New Plank-on-Bulkhead Company from China

Bill, this is an old problem. I would not buy from those people on principle. See http://modelshipworld.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13311&highlight=chinese+kit .

On a somewhat related issue, a friend of mine sat down to eat at a restaurant over there recently. When he was handed the menu, he noticed that the logo of the restaurant was one we designed a number of years ago for a golf community in Arizona. I get emails pretty regularly from China promising us huge jobs to design large buildings, if only we'd provide a portfolio of our work first.

becareful ordering wood products from China. Io import china has to chemically treat the wood for insects. if you live in CA this is strictly monitored with CARB compliance. however the treatment process can also cause the wood to warp from the amount of time it was treated and how much time the product spent in a shipping container. if it travels via the ocean count on 3-5 weeks spent locked up in a hot metal container.  China is very good a producing replicas. so the quality can be very hit or miss. I have bought knock off items in my china travels and some have been very good quality. some never made it longer than a week or two.

Gentlemen,

I understand the problem, and that was my initial impression. However, the model of the Confederacy challenges the assumption of piracy in that no other company makes that model. Also, the stated scales of several of the kits differs from those of the European models.Hence, this post.

I think I will download photos of the completed models for a side-by-side comparison .  .  .

Bill

I have to echo the "be careful" advice.In another forum related to model railroad, a couple of members got

taken by a scam from Chinathat started with some pics of interesting model trains advertised for sale at very good prices. The pics of the models had actually been stolen from another website, then used to advertise non-existant models. The guys that ordered/paid got a box with a cheap knockoff wristwatch inside. When they contacted the seller, they were given an 'apology' and told to keep the watch instead (worth about 2 dollars) as the models were 'no longer in stock'There was nothing they could do.

Be careful

BTW: the pics had been stolen from the website of another forum member and still had his copyright notice on them

Bill, The difference in scale would be a simple accomplishment; it's no trick at all to re-loft the plans. As for the Confederacy, Chuck Passaro has already designed plans for her for a pending issue by Model Shipways. I don't kbow how the Chinese might have obtained them, but I put nothing past them.  

Bottom line, I have heard over at MSW that there are ezamples that gave been determined to be exact copies of kits marketed in the west, and even if there are occasional honest exceptions, I would not buy from that market on principal until the government of the People's Republic takes an effective hand in stopping the thievery. I spent several years in central Asia, In an area where it was near impossible to buy any manufactured goods other than shoddy Chinese copies of western products, complete with forgeries of the original manufacturers labels.   

Here's another thread from MSW on the subject, started last February: http://modelshipworld.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11071&highlight=chinese+kits

I failed to mention, in the thread I just cited, Chuck Passaro mentions the source of the Confederacy plans, and yes, they also are pirated.

I have no knowledge of this particular situation.  And I'm just as appalled as anybody else by the acts of piracy that seem to be so common among Chinese hobby companies (and all sorts of other Chinese businesses). 

I do think, though, that we need to be careful about tarring all Chinese hobby manufacturers with the same brush.  Let's remember that Trumpeter and Dragon - two of the best plastic warship kit manufacturers in the world - are headquartered in China.  Several other Chinese firms are starting to make a big impact on the western scale modeling scene (think HobbyBoss, etc.).  And I have the impression that several of the big western companies routinely have their molds made, and their sprues squirted out, in China. 

I've bumped into a number of heartfelt pleas on the web to "quit buying Chinese."  The truth of the matter is, for better or worse, that an American who refuses to buy anything made in China will have a hard time getting along in the world these days.

That being said, I'll await with great interest any further information about this new POB company that Bill has found.  It sure sounds suspicious - but the world could certainly use another genuine scale model kit manufacturer.

Gentlemen,

Thank you!  I abhor piracy in any form and agree that this company should be avoided if they pirated kits or plans. It is incredible to me that anyone could condone such actions.

Bill

Tilley, you may have to invent a new acronym!

enemeink - CARB compliance refers to composite wood products, not to solid wood products. I work in the USDA as an export certification specialist and very familiar with both the import and export regulations on solid wood products. We are never sure what chemicals the Chinese would mix in to those resins that act as binding agents. Solid wood packing materials are also subject to an International Standard ISPM 15.

The main treatment is heat treatment, its the same as kiln drying (ever notice the KD symbol on lumber?), and the object of the slow heating is to get the wood to a moisture content below 18% with an internal core temperature of 56 degrees C for 30 minutes.Otherwise the wood can be fumigated with Methyl Bromide as an alternate treatment.  We do have problems with the certification from China, corruption is running rampant, but it shouldn't matter so much for the wood used in these kits. The thinest of the cuts of these wood strips will show any insect present.

The pests of concern are usually insects such as the Asian Longhorn Beetle, Emerald Ash Borer or other of their kin from China. China has concerns about the microscopic Pine Wood Nematode from North America, and Europe has concerns about the Oak Wilt Fungus from the Eastern part of North America.

Back to kiln drying, ever wonder why a 2x4 is not 2" x 4"? It was when it was green lumber, but after kiln drying it shrinks with the loss of moisture.

Mike T.

telsono

Back to kiln drying, ever wonder why a 2x4 is not 2" x 4"? It was when it was green lumber, but after kiln drying it shrinks with the loss of moisture.

Mike T.

While there may be some loss of dimension by drying, I believe most of the loss of dimension from 2" x 4" to 1-1/2" x 3-1/2" is because, before or after drying (depending whether it will be sold as Green, or KD), the lumber is milled on all four sides to the final dimension.  You can buy both green, and Kiln Dried lumber in these same dimensions (and what a difference in the weight of each!).  You can also get what is called "Dimension Lumber" that is still 2" x 4", and I think I have also heard it referred to as "Rough Sawn" Lumber.  Usually directly from a sawmill, and usually much cheaper than what you get from the home stores.

tucchase

telsono:

Back to kiln drying, ever wonder why a 2x4 is not 2" x 4"? It was when it was green lumber, but after kiln drying it shrinks with the loss of moisture.

Mike T.

 

While there may be some loss of dimension by drying, I believe most of the loss of dimension from 2" x 4" to 1-1/2" x 3-1/2" is because, before or after drying (depending whether it will be sold as Green, or KD), the lumber is milled on all four sides to the final dimension.  You can buy both green, and Kiln Dried lumber in these same dimensions (and what a difference in the weight of each!).  You can also get what is called "Dimension Lumber" that is still 2" x 4", and I think I have also heard it referred to as "Rough Sawn" Lumber.  Usually directly from a sawmill, and usually much cheaper than what you get from the home stores.

nailed it, a 2x4 has been 1 1/2 x 3 1/2 since i was a kid. Rough Sawn is a dimensional lumber available at lumber yards not at the h depot or the like.

dr

tucchase

 

telsono:

 

Back to kiln drying, ever wonder why a 2x4 is not 2" x 4"? It was when it was green lumber, but after kiln drying it shrinks with the loss of moisture.

Mike T.

 

 

While there may be some loss of dimension by drying, I believe most of the loss of dimension from 2" x 4" to 1-1/2" x 3-1/2" is because, before or after drying (depending whether it will be sold as Green, or KD), the lumber is milled on all four sides to the final dimension.

Here in the woods we can still buy a true 2x4 in redwood, but it costs about $ 3.00 a linear foot.

Here's my $0.02

Back in my far distant youth I supported myself through school in large part by working for a large mill (Potlatch Forests, Inc.) in Idaho. I worked as a "ratchet setter" on the saw carriage, responsible for adjusting the cut dimensions under the direction of the sawyer. The lumber (Fir) is always sawn to the nominal dimension. Most of it is then moved to the "planer" where I also worked on the "offbearing" where it was planed to its final dimensions of 1 5/8" X 3 5/8" +/-1/8". Coming off the offbearing the finished lumber is checked by a grader who marks it in accordance with its conformance and general quality. The minor portion of the lumber that is to be kiln dried is always done so after the saw and before giong to the planer.     

The questions remain . . . Is Z.H.L. a company that has pirated these kits or is it a legitimate company creating new and affordable kits? How can we the consumers tell?  I am unwilling to assume that a company is illegitimate simply because it is Chinese.

Bill 

Bill;

if Z.H.L. is selling the same models as sold by these expensive European companies, to be sure they are pirated copies. Fittings and other parts may be substandard and made with products not allowed in the trade anymore (containing heavy metals, etc.).

Sorry for hijacking your thread over this wood shrinkage issue.

While in college I did take a class in Wood Science (Forestry Dept.). Shrinkage was explained by the loss of moisture within the wood. Different woods act differently, for example Redwood shrinks at half the rate of Douglass-Fir. The US forest Service has numerous tables on the subject, see the "Wood Handbook Ag. Handbook No. 72"

Mike T.

Mike, just to put a lid on this (hopefully), nobody would seriously make an "issue" over whether or not wood shrinks when dried. In the case of Douglas-fir, there are several varieties but ho fir shrinks radially more than a maximum of about 5% from green to bone dry. With a 2X4 that comes to about 3/16" over the 4" dimension. The major reduction in dimension occurs through the planer, amounting to about 12.5% or 1/2" over the 4" dimension. If the lumber is to be dried in the kiln it is done prior to planing and the planer setting is absolute; that is, it's not set to refer to the existing dimension of the board. The lumber therfore, dry or not, comes out of the planer with the same dimensions and will remain that way except for what little moisture may go away through air drying before use.  

No expert here, but by observation these things usually come to light when one of the experts compares the more recent kit to one they are familiar with, and the quirks of one are repeated in the next.

2x4's are cut way undersize to begin with. After that they probably shrink too.  3 1/2 x 1 5/8 is the standard dimension if I remember right. I was shocked when I first measured one. Thanks, Paul V Carpenter

2x4's are rough cut to correct dimensions but planed to current size. the framing of our house built over 120 years ago still measure the correct dimensions.

Here's the table for finished lumber sizes. Rich explained the process well.

http://www.borealforest.org/lumber/index.htm

invisible table? is it made in china which is why it cannot be seen?

I wonder when Professor Tilley will include these Chinese kits in the HECEPOB catagory ?

   Montani semper liberi !      Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                             Crackers                                    

Okay, now that we have had our lesson in carpentry, let's get back to ship modeling.   

If we are to use the standard that any ship model kit that has been produced elsewhere and is now being produced in the PRC is pirated, we would have to include the quite a few Trumpeter and Dragon 1/700 scale ships such as Bismarck and Tirpitz.  Z.H.L. produces the San Felipe and Soleil Royal, both kits produced by Mantua. Are they the same kits?  Z.H.L. also produces other kits that have not been produced by other manufacturers, such as the Confederacy. How does that equate into the piracy issue?

Looking at the manufacturers' photos of both San Felipes, they do not appear to me to be the same kit. The Z.H.L. kit seems to have more detail overall and is proportioned slightly differently. I would appreciate it if others would compare and contrast them and comment.

Again, are these pirated kits? How do we, the consumers, tell the difference?  Innuendo is one thing, proof is another.  I would not like to purchase a rip-off, but I would not like to spend $1,000 either if I can spend $300.00 instead!

Bill

Bill, Aside from the smoking gun of Chinese piracy which I can testify to having been a victim of it on numerous occasions, is the larger issue of how Chinese manufacturers can undercut prices so drastically. I have a good friend, a PRC national from Shen Zhen, which is a manufacturing center. She's an exporter, and very familiar with the problems we discuss here. I asked her about the stories we hear about the exploitation of labor in the 124 Nike factories in the PRC. She says it's greatly understated, and shoukl include sexual exploitation of female workers (including minors), arbitrary punishment by way of witholding of wages, perilous working conditions, phusical abuse, and wages that don't provide an adequate living in the current environment. I do not exaggerate.

When you spend your $300 you might consider the sacrifice other good people make to afford you that economy (including possibly kids like yours). The piracy and the labor issues do exist and by most accounts I'm aware of, are rampant. I suppose that there may  be Chinese manufacturers innocent of these abuses, but until their government steps up to the bar and exercises adequate control I for one will continue to avoid supporting their behavior in so far as possible, and that includes shopping at Walmart. 

There are Chinese laws against these practices. They are ignored, because they are not enforced, and that;s the reason behind this Chinese marketing miracle.        

Bill's points are certainly well taken.  I haven't seen any photos of the models in question - and I'm not at all sure that such photos would help much in determining the origins of the kits.  Unless Z.H.L. is using the same photos as the companies from which it's pirated (certainly a possibility), there's no easy, definitive way to tell whether two finished wood ship models built by different people were based on the same kit.  (You may get lucky and be able to identify something distinctive, like a figurehead or transom ornament, but it's entirely possible for two modelers working from the same kit to produce results that don't look at all like each other in a photograph.

The precise definition of "piracy" in cases like this also has a little wiggle room in it.  Model Expo, for instance, has, as I understand it, obtained license from Amati to sell a slightly simplified version of its H.M.S. Belerophon kit - at a considerably lower price.  Amati is a well-established HECEPOB company that saw the light a few years ago.  Its selling a series of Nelson-period British warship kits that were designed by a gentleman who used to work for the British firm Calder Craft, aka Jotika - which, as I understand it, has brought legal action against the gentleman in question for...well, for I'm not sure what.  The bottom line is that the ethical and legal ramifications of this stuff are pretty hard to unravel.

Unless and until I have good reason to think I'm not going to be ripped off, I certainly won't buy anything with the Z.H.L. label on it.  (In practical terms, it's highly unlikely that I'll buy any of the kits we've been discussing in any case; $300 is more than I'm willing to pay for a kit of any sort, except under really extraordinary circumstances.)  It seems reasonable to expect that, if Z.H.L is a legitimate company selling high-quality merchandise for legitimate prices, we should see some ads for its kits on the websites of some of the well-known dealers, and in the pages of the magazines. 

Oh - and HECPOB stands for Hideously Expensive Continental European Plank-On-Bulkhead.  Since Z.H.L.'s kits appparently are relatively modestly priced, and made in China, the acronym doesn't apply. 

I've taken the "cheap" rout and built a pritated kit of an RC plane.  The parent copy retailed for $150 and the knockoff for $30.   I spent way more in time and replacement materials, not to mention the planes were off dimensionally, then what I would have spent if I bought the original.

Lesson learned,  I got what I paid for and to me I would have been better of with the $2 watch.

Gentlemen,

First, allow me to say that I agree that pirating other manufacturer's products is reprehensible and deserves punishment and boycott.  Child labor, exploitation of women, and slave labor are even more despicable! I will in no way buy any product if it can be shown to have been pirated or to have violated human rights in their labor practices!  Indeed, as a high school teacher of history, civics, economics, and international studies, I have used the Chinese proclivity towards these issues in many lessons.

That said, does it follow that all Chinese products are rip-offs of other nation's manufacturers or violate human rights among their work forces?  Of course not!  As John Tilley remarked earlier, there are two highly respected Chinese model companies that are setting new standards of excellence in plastic model kits . . . Trumpeter and Dragon.  Nobody has accused them of pirating others' kits or of using slave or child labor.  Let's compare their prices with those of equivalent manufacturers from other nations.

The Japanese company Hasegawa has followed Trumpeter and Dragon in manufacturing 1/350 scale warship kits.  Hasegawa's battleships cost approximately $300.00 to $350.00 while Trumpeter's and Dragon's cost around $110.00  to $150.00.  Please note the 3:1 ratio between the kits produced by the Japanese and the Chinese.  Additionally, there is an almost 4:1 cost ratio when comparing Hasegawa's Akagi with Trumpeter's U.S. carrier kits!  The Japanese Tamiya kits cost less; yet, they are twice as much as the exact same kits produced by Academy, a Korean company.

Panart (Mantua) produces a kit of San Felipe that costs approximately $1,000.00. The Chinese company produces a larger scale version of San Felipe for around $300.00, again showing the same 3:1 cost ratio.  Z.H.L. also produces kits of ships that no other manufacturer produces!  How can those kits possibly have been pirated?

Neither Trumpeter or Dragon have been accused of using substandard materiels in their kits. In fact, having built many of their kits, both set high standards of quality in their materials.  Yet, the insinuation in this thread is that Z.H.L. is using substandard materials in their kits because they are probably pirated anyway, therefore they must be avoided because they are Chinese and use unfair labor practices, child labor and exploit women!  Gentlemen, these seem like unfair conclusions at best!

Why can we argue that neither Trumpeter or Dragon pirate their kits, nor do they use slave or child labor, exploit women, or generally use unfair labor practises but argue that Z.H.L. does on the basis of Z.H.L. being a Chinese manufacturer?  Their price ratio seems to be that of other respected Chinese companies. How can we prove it one way or the other?

 Again, I will not purchase a pirated kit if it can be shown to have been pirated, to have used unfair labor practices, or exploited women and children!

Bill Morrison