First Sailing Ship Model?

Bernie,

The Revell HMAV Bounty is a good place to start. Other equally good kits of that era include the Revell HMS Victory and USS Constitution.  Airfix also offers a reasonably good HMS Victory. Heller offers the French ships-of-the-line Royal Louis, Superbe, and Glorieux, but they are more intricate. Unfortunately, that is the extent of plastic ship model kits of the Napoleonic era.

If you develop an interest in sailing ships of other eras, the Revell and Airfix lines are generally the best, although they are dated.  The Lindberg pirate ships also represent other, real ships and can be very good kits. However, no pirate ever operated ships-of-the-line or frigates!

The Revell  Beagle doesn't really represent anything, nor do many of Heller's kits.

I have taken to building some of the so-called HECEPOB kits as a way of extending Napoleonic ships in my collection. Mamoli's HMS Surprise is a great kit, as are the HMS Bellona and HMS Pandora. The Caldercraft line called "Nelson's Navy" offer arguably the best kits depicting ships of that era, if you can afford them.

I hope that this helps! Good luck!

Bill Morrison

Thanks for that Bill - I wasn't aware that HMS Surprise (the central ship of O'Brian's novels) was available as a kit - off to have a look now!!

the HMS surprise kits will be very pricey as they are a wood plank on bulkhead kit. before committing to a ship that expensive and that big, i would suggest trying a cheaper smaller model first. the airfix kits are good but even some of those kits are can go for around $60. for a first kit I would suggest the lindberg kits. they hvae recently been re-marketed as pirate ships. the Jolly Roger was the La Flore. blackbeards ship was the Soverign of the Seas and Sir Francis Drakes is the Golden Hind. they are good kits for around $20 or cheaper.

That would not be a bad idea.  The Mamoli HMS Surprise retails for between $300.00 and $500.00. It is a plank-on-bulkhead mixed media kit. Check out Model Expo to see the listing.  The Lindberg so-called "Jolly Roger" is a French frigate of the period that you are looking for, although it is debatable that it actually represents La Flore.  It is, however, a terrific generic kit of a Napoleonic era frigate.  In fact, I have seen reference to someone converting it to HMS Surprise, although I am not sure whether or not it was on  this site.

Bill Morrison

You really can't go wrong with the Revell Constitution.

bondoman

You really can't go wrong with the Revell Constitution.

While I agree it is maybe the best plastic ship model to start with, might it not be a little overwhelming to someone who has stated they are just getting their feet wet?  How does the Jolly Roger compare in complexity of build to the Revell Constitution?  I know at least some of you folks here have probably done both.  Since this is a Lindberg model, I have to presume it is at least slightly less complicated.  I have never seen the Jolly Roger, so I don't know.  But I have been working on the Revell Constitution off and on for a LONG time.  But then life keeps interfering too..... Just my

It's a tricky question really!

The small scale sailing ships such as Revell's Connie, the Airfix Victory, et.al. are very simple to put together- an afternoon's work for something like the Revell Constitution. (And they're cheap too). BUT their small scale (most cluster around 1/200) make rigging them with a degree of finess quite difficult!

Conversely, a larger scale plastic ship represents more of a challenge  from an assembly point of view (just the 'parts count' can be daunting), but are consequently much easier to rig in a detailed manner.

So I reason it's all about what you want out of your model?

Not quite 'Napoleonic', but I can add Revell's 'Dom Fernando II e Gloria'  to the list of suggestions. She is a Portugese 'double-banked' frigate of the 1840s, and a very nice kit. The ship was conservative design, and represents many features of the frigate as it had developed by 1815. Worth a look!

To me, the problem with the small Revell USS Constitution centers on the molded-on carronades and the molded-open gunport lids, coupled with the fact that the model represents the ship in the 1830's with the Andrew Jackson figurehead.  It is a very nice kit, though.

The Lindberg so-called Jolly Roger, aka La Flore, is a slightly larger kit with a full gun deck, no molded on carronades, and separately molded gunports lids that allow the modeler the choice of opening or closing. It, too, is a very detailed kit of a generic French frigate of the late 18th century. Whatever else one can say about Lindberg, they do make nice small-scale sailing ships.

My LHS has not yet received the Dom Fernando IIe Gloria; I cannot wait until they do! 

Bill Morrison

I'd suggest the 1:196 scale Revell Constitution kit (as opposed to its 1:96 scale big brother) as a good introduction to ship modeling.  It looks good straight out of the box, but also provides the opportunity for more advanced modelers to add more detail.

I'd also suggest looking at the Mini-Mamoli line of solid-hull wooden kits which offers a Constitution, Victory, and others.   If nothing else they offer a good introduction to wooden ship modeling.

Plank-on-frame wooden kits shouldn't enter in to the discussion.  I'd like to have a dollar for every beginning modeler who bought an expensive plank-on-frame kit as their first model ship and never finished it - I'd be quite wealthy today...

Mark

Someone made a plastic kit of a fishing schooner (help me out, guys).  A schooner has much simplified rigging compared to a full ship or even a bark, so I recommend not starting with a full ship if you can find something simpler.  Wait for your second model to go to a ship.

I also concur with the recommendation not to start with a wooden plank on bulkhead kit.  Start with a plastic kit and go to wooden models after you have a few plastic ones under your belt.

Another possibility is that Lindberg has re-released a shrimp boat and a trawler.  Not sailing ships but they do have a bit of rigging.  You learn the plastic construction and get just a taste of rigging.  Then on to Revell or Heller sailing ships.

Someone mentioned the small scale stuff.  Sure hated to see the 1:600 stuff disappear.

Pyro produced a plastic Gertrude L.Thebaud fishing schooner and something called the Independence brig of war, and an America. Revell produced a mid-sized America, but I can't recall any other similar plastic kits.  You can get the 1/600 kits on ebay.

Bill Morrison

Well, my suggestions are going to be a little different from those that have been offered so far.  In my opinion the best way to get into sailing ship modeling is with a relatively small ship in a relatively large scale.  The aspect of the hobby that provides the most frustration is surely rigging.  (That, really, is what makes a plastic sailing ship so different from any other kind of plastic model.)  The smaller the scale, and the bigger the ship, the more challenging the rigging is going to be.  On that basis, a big Victory or Constitution is most emphatically not a good newcomer's project - and a small-scale Victory or Constitution is worse.  I've known of dozens, if not hundreds, of cases in which modelers new to sailing ships have started with such a kit.  One of two things usually happens.  One - the modeler gets overwhelmed by the complexity of the project early in the proceedings and gives up.  Two - the modeler slogs away at the model for several months, and then suddenly discovers that the quality of his workmanship, and his standards of what's acceptable, have gone way up during that time.  So the work he did three months ago no longer satisfies him, and he abandons the project.

My strong recommendation (which almost everybody to whom I've offered this advice has, of course,  ignored) is to start with a project that  doesn't take long.  I say it makes more sense to spend a little money and a few weeks on a nice model of a small ship, as a learning exercise (which also, incidentally, will produce a mighty impressive display for the family mantle), than to sink several hundred dollars into a huge kit that will never get finished.

I enthusiastically second Jim's recommendation of the old Pyro fishing schooner Gertrude L. Thebaud.  (It's an old kit, but a basically sound one; it's appeared at various times under the Lifelike and Lindberg labels - sometimes under the slightly deceptive name "American Cup Racer."  But it's unmistakably a fishing schooner, and it makes a beautiful model.)  At about the same time (the early fifties) Pyro released a model of the American revenue cutter Roger B. Taney.  (It's also appeared in Lifelike and Lindberg boxes, labeled "Independence War Schooner."  Another old Pyro/Lifelike/Lindberg kit that's started quite a few modelers out in the sailing ship (or, in this case, sort-of-sailing ship) genre is the revenue cutter Harriet Lane (aka "Civil War Blockade Runner.") 

Taking off in a completely different direction, I can recommend three kits that represent ships from much earlier periods and that would make fine newcomer's projects:  the Viking ships from Revell and Emhar and the medieval cog marketed by Revell and Zvezda (same kit).  I built the Revell Viking ship a couple of years ago, and I'm extremely happy with it; though the instructions don't tell you so, it is in fact an extremely accurate model of the Gokstad Ship, one of the two major surviving Norse vessels.  I was almost done with that model when the Emhar kit was released.  In some ways it's superior to the Revell one (they both represent the Gokstad Ship), and Emhar also offers a couple of sets of figures to populate the finished model.  I haven't built the Revell/Zvezda cog, but it's gotten generally favorable reviews.  The price is kind of steep for what you get, but it strikes me as a near-ideal introduction to sailing ship modeling:  one mast (plus a bowsprit) and just enough rigging to provide a sound working familiarity with the subject without involving much repetition.  And what a lovely model could be built from that kit.

Hope all that provides at least a little food for thought.  Good luck.  It's a great hobby.

As someone relatively new to sailing ships, let me throw in my two cents worth. My inspiration was also the Aubrey-Maturin books. My first ship was the 1/196 Constitution. It was not that difficult and even with a fairly simplified rigging, it made an impressive piece to look at, and got the apropriate oohs and ahhs from friends. With the limited hobby shop choices, my next was the Lindberg "Captain Kidd" which I now know is based on the Wappen von Hamburg. As a larger more complicated ship, it stretched my skills a bit. By the time I reached the rigging though, I was frustrated by the limited and not very clear rigging diagrams. That started a search for more information that led me to these forums.

That progression seems to have worked for me, although I'm not sure I would do it again that way. Naw...I would. There was something satisfying in having those two ships sitting there, something that feeds my hunger to do more and better. I'm now going back and following Prof. Tilleys maxim of start with a small ship in a large scale. I'm now working on the Revell and Emhar viking ships.Next in line are the boats Bill just mentioned, the Gertrude Thebaud ( also sold as Americas Cup Racer by Lindberg), an old Bluenose from Aurora,and the War of Independence Schooner.

Once you get a few builds under your belt, personal taste will determine your later builds. I've fallen under the spell of the history of these ships and boat and spend as much time researching as building. I'm also building my skills to build something both atractive and accurate. For me this is fun, and you'll have to find what is fun for you.

As mentioned above, the Dom Fernando is a nice kit, and I believe it was mentioned in another thread, it's the same ship released by Zvezda as the Acheron. Trolling ebay is a good source for a lot of these boats, and at a price where you're not afraid to try new techniques. And whetever you choose, keep reading these forums, they are an amazing source of information. When you decide on a first ship, look it up in the forums and get some ideas on the build, and get to see what others have done. Good luck and have fun.

I believe that one should start with a ship that interests him/her and learn accordingly.  If the builder is interested in the ship, he/she is likely to finish it, albeit with perhaps a simplified rigging.  Should they decide that sailing ship modeling is for them, then go for the technical side of building simple rigs to learn the art and science of rigging; if sailing ship modeling is a passing interest, then they builder at least has a ship of interest.

Bill Morrison

Been doing some searching, and it appears that the Lindberg Jolly Roger is not available here in the UK.  Sad, as it looked very interesting, however postage costs from the USA double the price, so not really worth it.

I also can't find the Revell 1/196 Constitution - however the 1/150 United states is available.  Would that be comparable to the 1/196 Constitution?

Thanks for all of the advice so far!! 

OK, just found this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Zvezda-Acheron-French-Frigate-9034/dp/B002SJBYD8/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&m=A2AK6UJNOHRGWV&s=generic&qid=1285086819&sr=1-18

a 1/200 model of the French Frigate Acheron by a company called Zvezda.  I'm assuming that they have taken over somebodies old moulds, but as I can't find any detail about the kit I can't be sure!

It looks suitable for my needs - does anybody know anything about it?

Thanks!

That model of the United States does not represent the real ship.  It is a poor, smaller scale version of the Constitution. It was actually originally manufactured by  Monogram in the late 1970's/ early 1980's.   If you are interested in  the Jolly Roger or the 1/196 Constitution, I will be happy to send you one as a welcome to sailing ship modelling.

Bill Morrison

BernieS

Been doing some searching, and it appears that the Lindberg Jolly Roger is not available here in the UK.  Sad, as it looked very interesting, however postage costs from the USA double the price, so not really worth it.

I also can't find the Revell 1/196 Constitution - however the 1/150 United states is available.  Would that be comparable to the 1/196 Constitution?

Thanks for all of the advice so far!! 

The 1/150 United States is actually a simplified beginner's kit based on the 1/196 Constitution.  It has a single piece hull and the yards are molded to the masts  Also the long guns on the gun deck are actually molded to the deck inserts rather than being separate pieces.  It's not really 1/150 scale, it's something smaller.  Here's a photo of both on my workbench - the United States is the smaller one.

Mark

Pretty much, so far, the recommendation has been start small, start simple, start plastic. Very good recommendations. The costs are held low, and the learning curve is just a bit gentler. When you've achieved some comfort with the skills of rigging, and wish to progress to wood kits......start small, start simple. In all cases, enjoy. Learning is a journey to new and wondrous lands.

Thanks for that Mark - those two photographs make for a very telling comparison.  Must admit, it had never even occurred to me that gun carriages would be moulded into the deck - I'd always assumed that they were a seperate part!!

Actually they are moulded to the deck on the quarterdeck of the Constitution too, IIRC. But that's not a bad thing. And lousy models have the gun barrels plug into holes on the side, so at least these have open ports.

John is right about the rigging being a challenge, it would be. But that's true of the La Flore too. There's about 31 La Flore/ JR's on eBay ranging from $ 8 to $ 28. I'm frankly tempted to pick one up, except I can't lose focus on the current ship I'm working on.

In a similar way, in an earlier generation, I read my way through the Hornblower series. Lacking an available British frigate, I built the Revell Constitution (here we're talking about the little one) gave her a freehand yellow band right out of the Testors bottle, and I was one happy sailor. I named her HMS Caligula.

One of the simpler models to rig would be Revell's Golden Hind, Sir Francis Drake's ship. It's also one of the very best plastic ship model kits ever sold. They come up on eBay pretty often, just keep your eyes open, don't settle for any other maker, and be prepared to spend $ 30 - $ 50. But building the hull up is fun, and the figures are a treat, and there's lots of decorative painting to do.

I would recommend from these, as is in production at the moment:

Revell:

Frigate "Dom Fernando II e Glória" 1:200;

Whaling ship "Charles W. Morgan" 1:110;

HMAV "Bounty" 1:110.

Revell - Monogram:

USS Bonhomme Richard 1:132.

Airfix:

Bark "Endeavour" 1:120.

Lindberg:

Jolly Roger Pirate Ship (in real this is french La Flore) 1:130.

I have just ordered the Zvezda 1/200 French Frigate "Acheron".

At 440 mm long it should give me plenty of room to work, it is apparently moulded from new tooling, and as a French frigate, it may easily be captured, given a Nelson chequer, & brought into Royal Navy service!!

Newbie question - is there much available in the way of detailing for models such as these - canon barrels, pulley blocks, hatch covers etc?  A few years back I built HMS Hood with etched brass detailing - it made a huge difference over the moulded plastic.

Thanks again,

Bernie

Zvezda's "Acheron" is the same model as Revell's "Dom Fernando II e Glória" 1:200 and this is not new tooling, becouse original model was isued by Occidental as "Dom Fernando II e Gloria" 1:200, Zvezda and Revell simply reissues this model.

But that doesn't matter, choice is good.

The Archeron is a fictional ship, whereas the Dom Fernando II e Gloria is a real ship that still exists in Portugal. Does anyone know how close the model represents the real ship?

As for the Revell 1/196 Constitution, the major drawbacks for me are the molded-on carronade slides and the molded-on gunport lids.  It is an otherwise excellent kit.

I must observe that the response this thread has generated illustrates that there is interest in plastic sailing ship models.  I wish the manufacturers would sit up and take notice!

Bill Morrison

Not entirely acurate. French "Archeron" - of course, fiction. There was HMS Acheron (English ship), 8 gun bomb vessel, purchased in 1803 and captured and burnt by the Frech ships Hortense and Incorruptible.

By the words "good choice" i mean good model for beginner. Zvezda names this kit as French Archeron, in reality this is Portugal Dom Fernando II e Gloria, as this kit is named by Revell.

At first look model represents the real Dom Fernando pretty well, but i have'nt compare this model hull parts with Dom Fernando plans.

BernieS

Newbie question - is there much available in the way of detailing for models such as these - canon barrels, pulley blocks, hatch covers etc?  A few years back I built HMS Hood with etched brass detailing - it made a huge difference over the moulded plastic.

Thanks again,

Bernie

OH MY!!!  Is there anything available for detailing?  Anything, and everything is available in nearly any scale you want!   Here are a couple of the most popular places to try looking at.

http://www.modelexpo-online.com/

http://www.bluejacketinc.com/

There are many others too.  I am sure others here can give a more comprehensive list!

tucchase

BernieS:

Newbie question - is there much available in the way of detailing for models such as these - canon barrels, pulley blocks, hatch covers etc?  A few years back I built HMS Hood with etched brass detailing - it made a huge difference over the moulded plastic.

Thanks again,

Bernie

 

OH MY!!!  Is there anything available for detailing?  Anything, and everything is available in nearly any scale you want!   Here are a couple of the most popular places to try looking at.

http://www.modelexpo-online.com/

http://www.bluejacketinc.com/

There are many others too.  I am sure others here can give a more comprehensive list!

I can endorse the two sources tucchase mentioned - but with one large caveat.  To my knowledge there are no aftermarket parts specifically designed for plastic sailing ship kits. 

Aircraft, armor, and modern warship modelers have the luxury of a vast range of cast metal, cast resin, turned brass, and photo-etched metal sets specifically designed for popular plastic kits:  a dozen sets for a 1/48 P-51D, lord knows how many options for a 1/35 Sherman tank, two or three for a 1/350 Iowa-class battleship, etc., etc., etc.  Nobody makes such things for plastic sailing ships.  I once had an e-mail exchange with a manufacturer of aftermarket parts for warships, and gave him a list of sailing ship components that I thought would translate well into photo-etched metal.  He very courteously gave me a list of reasons why he'd decided not to expand in that direction.

There is, however - as tucchase noted - a vast range of fittings and other components out there designed primarily for scratchbuilders and those working from wood kits.  I'm a big fan of the deadeyes and blocks in the Bluejacket range; they're cast in britannia metal, and they work just as well for plastic kits as for wood ones. 

Model Expo sells parts that are included in its own Model Shipways range (generally very good kits), and hundreds that are made by the HECEPOB manufacturers.  (HECEPOB = Hideously Expensive Continental European Plank-On-Bulkhead.  The HECEPOB manufacturers include such firms as Mamoli, Artisania Latina, Corel, Mantua, and Occre.  There are exceptions, but the vast majority of their kits have little to do with the hobby of scale ship modeling.  In the unlikely event that anybody's interested, a Forum search on the word  "HECEPOB" will produce quite a few enthusiastic rants on the subject - from me and from others.)  Some of the fittings those companies produce are ok; others are awful.  ("Stern lanterns" with pink-tinted plastic in them; "carved decorations" that are grossly out of proportion, etc.) 

Gun barrels can be particularly frustrating.  In the world of modern warship kits you can buy beautiful turned brass barrels specifically - and accurately - designed for many, if not most, major capital ship classess in the two most popular scales:  1/350 and 1/700.  If you're into sailing ships you may luck out and find barrels that will work for your model - or you may not.  Bluejacket, for instance, offers nine sizes of "old style" gun barrels that would be appropriate for ships of the very late seventeenth, eighteenth, and very early nineteenth centuries.  That may sound like quite a few, but a quick look establishes that only the three or four smallest ones would work for any plastic sailing ship kit on the market - and none of them would work on the small-scale kits, like the Revell 1/192 Constitution or the old Lindberg La Flore, that have been discussed earlier in this thread.  The HECEPOB manufacturers' guns tend to have highly dubious proportions - and, again, to be pretty big for most plastic kits.

The good news on that particular front is that gun barrels happen to be one subject that the plastic kit manufacturers have represented pretty well over the years.  The large-scale kits (the Revell 1/96 Constitution, the Heller 1/100 Victory, etc.) have barrels molded in halves, which present a problem in that the joints between them need to be dealt with (and when you're talking about fifty or a hundred gun barrels, that does amount to something).  But the guns in most smaller scale plastic sailing ship kits (there are, of course, some exceptions) are generally at least as good as anything the wood kit manufacturers can offer.

warshipguy

Pyro produced a plastic Gertrude L.Thebaud fishing schooner and something called the Independence brig of war, and an America. Revell produced a mid-sized America, but I can't recall any other similar plastic kits.  You can get the 1/600 kits on ebay.

Bill Morrison

Ah, the Thebaud is the one I remember.