Plastic Fluyt Model

Forecastles were a common feature on ships of many nations.  Not all ships had forecastles, though.

i can imagine this was king gustav  the 12th since he was a warchief rather than king,my nation lost great amount of territory under his command,and sweden lost its position as a great power or nation.

CoreTech

it seems to me that the king was somewhat desperate to get more firepower.
understandable since both the danes and the germans threatened to attack the country. 

Sweden at the moment have lost Oliva battle (November 28, 1627) to Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth (Polish - Lithuanian Kingdom). In that battle Sweden have lost Tigern (flagship, galleon, 22 guns, 320 t, captured) and Solen (galleon, 38 guns, 300 t - scuttled by her own crew, rather than allowing it to be captured as Tigern).

Not only Danes and Germans threatened to attack the Sweden at the moment, but Polen and Lithuanian too.

i dont think king gustav even considered the consequences of a second full gun deck.
tragic that my nations biggest and most magnificent ships has sunk allmost directly after completion,wasa sunk beacause of the wind,kronan exploded in the battle of kalmar.
seems like the world doesnt want us sweds to have big ships? 
atleast we can brag with having the most decorated warship in the world.
now im going of topic but it seems to me that the king was somewhat desperate to get more firepower.
understandable since both the danes and the germans threatened to attack the country. 

And finally engraving by Henry Hondius of Le Saint Louis (Le Grand Saint Louis) dated 1626.

If Vasa was indeed projected first as single complete gun-deck and only later projected as two complete gun-decks and first order was to made a "substitute" to Tre Kroner with its basic hull shapes that can explain why forecastle of Vasa was so "small".

I think Bjornstrom's arguments in his book are very well considered. I agree that there was probably a direct, or stongly implied order from the 'top' to make sure the Vasa was more powerful than her direct rivals, and whilst it is true that there is just no evidence to support it, I think it is important to note that the Privy Council inquiry into the loss of the ship did not find any one party at fault. It was probably very well known that it was King Gustavus' direct involvement had led to a lot of problems with the stability of the ship, and like modern politics, this would be tremendously embarresing if recorded officially. (Even absolute monarchiesin the early-modern period were subject to checks and balances from privy councillors) I imagine the whole matter was quietly dropped...

Just conjecture, but seems plausible enough to me!

Will

Yes, You are right - book i mentioned, has information, that in documents of the seventeenth century ship was called Vasa, Wasan, Vasen, Vhasa, Vhasen, Vhassan, Vazan, Whasa, Whassan, Wazan, die Whasse etc.

By the way - author of the book has theory: "I believe - but naturally cannot demonstrate - that new ship was intended to be bigger than Tre Kronor, which was a sound ship, and that instead of carrying of twelve-pounders on her single complete gun-deck, she should carry twenty-four-pounders. I believe that her flat had been completed when the king received alarming information that the new Danish ship was to have two complete gun-decks, and that he then personally ordered that the new warship should be a two-decker, with twelve-pounders on the upper gun-deck".

wasa can be just as correct as vasa,since the old swedish often used w and f instead of v.
for example,av means of,and in old swedish this was spelled af. 

There is a good book about Wasa or more correct - Vasa: Bjorn Landstrom's "The Royal Warship Vasa". Book has usefull information about Vasa "puzzles" i.e. hull shape etc. Author write about connections to Le Saint Louis (book has information and about this ship) and possible too connection to Danish warship Sancte Sophia build by David Sinclair (Scotsman) in British manner.

thats possible.
well if that deck wasnt added maybe the wasa would've been docked in stockholm harbor rater then beeing put together piece by piece inside a museum. 
or maybe it would've been less complete beacause it was destroyed in a battle haha. 

CoreTech

thanks for the presentations,a shame that they aren't in production anymore,i'd love to build the hms prince or saint louis.
does somebody know why the designers of wasa removed the forecastle?
if they even drew one from the beginning.
first i thought it was a feature of the dutch ships but its not... 

The original design of the Wasa may have had a forecastle. However when the extra gun deck was added the forcastle probably had to go for stability, though a lot of good it may have done in the end.... That would be my guess.

thanks for the presentations,a shame that they aren't in production anymore,i'd love to build the hms prince or saint louis.
does somebody know why the designers of wasa removed the forecastle?
if they even drew one from the beginning.
first i thought it was a feature of the dutch ships but its not... 

Billyboy

I have built the HMS Prince (also very rare now!) and Royal Sovereign- both excellent models, and show a very close affinity to the cnontemporary models that survive in museums.

Agree - perfect kits. I have these kits too, kit's presentations:

Royal Sovereign (Sovereign of the Seas)

http://kvaksiuk.com/forum-lt/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=287&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=50#p4172

HMS Prince

http://kvaksiuk.com/forum-lt/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=287&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=50#p4268

Billyboy

 I wonder whether airfix did similar research for St. Louis

Can't comfirm that information. When i try to find more information about The Saint Louis or more precise - Le Saint Louis, i have found only few engravings of that ship, one of them still with Dutch flag. Model is identical to these engravings.

Wojszwillo,

Thanks for the out of box images of the Airfix St. Louis,  I have never seen the sprues of this kit. It has been out of production for a while. It looks quite good. That generation of airfix 17th century ships was, within the constraints of contemporary knowledge of the ships involved, very nice representations. I have built the HMS Prince (also very rare now!) and Royal Sovereign- both excellent models, and show a very close affinity to the cnontemporary models that survive in museums. I wonder whether airfix did similar research for St. Louis?

Will

One more kit of Dutch desig ship:

The Saint Louis 1:144, Airfix (not the same kit as Heller's The Saint Louis) - a Dutch design warship built for the French navy.

Kit is out of production and very rare.

You can see my presentation of that kit on Lithuanian modeler forum:

http://kvaksiuk.com/forum-lt/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=287&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=10#p3462

it is very similiar to wasa...but as you said one less gallery,and i think it got more of a galleon look.
but maybe wasa would've looked the same with a forecastle?
thats a funny thing,wasa hasn't got any forecastle,im curious about why.
and that diorama was AMAZING,that must have taken a veeeeeery long time.
absolutely stunning.
as you said,many fluyts,and i think i saw the seven provinces....

You might want to think about building a wooden kit.  

a shame that these aren't available (fluyts) since they're beautiful ships in my opinion.
Im very familiar with the ship and features since i made som research on it after discovering it on the game.
Woodburner,i wouldn't count wasa as a dutch ship but thats a matter of oponion since its dutch design (wich you can clearly see,the wasa also got some features of the fluyt)
but i would like too ad one ship.
i believe its translated the seven provinces,a dutch man of war and are in some ways similiar to wapen von hamburg but probably more decorated.
is the wapen von hamburg still in production and by what brand?
the batavia is still in production,or atleast still buyable on revell's site.
the wasa is indeed a very beautiful kit,a little difficult to get the two hull parts together but other then that its great. 

Rasmus 

     CoreTech:   This is a picture of a fluyt, which was a very popular merchant ship of the 17th century Dutch merchant fleet.

     The standard fluyt was designed to maximize available cargo space with minimum crew members to operate the ship. The were so seaworthy, that some could be made to sail backwards if the occasion required this maneuver.

    The fluyt is credited with enhancing the Dutch competitiveness for the international trade in the Baltic and the Dutch East India Company. This type of vessel became so popular, that most of the European maritime nations adopted this design for their trading ships.

         Montani semper liberi !   Happy modeling to all and every one of you

                         Crackers                     

Too bad there's nothing in plastic. 

I think I am correct in writing that there are no plastic models of fluyts. Not an easy hull shape to scratchbuild I'd wager.

A Fluyt is dutch terminology for a hull that is round at the stern (i.e the wales meet the sternpost) and then rapidly narrows above the waterline. This meant that the hull had a pear-shaped cross-section along its whole length. Other distinctive features caused by the stern shape included a narrow superstrucure and the rudder head situated outside the vessel. The reason behind the peculiar shape is partly due to the Dutch arranged frames at bows and sterns, and allegedly partly due to taxation laws that allowed ships with narrower decks to pay less.

Batavia was a larger ship than the average fluyt, and not built with a round stern, but a transom stern (i.e the wales don;t carry along all the way around the to the sternpost, but instead they terminate away from the sternpost, at a piece of wood called the fashion piece.) The Revell kit is a good kit. One of the better small-scale sailing ship kits out there in my opinion.

Other than Batavia, the only other plastic ship of 17th century Dutch vessel I can recall is the long out of production Pyro kit of a Dutch state yacht. It is really quite rare, so I have never seen the kit iself. I hear tell it is quite accurate.

Maybe there are some card kits of 17th century Dutch vessels?

Will