wheres the ships

We are quite the company of odd souls, aren't we?

My hair is still short--but, after that last stripe (O-5) I had to buy all new hats and cipher that I'll need another five years' in to make full-ish retirement (unless this Second Depression does me in <sigh>)

I used to have time; used to model all the time.  I even have quite a collection of half-built HEEPOB kits all frustrated by either missing parts or flagrant inaccuracies (insert all of Prof T's rants here, and a couple of my own).

I feel almost the babe in this midst, for being a mere 50--yet, the those years weigh.  Just as having 29 of the brightest kids a commander could wish eager to Do Good can also wear.

Slainte to you all and a happy New Year far better than any of us could imagine.  Fair winds and following seas to each and every one of you.

Well I seem to be in good company here, having passed 60 this past summer. I too have shoulder length hair and a beard I started growing the day I got out of the army.I too enjoy shaking up the youngsters. I have to admit I am jealous of the long background several of you have with nautical subjects.As a WW2 vet my father had shelves of books on the war, so most of my reading was on ground and air combat. My modeling subjects seemed to include everything but sailing ships.

  A year or so ago I got the itch to try modelling again, and started where I left off with muscle cars and WW2 aircraft. Then I started reading the Aubrey/Maturin books and picked up the small Revell Constitution. Thats all it took to get me hooked.In a way I am a beginner and have felt that lack of books and models to start with. I've gone through about a dozen books now, and still feel like I know little, and find new things in every book. I liked the idea of practicums or "walk arounds" and wonder if something like that can be done on the internet at a smaller cost than publishing a hard copy book. I would be more than happy to pay $5-$10 to download something like that.

I too have the time and patience problems with my building. I do have the 3d vision, but my problem is scale. My woodworking tool of choice is more often a chainsaw than a pair of tweezers. I guess fine motor control is not one of my qualities. The fine work on kits is about my limit. Space is a problem, but one I have seen overcome.In my early teens my family befriended an elderly couple living in a 26' travel trailer. He was scratch building a model of the Santissima Trinidad of over 4' long. He built a special box attached to the back of the trailer to hold it when they were moving. The tradeoff was it took him over ten years, and wasn't completed till they moved into a house. To this day I remember him showing me the plans for the bread and butter hull and the miniature fittings and cannons he had gotten fron Europe. It took 40 years of percolating till I built a ship model, but I think of Mr. Switzer every time I sit down at my workbench.As a side note his great grandfather was James Buchanon Eads, who among other things built the city class ironclads during the Civil War.

I know I'll never produce the showpieces some of you have, but I try to make each kit better than the one before it, and learn more history on the way.

Happy new year to all.

I doubt this is a case of life following art, but when I was a boomer kid, I was bonkers about model airplanes and model ships. Got lots of books from the library about both (they let me into the adult section - they could tell a junkie). I really doubt it's a complete accident that 20 years later I finished a PhD in military history. And my last book was about WWII air warfare. Semi-retired now, so at least no model I confront from here on in can do serious damage to American education.

Best on the New Year

Eric

Gentlemen,

I tell my students that I am 57 "going on younger than you are!"  I am a grandfather of four grandsons, have shoulder-length hair, and perform in a rock band called "Midlife Crisis!"  It takes a moment for them to figure it out.

John credited ship modeling as the foundation for his future endeavors and career.  My story is similar. I heard Johnny Horton sing "Sink the Bismarck" when I was six. Additionally, my father was a career man in the Navy, as were my grandfather, two uncles, and greatgrandfather, great-great grandfather, etc.  Then, I found the Pyro Table Top Navy series of ship models as well as their sailing ship kits.  I could afford them with my 50 cents per week allowance, so I quickly built up my fleet.  That was in 1960.  My ship model building led to a lifelong intense study of naval and maritime history, my own Navy career, and my second career of teaching high school history.  My first Master's thesis was "Innovations of the Confederate States Navy," and I had taken a summer of leave from the Navy to study at the Munson Institute at the Mystic Seaport Museum for graduate credit in American Maritime Studies.  All because of that first introduction to naval history and ship modeling.

Unfortunately, there seems to be little available to hook a child's interest. Model kits are far too expensive for them, and they have become very complex.  Therefore, I have bought every Pyro kit several times over to introduce my grandchildren to ship modeling, as well as the earlier Revell kits, sailing ships and modern ships.  I have built up a collection of kits that I have labelled as being for the grandkids.  I hope that they develop an interest!

This means that there needs to be books written for beginners, intermediate and advanced ship modeling, including sailing ship modeling.

Anyway, we all have our dreams!  (Wow! My entries are beginning to grow as long as Johns! 

Bill Morrison

bondoman

Tilley, you and I will hit the 6-0 here in the next decade, which certainly IMO makes us far from old farts just yet. friends of hers playing board games, no doubt drinking some beer, and listening to music.

Speak for yourself, Bondoman; for me, that dread moment arrived last month.  As for the old fart part - well, my students and my stepkids probably will tell you that in my case that happened a long, long time ago.

Yes, I think a wide perspective is shown here in this discussion. Tilley, you and I will hit the 6-0 here in the next decade, which certainly IMO makes us far from old farts just yet. But it puts us both smack in the middle of, say, 1960 with a tube of glue in our hands while we snapped parts off of the sprue on a Revell kit.

From that point of view, I have an indelible, no hyperbole intended, basis for my modeling which combines a pretty quick and straightforward approach to a model, with the aim then and now of finishing it up quickly while socializing with a buddy or two.

Kits used to be the "goody bag" at parties for us little guys, sometimes, and we'd build em all right there on the spot. I learned some really bad habits that stick with me to this day, like trying to glue together a dozen parts at once, and not following instructions.

We have not lost our kids to the internet just yet. My 20 year old daughter spent last evening with a group of friends of hers playing board games, no doubt drinking some beer, and listening to music.

Pirates 4 is about to come out! How about a rerelease of the Pyro Fellucca?

I think the last several posts have established a point on which we can all agree:  one of the great things about ship modeling is that there are so many ways to approach it.  And there's more than one good way to get into it.  If the hobby is to thrive, the manufacturers need to cater to all those approaches - with good "beginner kits," good books for beginners (written by people who have gotten well beyond beginner status themselves), affordable tools, etc., etc.

A couple of folks have brought up another factor that, I think, is relevant to the whole "kit vs. scratch" issue:  time.  People go into ship modeling for different reasons.  For some, it's a means of occupying spare time and an outlet for creative impulses.  For others, it's a means of studying maritime history.  For still others, it's a combination of the two.  I'm sure that if you asked a dozen experienced ship modelers why they build models, you'd get at least a dozen different - and interesting - answers.

When I was in elementary and middle school (or "junior high school," as it was called in those far-off days), I took great pleasure in cranking out a sailing ship from a Revell kit in a few days.  (I'm glad I don't have any photos of those finished models; I'm sure they were utterly hideous.)  While I was working on the model I'd be reading a book about a related subject (I gobbled up everything the public library had about Nelson before I was out of junior high), studying pictures, and learning everything I could about the ship in question.  (Dad gave me a copy of Bjorn Landstrom's The Ship for Christmas when I was in the seventh grade.  That book is practically falling apart now, but I wouldn't take any amount of money for it.)  The result was that I got fascinated by history (and maritime history in particular); model building was a big factor in my choice of college major, graduate field, and, eventually, career.  I don't suggest for a second that every model builder ought to base his/her approach to the hobby on the assumption that it's going to be a life-changing experience.  But I do suggest that building models of lots of different subjects encourages expanded knowledge of those subjects.  And the kits are what make it practical to build lots of subjects in a reasonable amount of time.

I have great respect for other approaches, too.  When I decided to build my little model of the Continental frigate Hancock  ( http://www.hmsvictoryscalemodels.be/JohnTilleyHancock/index.html ) I was in grad school, getting hooked on the serious study of the American Revolution.  I spent over six years on that model.  (That figure is deceptive; those six years included three changes of residence, the setting up of three workshops, two job changes, and many, many days when the model didn't get touched.)  When I went on research trips to work on my dissertation (about the British navy in the Revolution) I'd allow a day or so extra to do research for the model.  By the time I was ready to start the rigging, I'd decided to make it a "semi-scratch" model - with manufactured blocks and deadeyes.  I had the facilities to make blocks and deadeyes, but I figured six years really were enough.  Since then, I've spent most of my hobby time on kits.  Retirement is on the horizon; when it arrives, I'll probably pick a good scratch project - and maybe be able to finish it in a matter of months, rather than years.

The bottom line (on which, I hope, we can all agree):  there are lots of "right" ways to do it.  Surely the individual who, like Bill, simply doesn't have the time to scratchbuild shouldn't be told:  "Well, sorry, you just can't be a ship modeler."  Neither should the one who doesn't have room for a workshop.  Or the one who suffers from arthritis, or lack of good closeup vision.  The hobby ought to welcome everybody who wants to partake of it - and acknowledge that different approaches to it are best for different people.

Gentlemen,

I would love to scratchbuild, although I do not see in 3D. My problem is not that I don't have the space but that I don't have the time.  As a high school history teacher, my time at home is mostly taken up with grading tests and papers and lesson planning (Yes, contrary to popular opinion, high school students do learn how to write, at least in my classes!)  Anyway, I find that the comfort of working on a kit relaxes me in a way that scratchbuilding might not.

Crackers, I would welcome your posting a step by step guide. I might attempt one in the summer.

Bill Morrison

     EBergerud, I hear you loud and clear. I have that ability to see objects in a three dimential way, a trait I inherited from my late father, who was an electrical engineer. He was also an accomplished mathematician. My intellectual ability stopped before the math, as I always struggled with that subject throughout my schooling years.  Ds and Fs were the norm in my battle with math. I had trouble deciding the answer of what 2X2 should be. My answer would usually be 5, much to the exasperation of my teachers. I love music and always wanted to play a musical instrument. As hard as I tried to learn, my fingers felt like they were tied to lead weights. After trying learn the guitar and flute recorder, I decided beating my head against a brick wall would produce better results.

    The point I'm trying to get across, is that talent and desire in any human endeavor, will produce results and satisfaction. Trying to build a kit model or scratch build without some talent and motivation is just a pure waste of time and could be spent on other pursuits. I like scratch because I have a warm and fuzzy feeling of accomplishment when I see the final results. I have a friend who likes to haunt auto junk yards looking for classic abandoned pieces of rusted trash. After months and even years of hard work in restoration, he has won awards for his classic autos on shows that are held each August here in Jerome. When I asked him why he devotes so much time and money into his hobby, he replies that he gets pure satisfaction from turning a rusted piece of lump into an automoble ridden by people of a distant generation.

    Montani semper liberi !   Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                                Crackers                                  [ 

I'll give you two reasons why a modeler might not want to scratch build in wood - I speak with conviction because both reasons make it unlikely that I'll try it. My brother and a good friend are both good wood workers and both build elaborate RC aircraft. Both are (as we used to say in high school before vocational classes were consigned to history's ash can) "good with their hands." I don't think it has anything to do with hands, but in my experience some people can look at a problem in a kind of three dimensional way and figure out ways to build something or fix something. They "see" the things they want to do with tools. I think that skill is far more important than proper technique for sawing a log. (Good idea to know how to wield an axe properly if cutting firewood in my experience though.) When I high school senior Minnesota had it's own version of the SAT exam. It had sections on symbolic logic and critical thinking (just like the unjustly maligned SAT or GRE) but it also had a section derived from former military aptitude exams dealing with the ability to see in three dimensions. You'd look at a two dimensional figure and then chose from four options what the object would look like if folded together (or nailed together in the real world). That section was most humbling for yours truly, while the other stuff was mothers' milk. (Fortunately for me, historians don't need to build things.) I later learned that for large number of students the result was the opposite. I've done a lot of writing and teaching. My brother built his house. My friend the RC-junkie just tore his kitchen apart and rebuilt the things from ground up. I suppose if someone put a gun to my head I could learn to do some wood working - but I don't think I'd ever have the ability to "see" how things work in advance. Certainly not in the way the gent over on ScaleModel who built the 96 scale Iron Duke does. But I can read a map or a sheet of instructions. I'm a kit guy for sure.

The other variable is patience. One of my friend's RC planes is six months minimum. When I saw the cream of the crop of the Marin Model Ship Builders (all make scratch sailing ships - many draft their own plans) I was suitably impressed but I remember one gent telling me that his RN frigate took him a year and a half. (Bet it close to a yard long.) When I'm building a complex kit, I'm thinking about how to handle the paint job within a few days: by the time I start painting I'm thinking a little about the next project. And I'm history tripping on and off throughout. Psychologically I think I'm much more suited to completing 15 kits a year than one. I don't think I'm alone here, or the modeling industry would look very different. This may change somewhat. The more experienced you get it does seem that there's more tendency to raise the ante. Had I built this humble Airfix Iron Duke I'm working on now three months go, I would have had it on display in ten days or so "out of box." But now I'm dealing with about fifty additional PE parts and I even lowered the superstructure - something I wouldn't have dreamed of doing a few months back. And painting nowdays includes more than a base, a little shadowing and some weathering. But even with refinements, I'll be cranking out at least ten kits a year (heaven willing natch) - I better because I have about a hundred in my stash and my Norwegian blood rebels at the idea of my son selling them on ebay after I've bid farewell to our vale of tears. (Actually no tears at all as long as there are kits to build and my wife's happy.)

What I really need is not a book about model ship building but a book explaining ships. It would help greatly in placing and shaping parts if I knew what they represented. There's got to be a naval version of the various aircraft "walk - around" books. (Also be invaluable for coping with errors in the instructions: we listening Mr. Dragon?)

Eric

I'm not going to argue with Wojszwillo any more, but Crackers has raised some excellent points that, I think, are worthy of discussion.

Crackers wrote:

"While I agree with most opinions that Professor Tilly writes for the Forum, I must take issue with three points that he presents in the above posting.

      "One, is that a scratch modeler requires plenty of room space for his hobby. My wife and I live in a moble home with cramped quarters. My hobby room is a former 10 foot X 10 foot bedroom cube. It is cramped, but well organized for all of my hobby requirements, which includes a record player where I listen to classical music ( a throwback to neolithic times for those who prefer CDs) of my vinyl disk collection. Classical music listening sooths the soul while  performing ship modeling hobbies.

    "Point two, is because of the limited space, large models can not be constructed. The above model under construction of the British Revenue Cutter DILIGENCE, is only 15 inches long. If I want to, I can launch even larger models as I have done in the past. The trick is the conservation of space where there is limited room.

  "Point three, is that a hobbiest requires expensive tools and equipment. The most expensive tools I have is a MicroLux tilt arbor table saw and scroll saw, that I purchased from Mirro-Mark several years ago, and a Dremel Moto Tool. The rest are small hand tool like saws, rasps and files and other items collected here and there over the years.

    "Really, the most expensive item would be the purchase of ships plans, some of which, depending on the number of sheets, can reach the $100 range. Off the top of my head, these plans can be bought from the Taubman Plan Service and the Dromedary, both of which can be viewed online on your computer. For real historical accuracy, the Smithsonian Institution collection of both naval and merchant ships are a real treat for those interested in American sailing ships, or more modern vessels. Again, go online for more information. The Smithsonial issues a catalog of these plans for one to chose from.

    "For the beginner scratch model builder, interested in the basics of scratch building, the paperback book, 'Model Ships from Scratch,' by Scott Riobinson, ISBN 1-55750-589-6, and published by the Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, MD is a good reference source. The models are a bit on the crude side when finished, but never-the-less, well worth the effort for those interested in this subject.

       "Montani semper liberi !       Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                             Crackers                          "

No real disagreement here, Crackers.  Ten-by-ten feet isn't a bad size for a workshop - but it's more than lots of casual hobbyists are able to commit to their hobbies.  (I'm lucky to have a wonderful wife who, when we inherited some money after the death of my parents, insisted that I buy a pre-fabbed workshop and install it in the back yard.  It's ten feet by twenty - only twice the size of your space - and plenty big enough for any modeling project I'll ever want to tackle.)   The unfortunate truth is that  lots of people - especially  those with kids in the household - just can't devote any space permanently to their hobbies.  (I know Harold Underhill claimed to have built his model of the brigantine Leon on a folding card table in his living room; maybe that proves that the more knowledgable and experienced the modeler, the less he actually needs in the way of space and sophisticated tools.)

It sounds like your Microlux table saw is just like mine.  Mine cost over $300.  It undoubtedly would be possible to scratchbuild some good models without it - provided you've got a good, reliable source of pre-milled wood strips and sheets.  The same probably goes for the Dremel tool.  I routinely recommend that (or, better yet, some similar tool that doesn't run so daggone fast ) as the first power tool a modeler ought to buy.  But a Moto-Tool kit these days costs at least $50.  To lots of modelers - especially young ones - that's a lot of money.

The basic point of my last post is that scratchbuilding, though it offers lots of pleasure and rewards, isn't for everybody.  It requires a considerable amount of knowledge (of how to read a set of plans, how to visualize what the finished product is going to look like, how to figure out the sequence of construction, etc., etc.) that a beginner, by definition, just doesn't have.  That's where, I contend, the kit has a highly legitimate and valuable contribution to make to the hobby.

I wouldn't hold up my own "career" in ship modeling as an example for anybody else to follow, but for what it's worth - I guess I'm of the first generation that grew up in the age of the plastic kit.  My first sailing ship model was a Revell Santa Maria, which my parents bought me (for $3.00) when it was brand new.  (According to Dr. Graham's history of Revell, that must have been in 1957 - the year I turned seven.  I'd been building airplanes and warships for a year or so by then.)  I'm sure the result of my efforts was a monstrosity, but kind words from the family and friends kept me at it.  By the time I was out of elementary school I'd built several dozen plastic sailing ships.  And (maybe because of the academic atmosphere of our household) I'd read every book the public library had on the subject.  I knew how to tell a brig from a barque, what the difference between a shroud and a ratline was (and how miserably the kits usually represented them), how deadeyes and blocks worked, and how to tell a sixteenth-century ship from a nineteenth-century one.  It took me longer than it should have to make the great leap from plastic to wood (largely, I must say, because the prices of the wood kits were pretty steep by comparison), but when I finally made it the transition was relatively painless - and the transition from wood kits to scratchbuilding even less so.

My point is not to hold up my own experience as an example, but simply that lots of beginners just don't have access to either the funds or the facilities to build more than plastic kits.  One of my biggest regrets about the current state of the scale modeling hobby in general is that so few kids are getting involved in it.  It may be too late to change that trend, but if we want kids to get back into modeling they need to have a practical, not-to-expensive means of doing it.

If a newcomer to the hobby wants to start out by immersing himself in the literature about the history of nautical technology and then, having acquired a good working knowledge of how ships are built, start out by building a ship model from scratch, he certainly has my best wishes.  But what about the individual who, for any number of personal reasons, doesn't want to dive that deeply into sailing ship modeling?  This thread got started by a newcomer who'd been building model aircraft, and wanted some suggestions on how to get into sailing ships.  At least one other person in similar circumstances  joined the discussion - and we've had posts from people like that in quite a few other Forum threads.  I don't think such people should simply be told, "Well, if you want to build a sailing ship, go read a dozen books and then build your model from scratch."  (And I don't think that's what Crackers actually meant to say.) 

In my version of the ideal hobby world, there would be a fair number of kits (preferably multi-media) on the market that, for a reasonable price, would provide the newcomer to sailing ship modeling with a good set of plans, a comprehensive, well-written, and well-illustrated instruction manual, high-quality materials, and accurately-reproduced fittings - the sort of package that a neophyte with competent manual skills and a basic set of modeling tools could turn into a nice, accurate scale model in two or three months, even if he/she knew nothing about sailing ships to begin with.  I know next to nothing about tanks.  But if I decide I want to build a model (just one) of a tank, I know that Tamiya and Dragon are ready to sell me any of several dozen kits that will let me turn out a decent-looking Sherman or Panther.  I think a tank enthusiast who gets the urge to try a sailing ship ought to have the same opportunity.

Things really aren't quite as bad out there in the ship kit world as some of the posts in this thread have implied.  EBergerud mentioned that, when he was younger, it was easy to find the Constitution, Santa Maria, Bonhomme Richard, Victory, and a generic Viking ship in plastic.  All of those particular kits are still available.  (The Revell-Monogram catalog is thin on ships in general, but Revell Germany has reissued most - though not all - of the old Revell sailing ships from the fifties and sixties.  And Revell-Monogram did, just a few months ago, bring back the old Aurora Bonhomme Richard.  I frankly wish that hadn't happened - but that's a subject for another thread.)  The newly rejuvenated Airfix has reissued six of its "Classic Ships" series (the Wasa, Cutty Sark, Golden Hind, Victory, Endeavour, and Bounty); we may hope that more are to come.   The other big plastic sailing ship manufacturer used to be Heller.  Nobody seems to know just what's going on with that company, but quite a few of its old sailing ship kits (some of which, I think, are reboxed Revell products) are being advertised by the mail order firms. 

For most of us, it's no longer practical to drive (or bicycle) down to the local hobby shop and browse through a shelf full of plastic sailing ship kits - because that hobby shop has long since gone out of business.  But quite a few of the kits are out there.  The manufacturers just aren't giving us new ones.

Another pleasant recent development has been the appearance of the web-based "practicum."  The instructions provided in sailing ship kits - wood and plastic - are notoriously bad.  But several organizations, including Model Shipways, have started putting detailed, comprehensive, well-illustrated instructions on their websites.  Take a look at this one, for instance:  http://www.modelexpo-online.com/product.asp?ITEMNO=MS2016 .

That strikes me as a pretty good way to break into sailing ship modeling.

jtilley

There are indeed quite a few similarities between the skills of plastic sailing ship modeling and those of other forms of plastic modeling.  But there also are quite a few differences.  (How many books on armor modeling deal with rigging?)  I continue to contend that a few more works, on the introductory level, about plastic ship modeling would be most welcome.

Prof. Tilley, it seems, that You always want to be right :-). But please, read one more time, what i have posted (citation below) a day before Your message, from which citation above is taken.

Part of my message:

Wojszwillo

But plastic ship modeling does'nt differs too much from plastic aircraft, armor etc modeling (or can be said - not differs at all concerning work with plastic parts) - the same techniques is used for gluing, puttying, sanding, airburshing or painting, whetering (if needed) etc. Beginner simply can read these books.

My list of books was about that part, how plastic sailing ship models differs from other plastic models - ie additional rigging works and additional scratch builded parts works (no one plastic sailing ship model is perfect).

uote user="jtilley"]

Just a couple more points.  I agree completely that scratchbuilding offers rewards one can never get from a kit - plastic, wood, or otherwise.  But I also believe quite firmly that there's a place in the world for kits.  For one thing, scratchbuilding is, for practical reasons, beyond reach for some people.  (To build a good-sized ship model from scratch you really need a workshop, where you can leave the work in progress set up while you work at your day job.  Lots of people - apartment-dwellers, for instance - simply don't have that kind of space, or the necessary arsenal of tools.)  Scratchbuilding requires more time than working from a kit - time that many modelers either don't have, or don't want to commit to the hobby.  Good kits (and not-so-good ones) have introduced lots of people into the hobby - people who never would have gotten into it if scratchbuilding had been the only option.

There are indeed quite a few similarities between the skills of plastic sailing ship modeling and those of other forms of plastic modeling.  But there also are quite a few differences.  (How many books on armor modeling deal with rigging?)  I continue to contend that a few more works, on the introductory level, about plastic ship modeling would be most welcome.

Quite a few years ago (in the late seventies and early eighties, I think), Airfix published a series of modeling books that dealt with specific Airfix kits.  The most popular ones concentrated on the company's 1/24-scale aircraft.  (There were books on the Spitfire, BF-109, P-51, Stuka, Hurricane, and maybe one or two others.  And there were several, by a gentleman named Noel C.L. Hackney, about sailing ships.  I remember the ones about the Victory, Cutty Sark, and Mayflower; there may have been others.  They were modestly priced, and frankly I had some reservations about them, but I thought Airfix was on the right track with those books.  Each contained a brief history of the ship in question (in considerably more depth than the instruction sheet provided), and step-by-step instructions, with dozens of photographs, for building the kit - to a considerably more elaborate standard than the kit instructions showed.  By the time the modeler was through with the project he'd picked up considerable basic information about how rigging and deck fittings work, and had been introduced, relatively painlessly, to lots of other fundamental aspects of ship modeling.   I wouldn't hold up the models illustrated in those books as examples of the highest level of the art, but I think they performed a valuable function in drawing quite a few newcomers into the hobby.  I wish those books would come back.

Whether, at this point in the history of the plastic sailing ship kit, any publisher would be interested in making an investment in a good, new book on the subject strikes me as highly dubious.  (If I were running such a publishing firm, I'm not at all sure I would.)  But I'd love to see it happen.

[/quote]

    While I agree with most opinions that Professor Tilly writes for the Forum, I must take issue with three points that he presents in the above posting.

      One, is that a scratch modeler requires plenty of room space for his hobby. My wife and I live in a moble home with cramped quarters. My hobby room is a former 10 foot X 10 foot bedroom cube. It is cramped, but well organized for all of my hobby requirements, which includes a record player where I listen to classical music ( a throwback to neolithic times for those who prefer CDs) of my vinyl disk collection. Classical music listening sooths the soul while  performing ship modeling hobbies.

    Point two, is because of the limited space, large models can not be constructed. The above model under construction of the British Revenue Cutter DILIGENCE, is only 15 inches long. If I want to, I can launch even larger models as I have done in the past. The trick is the conservation of space where there is limited room.

  Point three, is that a hobbiest requires expensive tools and equipment. The most expensive tools I have is a MicroLux tilt arbor table saw and scroll saw, that I purchased from Mirro-Mark several years ago, and a Dremel Moto Tool. The rest are small hand tool like saws, rasps and files and other items collected here and there over the years.

    Really, the most expensive item would be the purchase of ships plans, some of which, depending on the number of sheets, can reach the $100 range. Off the top of my head, these plans can be bought from the Taubman Plan Service and the Dromedary, both of which can be viewed online on your computer. For real historical accuracy, the Smithsonian Institution collection of both naval and merchant ships are a real treat for those interested in American sailing ships, or more modern vessels. Again, go online for more information. The Smithsonial issues a catalog of these plans for one to chose from.

    For the beginner scratch model builder, interested in the basics of scratch building, the paperback book, "Model Ships from Scratch," by Scott Riobinson, ISBN 1-55750-589-6, and published by the Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, MD is a good reference source. The models are a bit on the crude side when finished, but never-the-less, well worth the effort for those interested in this subject.

       Montani semper liberi !       Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                             Crackers                         

I sent the following msg to Dragon USA. (They also distribute Zvezda which has a couple sailing ships in their list.) Have no idea whether anyone reads such things are not.

Hi,

Love your kits. Maybe you could pass along the note below to the powers that be at Dragon or Zvezda for that matter.

There's been a long thread on the forum at Finescale Modeler about the near disappearance of wooden ships modeled in plastic. As I'm sure you know, modeling in the US and the UK is a hobby dominated by people over age 40 with a large number of "Baby Boomers" that are now retiring with some money and time on their hands. Many of the people now buying your kits modeled forty years ago (or longer), gave up the hobby when girls came along, and have picked it up again as adults. All of us (I'm in that category) have very pleasant memories of classic kits that were commonly built. One genre, common in my youth, that's almost gone now is the plastic modeled sailing ship. It's certainly true that scratch builders and people buying expensive European kits of sailing ships are still very active and live in a world of their own. However, with the quality of plastic kits your company makes, there's no reason in the world that you couldn't make a really great "multi-media" model of a subject like the USS Constitution, or the CSS Alabama. Plastic would be the heart with some metal (or maybe resin) fittings along with PE. If people are willing to pay $140 for a 350 scale Scharnhorst, I'd guess strongly that even more would be willing to match that price point for "Old Iron sides" or another iconic sailing ship. (Today's generic "pirate ships" are a bad joke - only very old and repackaged 18th century frigates or ships of the line - that are not at all like a real pirate ship which was probably closer to a slop. Actually, I'd guess something like "Queen Anne's Revenge" - a very real pirate ship would sell very nicely to serious modelers.) I really think you'd draw modelers that normally do planes and tanks if you had the right kit, simply because of the nostalgia factor. And it doesn't hurt that a good kits of this type would look terrific and replicates important artifacts of many nations' history.

Dragon is one of the few companies still coming out with innovative warships. I assume someone is buying them. I really think there's a chance here to do something that would be profitable and get a lot of attention.

Best
Eric Bergerud

The more lobbyists the better!  We will get nowhere without constantly harangueing the manufacturers . . . afterall, the squeeky wheel gets the grease!    

Bill Morrison

There are lots of resources on scratch building. (You can even plunk down $35 and buy "Thunderer" an entire book dedicated to building a large HMS Dreadnaught.) I did stumble on a super example for free. Over at Modelwarships.com (gotta join if not a member - free of course) there's a category for RC and Scratch building in their forum. It includes an astounding blow by blow photo-build of HMS Iron Duke in 96 scale intended for RC. All scratch build and done by an obviously terrific craftsman. ( http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20253&sid=53f360465ff346523c618c3f04ce283f ) There are perhaps a couple of hundred photos - almost every step is explained. Thirteen pages in the blog - each very long - and almost all from the author. Doubt it's something I'd ever dream of doing (wish I'd started this hobby 25 years ago) but I was surprised on how few really complex tools were required. It takes more space than I have, but wouldn't require a football stadium. If nothing else, it was an invaluable aid to me on my little Iron Duke. I actually trimmed the superstructure because the plans used on the photo-build clearly showed Airfix making it much too high. That's not standard procedure for yours truly. Also helped me find where to stick tiny PE parts I bought from White Ensign but they saw no reason to locate - like water-tight doors or small ladders.

I don't know if either would listen, but I'm thinking of sending an email to both Dragon and Zvezda about dong a "multi-media" sailing ship employing plastic, PE, metal fittings (or maybe resin). I was thinking of all those boomers that built "Old Ironsides." If people will plunk down $130 for a 350 scale Scharnhorst with 1200 parts, I wonder if a modern rendition of Constitution or something like it wouldn't work at a similar price point. If a company like Dragon did it right it would get reviewed in FSM and similar publications world over, and if the reviews were favorable, we might hear some cries of "don't give up the ship" (not sure Shannon would sell well in the US though) or whatever the language is used when credit cards get processed.

Eric

jtilley

Just a couple more points.  I agree completely that scratchbuilding offers rewards one can never get from a kit - plastic, wood, or otherwise.  But I also believe quite firmly that there's a place in the world for kits.  For one thing, scratchbuilding is, for practical reasons, beyond reach for some people.  (To build a good-sized ship model from scratch you really need a workshop, where you can leave the work in progress set up while you work at your day job.  Lots of people - apartment-dwellers, for instance - simply don't have that kind of space, or the necessary arsenal of tools.)  Scratchbuilding requires more time than working from a kit - time that many modelers either don't have, or don't want to commit to the hobby.  Good kits (and not-so-good ones) have introduced lots of people into the hobby - people who never would have gotten into it if scratchbuilding had been the only option.

Kind of agree with you on some point of scratchbuild. I am not into sailing ship but more on modern warship for the fact lack of kits for other countries navy other than USN, Russia Navy,PLAN and JMSDF subject.

I just recently started and complete my first scratchbuild. I am fortunate to be working in a R&D center where workshops and many different kind of tools are available. I will skip lunch time and work on my scratch build subject. Without those special tools and the available of workshop, its impossible to complete my subject. I live in an apartment. Setting up a workshop is impossible in my limited space and my wife will kill me if I turn my room into one. :D

Scratchbuild indeed puts you into a different league. You will feel you owe something unique, probably one and only.

The only cons I will say is , you will start to get obsess with detail and try to get as much as possible. It can cause alots of unpleasant sometimes. So for me, I need to control my emotion/obsess and strike a balance.

Just a couple more points.  I agree completely that scratchbuilding offers rewards one can never get from a kit - plastic, wood, or otherwise.  But I also believe quite firmly that there's a place in the world for kits.  For one thing, scratchbuilding is, for practical reasons, beyond reach for some people.  (To build a good-sized ship model from scratch you really need a workshop, where you can leave the work in progress set up while you work at your day job.  Lots of people - apartment-dwellers, for instance - simply don't have that kind of space, or the necessary arsenal of tools.)  Scratchbuilding requires more time than working from a kit - time that many modelers either don't have, or don't want to commit to the hobby.  Good kits (and not-so-good ones) have introduced lots of people into the hobby - people who never would have gotten into it if scratchbuilding had been the only option.

There are indeed quite a few similarities between the skills of plastic sailing ship modeling and those of other forms of plastic modeling.  But there also are quite a few differences.  (How many books on armor modeling deal with rigging?)  I continue to contend that a few more works, on the introductory level, about plastic ship modeling would be most welcome.

Quite a few years ago (in the late seventies and early eighties, I think), Airfix published a series of modeling books that dealt with specific Airfix kits.  The most popular ones concentrated on the company's 1/24-scale aircraft.  (There were books on the Spitfire, BF-109, P-51, Stuka, Hurricane, and maybe one or two others.  And there were several, by a gentleman named Noel C.L. Hackney, about sailing ships.  I remember the ones about the Victory, Cutty Sark, and Mayflower; there may have been others.  They were modestly priced, and frankly I had some reservations about them, but I thought Airfix was on the right track with those books.  Each contained a brief history of the ship in question (in considerably more depth than the instruction sheet provided), and step-by-step instructions, with dozens of photographs, for building the kit - to a considerably more elaborate standard than the kit instructions showed.  By the time the modeler was through with the project he'd picked up considerable basic information about how rigging and deck fittings work, and had been introduced, relatively painlessly, to lots of other fundamental aspects of ship modeling.   I wouldn't hold up the models illustrated in those books as examples of the highest level of the art, but I think they performed a valuable function in drawing quite a few newcomers into the hobby.  I wish those books would come back.

Whether, at this point in the history of the plastic sailing ship kit, any publisher would be interested in making an investment in a good, new book on the subject strikes me as highly dubious.  (If I were running such a publishing firm, I'm not at all sure I would.)  But I'd love to see it happen.

warshipguy:  Dear Bill: Thanks for your desire to contact plastic modeling manufacturers. I applaud your efforts. You should get a standing ovation for your good works. Unfortunately, you are barking up a wrong tree. They will never change their marketing techniques, as this will probable hurt their bottom dollar profits. It is more profitable to sell fake "pirate" kits than be an honest broker. That's why there is some merit in scratch building sailing ship models

     Montani semper liberi !    Happy modeling to all and evry one of you.

                              Crackers                                

Crackers,

I remember writing to Lindberg about producing more sailing ship kits. I also made the point that, to the best of my knowledge, no pirate ship carried 100 guns (the real ship is the Royal Sovereign!)  I also get annoyed with more mainstream companies such as Revell marketing grossly inaccurate ships (HMS Beagle).  However, this has been much kicked about; I seriously doubt these manufacturers will change their ways.

Bill Morrison

    While I agree with you that there are new plastic kit releases, there are not enough choices to select from. What disgusts me more is the labeling of certain plastic kits as "pirate ships", a move that is blatent dishonesty on the part of the kit manufacturer. It's a wonder that the FTC has not gotten after them for false advertising.

       It is for the reason of lack of choice and historical dishonesty that I'm a proponant of scratch building. I have a great admiration for the late Harold M. Hahn, who issued 14 sailing ship plans of the Revolutionary War era, along with his book, "Ships of the American Revolution, and Their Models." His book, which is unfortunately out of print, and can only be found at specialized marine book sellers, details, in a step- by- step process, of how to scratch build model sailing ships from his plans. I have constructed one of the ships from his plans that is an exception of his Revolutionary War models. This model is the BOUNTY pictured above and now on display at the Jerome Public Library. I have seen illustrations of models from other model makers of Mr. Hahn's plans, and frankly, these models appear better than any expensive kit, especially the HECEPOB variety.

        Montani semper liberi !      Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                                 Crackers                             

EBergerud

At present I'm building an Airfix Iron Duke because I want a Dreadnaught and that's the only one there. (I have Konig in the closet and Santa brought Mikasa.)

Eric

What I would like to see is a little more active journalism in plastic sailing ship building, not tomey reference works on how a clipper was rigged. Like how to make HMS Surprise out of the Heller La Gloire, or that kind of thing that would appeal to a larger audience.

This forum is the best I've found, but the pace, like ship model building, can be a little slow.

Although we sailing ship enthusiasts have said that the plastic sailing ship hobby is dead, we periodically witness a small resurrection with the release of a kit or two.  Revell of Germany released Batavia, Humbolt, the Hansa Cog, and the Dom Fernando IIe Gloria; several other sailing ships have been released by Russian companies, and Academy is rereleasing the old Imai kits.

Given the success of the HECEPOB kits, it seems reasonable to expect the plastic manufacturers to eventually expand to meet our needs.

I do agree with Marius on a key point; books that deal with specialized aspects  of sailing ship modeling should apply to wood, paper, or plastic models.  However, as we all have come to experience, plastic masts, yards, blocks, and eyebolts are best  modelled in another medium instead of plastic.  A book that deals with the unique problems encountered by plastic sailing ship modelers should be written.  Is anyone interested in coauthoring such a book with me?

Bill Morrison

For sure last post from yours truly. The issue really does revolve around the number of wooden ships made in plastic - very very few as opposed to the large number of metal ships made in plastic. And it wasn't always like this. I modeled until junior high (quit about 1963) and modeling was a huge hobby among the astonishing number of kids running around then. This was the fist generation of children that had their own money (thanks to WWII,  the GI Bill and the babby boom.) The country was filled with small "drug stores" that don't exist any more. Almost all of them had at least a few models. And it's true that most were planes (they were the cheapest for one thing - less than a dollar). But there were ships. And there were sailing ships. Santa Maria, Constitution, a generic "Viking Ship", Monitor and Merrimac (that's what we called it in Minnesota) Bon Homme Richard and  HMS Victory were common kits: I did them all. I remember Victory very well because I spent so long to paint those lovely yellow lines. (I think the last kit I did then was a large scale Civil War Kearsarge.) At present I'm building an Airfix Iron Duke because I want a Dreadnaught and that's the only one there. (I have Konig in the closet and Santa brought Mikasa.) It's a dreadful kit really. And maybe so was my "Old Ironsides" but I didn't know it. The good old days indeed.  

Eric

   As an interested observer of the Forum, I have noticed the frustrations of plastic sailing ship kits and the notorious HECEPOB overpriced European plank and bulkhead kits that is the irate reaction of Professor Tilly. My answer to this problem, is to scatch build your model !   Easy you say ? Prove it !! To put my money where my mouth is, in the future, I intend to post a step-by step guide of how the British Revenue Cutter DILIGENCE,  was constructed just from plans without benifit of a kit. It can be done !

    The picture on the left is of the said cutter taken from a book in my library. The example on the right is of the work in progress that is not finished at this moment. When the project is completed, the results will be posted as an example of how one can overcome the limitations of  plastic kits.        

       Montani semper liberi !    Happy modeling to all and everfy one of you.

                               Crackers                             

Yes, my spoken (or on this case - written) English is bad, but i understand everything what is written in English - but that does'nt matter.

Yes, in that point - there are only few books for beginners in plastic ship modeling - i agree.

But plastic ship modeling does'nt differs too much from plastic aircraft, armor etc modeling (or can be said - not differs at all concerning work with plastic parts) - the same techniques is used for gluing, puttying, sanding, airburshing or painting, whetering (if needed) etc. Beginner simply can read these books.

My list of books was about that part, how plastic sailing ship models differs from other plastic models - ie additional rigging works and additional scratch builded parts works (no one plastic sailing ship model is perfect).

Wojszwillo, I think the language barrier is at work here.

My original comment was simply that the number of books on sailing ship models written for beginners, and specifically on plastic sailing ship models, is small.  You've said nothing to contradict that.

As Ebergerund pointed out, there's a massive literature available for beginners in plastic aircraft, armor, car, and railroad modeling.  There is no equivalent in ship modeling.

I've been building ship models since 1956 - and no, I don't need a book aimed at the beginner for myself.  But newcomers to the hobby do benefit from such works.  And I am fully aware of the uses to which the Steel, Biddlecombe, and other contemporary and modern works on nautical technology can be put to use by the ship modeler.  But this thread got started because a new Forum member was looking for suggestions about books for beginners. 

Well said, Ebergerud.  I would, however, offer one small caveat.  In the fifty-five years I've been building ship models there has never been a better time for the plastic ship modeler - provided that modeler's interest lies in twentieth-century warships.  The number and quality of kits being cranked out by Trumpeter, Dragon, and their ilk is, by comparison with the state of things fifteen or twenty years ago, really astonishing.  (The 1/700-scale enthusiast who wants to build a model of the Bismarck, just to give one example, can choose from four kits:  Aoshima, Trumpeter, Dragon, and now Revell Germany.  And a steady stream of 1/350 kits from Dragon and Hasegawa, appearing almost every month, is constantly stretching the limits of what we thought was possible in a mass-produced kit.  And take a look at the vast number of aftermarket parts available to the modern warship modeler.) 

The plastic sailing ship modeler, on the other hand, is just about forgotten.  As I said earlier in this thread, maybe that's not such a bad thing; there's room for argument about whether styrene plastic really is a good medium for building sailing ship models.  But for Olde Phogies like me, who can remember when the best of the Revell and Airfix sailing ships represented the state of the art in the plastic kit industry, it does seem kind of sad.

jtilley

Most of the others on your list have virtually nothing to do with plastic models.  (Quite a few of them were written long before the plastic kit came into existence.)  A few of them (Mastini's, for instance) do deal with kits - but almost exclusively with wood ones. 

Several of the others on your list (Steel and Biddlecombe, for instance) don't have any direct connection with model building.  They're invaluable references on the history of sailing ship technology, but they don't tell the reader anything about how to build models.  (The same, for that matter, applies to the Boudriot books.  M. Boudriot has no bigger admirer than me, but his books aren't about model building; they're about prototype ships.  The same applies to the Anatomy of the Ship series.  They're excellent references for model builders, but they don't say much - if anything - about how to build a ship model.

My comment stands.  The literature on sailing ship modeling for beginners - and plastic sailing ship modeling in particular - is thin.  There's a great deal of room for more good, up-to-date books on the subject.

Sorry, at this point i really don't understand You.

If You wan't make a true scale model of sailing ship, how do You will made rigging for it? "Usual common way" - as will look better and don't matter how that was on real ship?

Serious modelers in Europe (in USA too, i still believe) make their models as true scale models and make rigging exact, as this was made on real ship only in scale. For that porpose (how was rigging made in real ship) books by Steel and Biddlecombe are very usefull, as and others about rigging (knots, blocks etc), which i have listed. Riging on plastic sailing ship model is the same as on wooden sailing ship model and should be the same, as was in real ship...

No one plastic sailing ship kit is perfect and serious modeler should make a lot of parts from scratch - and he should have information, how one or another thing was made on real ship, and for that purpose are Mondfeld, Marquardt, Hoeckel, Boudriot and Anatomy of the ship series books very usefull.

If at Your mind we should read in books how to glue one part to another, how to apply putty to them or how to sand them - sorry then, and forget my list, becouse this list is not usefull at all for that purpose.

Anyway - glueing airplane model plastic parts is the same "technique" used, as and for glueing ship model plastic parts (and the same "techniques" are for puttying, sanding, painting), so everybody can read books "how to made xx plastic model - for beginners".