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Model Shipways Windfall!

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  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Model Shipways Windfall!
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 1:17 PM

This just gave new meaning to the phrase "I GOT LUCKY!!!!"

I just bought the Model Shipways old solid hull kits of the USS Essex (large), the Mayflower, the Flying Fish, and the Rattlesnake for $1.00 each over the weekend at a garage sale!  I have checked all kits and they are all complete!  It was an incredible find.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Wednesday, December 22, 2010 9:17 AM

I remember the Essex kit from when I was a kid!  My local hobby shop had one.  This would have been about 1954 or 55. It was too expensive for me- I had to stick with Scientific and Sterling kits (both balsa hulls), but sure drooled over the MS Essex.  Only thing I have picked up at garage sale was a Sterling revenue cutter. You really lucked out!

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    March 2006
Posted by TD4438 on Wednesday, December 22, 2010 9:19 AM

I gotta ask,,,,,what's the normal value of a score like that?

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, December 22, 2010 9:28 AM

That's a mouth-watering deal, Bill.  Those were grand old kits.

The one big thing you need to be concerned about is the composition of the cast metal fittings.  For many years MS used a lead alloy, which is, by definition, extremely unstable.  Due to something colloquially known as "lead disease," it breaks down into a white powder, which can even make its way through several coats of paint in the process of wrecking a finished model.

One frustrating aspect of lead disease is its unpredictability.  When I was working in a hobby shop I saw several instances in which lead model railroad parts "flowered" beyond usability in the boxes, before we had time to sell them.  And when I was working in a maritime museum I presided over a conservation project to restore several dozen cast lead "recognition models" from World War II.  We stripped the paint off them, subjected them to electrolytic reduction (on the recommendation of a professional conservator), primed them thoroughly, repainted them, and stored them, wrapped in acid-free paper, in metal chests with plenty of air circulation. The white powder was back within six months.

I've also got some old cast lead fittings that have been knocking around in my workshop for more than thirty years, and look good as new.  The stuff seems to strike utterly arbitrarily.

A few years before selling out to Model Expo, MS started shifting over to britannia metal, which is much better stuff (though visually almost identical to lead).  If the fittings in your kits look OK, that's a very good sign that either (a) they're britannia metal or (b) the Gods of Lead Disease have decided to be merciful.  But if I were you I'd give them a really thorough examination.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Wednesday, December 22, 2010 11:39 AM

TD, that score can go for $500.00 to $750.00 or more on ebay!  These kits were just sitting on the table and people were passing them by!  But, I will build each of them instead of reselling them.

John,  I have already inspected the fittings and cannot believe how pristine they are! I concluded that they are either britannia metal or that the Gods of Lead Disease were very merciful!

Bill

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: West Virginia, USA
Posted by mfsob on Wednesday, December 22, 2010 3:20 PM

Well, shoot, no Christmas tree icon, so Yes !

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Richmond, Va.
Posted by Pavlvs on Thursday, December 23, 2010 12:57 AM

My father built the Essex and in the process, he taught me the art of model building and I've never looked back.  The ship sits in his house in a nice glass case and I keep asking him to think of "displaying" it in my office.  It builds into a beautiful ship.  I guess Saint Nick paid you an early visit.  Merry Christmas.Big Smile

Deus in minutiae est. Fr. Pavlvs

On the Bench: 1:200 Titanic; 1:16 CSA Parrott rifle and Limber

On Deck: 1/200 Arizona.

Recently Completed: 1/72 Gato (as USS Silversides)

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, December 23, 2010 9:36 AM

My strange, highly selective memory (which has no trouble recalling details of models I worked on forty years ago, but can't handle the names of people who were introduced to me last week) is trolling up some points about some of those old Model Shipways kits that may be of some slight interest.

I'd be interested to know what kind of wood the hulls in Bill's kits are made of.  For many years the standard Model Shipways hull was made of white pine, with Philippine mahogany available as an extra-cost option.  The "carving" was done under contract by a furniture company, on a lathe.  That process left a big, round spindle at each end of the hull.  A visitor to the Model Shipways plant (which was located behind a little storefront on a dead-end street in Bogota, New Jersey) would usually see a couple of nice ladies sitting at a table chiseling the spindles off hulls. 

Pine is a nice wood for many purposes, but modelers complained that its tendency to secrete juices was dangerous to paint jobs.  The nice pine that MS was using also rose in price over the years.  Sometime in (I think) the seventies, the company started switching over to "white wood," a species of, I believe, the poplar family.  It's considerably harder than pine, with a quite close grain; the heartwood sometimes has a slightly greenish cast.  Eventually (I don't know exactly when) MS switched over to basswood - arguably the best of the four. 

I believe the Essex  and Flying Fish were part of the company line from the time of its founding, or nearly so.  (That was shortly after WWII.)  The plans for both, as I remember, were drawn by a gentleman name H.S. Scott (I hope I haven't botched his name), and were among the best in the ship model kit world.  (MS has always had a reputation for producing some of the best plans in the business.)  The Rattlesnake came much later - in the sixties I think.  

I don't know much about the Mayflower except that it was based on the reconstruction by R.C. Anderson.  Dr. Anderson, of course, was one of the great ones.  His interpretation of the Mayflower was quite a bit different than that of William Baker, who designed the full-size replica Mayflower II (which is still on public display at Plymouth).  I'm pretty sure the MS kit predates the Baker reconstruction (i.e., the mid-fifties).  Some knowledgeable people like the Anderson version better.  In any case, the evidence about the real ship is so scanty that neither reconstruction can really be proven "right" or "wrong."

As originally issued, the solid, machine-carved hulls of the Essex and Rattlesnake were made with the quarterdecks and forecastles carved in place.  That meant that the guns under those decks took the form of "dummies" - stub barrels that were to be plugged into holes that the modeler drilled in the middle of the "ports," which were shallow, recessed squares chiseled into the wood at the appropriate spots.  (I remember building the Rattlesnake in that form; I never built the Essex.)  It sticks in my silly memory that, shortly before the company's original owners, John Shedd and Sam Milone, retired and sold the firm to Model Expo, they revised the Essex and Rattlesnake hulls so they were "hollowed out" down to the level of the main decks.  (I think that change, like the replacement of lead with britannia metal, was largely a bow to the increased competition from Bluejacket and other companies - including the plastic kit manufacturers.)  My memory may be completely bogus about this point.  But if your Essex and/or Rattlesnake hull is cut away to the level of the main deck, you've certainly got a relatively recent kit.

The Flying Fish was a slightly controversial subject for a while.  Sometime in (I think) the late seventies or very early eighties, MS commissioned Ben Lankford to do a complete revision of the plans.  (The old Scott version wasn't bad by any means, but MS in those days was the kind of company that was always trying to improve its products.)  Mr. Lankford produced a set of extremely detailed drawings and a new, much more detailed instruction book.  He also wrote a series of articles for the Nautical Research Journal about the project.  (I can look up the date on the Journal's CD-ROM set if anybody's interested.)  The plans - specifically the sail plan - promptly came under fire from several directions - including a nasty letter to the NRJ from no less than Donald McNarry.  It seems that Mr. Lankford - like Mr. Scott before him - had made a fundamental goof in working out the dimensions of the yards.  He'd worked from a contemporary table of spar dimensions, which, for each yard, listed the length, diameter, and "yardarm length."  (Newcomers to the hobby sometimes assume that "yard" and "yardarm" mean the same thing.  They don't.  The yardarm is the outboard extremity of the yard - the section outboard of the yardarm cleats, where the earring of the sail and various pieces of rigging are secured.  Each yard has two yardarms, port and starboard.)  Messrs. Lankford and Scott had assumed that the "yardarm length" was supposed to be added to the length of the yard; in fact it was supposed to be subtracted.  In other words, all the yards in the Scott and, now, Lankford sail plans were significantly too long.

It says a great deal about Mr. Lankford and Model Shipways that they reacted to that revelation by revising the plans.  But there was nothing they could do about the copies that had already been sold.  So three sets of Model Shipways plans for the Flying Fish are knocking around out there:  the original Scott version (with incorrect yard lengths), the first Lankford version (ditto), and the revised Lankford version (corrected). 

The good news is that Model Expo sells copies of the revised Lankford plans:   http://www.modelexpo-online.com/product.asp?ITEMNO=MSPL2018 .  (The Model Shipways Flying Fish that's currently on the market is a plank-on-bulkhead kit, but I don't think the plans have been changed significantly since Mr. Lankford's second effort; if they have, I'm sure it's only been to make them more accurate in some way.)  They aren't exactly cheap (paying $70 for plans to build a kit that cost a dollar does seem a little weird), but they're certainly worth thinking about. 

I remember one other little snippet about the Rattlesnake.  That set of plans was drawn by none other than George Campbell, who worked from an "Admiralty draught" that was made in England after the ship was captured.  The sail plan and rigging, of course, are almost entirely reconstructed by Mr. Campbell.  (I don't know whether a contemporary set of spar dimensions exists or not.)  In most respects the drawings are typical Campbell (i.e., excellent).  But he did make one mistake of omission:  he left off the headsails.  There's no indication anywhere on the plans of a jib, fore topmast staysail, fore staysail, or any other fore-and-aft sail other than the driver.  When I was working on mine (that must have been in the early seventies) I sent a letter to MS inquiring about that point.  I got back a nice letter acknowledging that the plans were simply wrong; that the Rattlesnake ought to have at least a fore topmast staysail and one jib.  

Those are the things my poor, strange old brain can recall at the moment.  Heaven only knows what it will dredge up tomorrow.  But I hope the above is of at least a little use to somebody.

 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:57 PM

John,

As usual, you make excellent and interesting points!

The Essex hull appears to be the white wood version, being very hard, tight-grained, and no bow and stern knobs.  The fo'c'sle and quarterdecks are carved on the solid hull.  The Rattlesnake is the later version with a full gundeck, again, no knobs.  You have inadvertently answered a puzzling feature of the Flying Fish kit . . . it came with two sets of plans that vary in the details of the yards, notably in length.  I was very puzzled about that but you have cleared it up!

Rolled neatly inside the box of the Mayflower was a first year edition of The Neophyte Modeler's Jackstay.  It is considerably thicker than newer editions but I haven't had time to look through to see whether there are any differences yet.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, December 24, 2010 3:46 AM

That "white wood" is nice stuff, though more difficult to work with in some ways than either pine or basswood.  It has the reputation of being a great basis for a painted finish; the grain is open and fuzzy enough to let the primer really grab hold, but tight enough to present minimal problems of filling to get a smooth result.  I would, however, advise being sure to paint every bit of it that's going to be visible on the finished model.  I'm not sure exactly what's the difference between "white wood" and the poplar sold by Lowe's stores nowadays (also nice stuff), but the latter tends to turn a dark brown or green as the years go by.

So far as I know, Model Shipways always removed the "spindles" from the bows and sterns of its hulls.  (You could usually see the knife/chisel/gouge marks where they'd been removed.)  Some time after John Shedd and Sam Milone retired, Model Expo, the new owners, deleted all the solid-hull kits from its catalog.  Some - not all - came back a few years later as plank-on-bulkhead kits.  (Examples:  the Fair American, Sultana, and Flying Fish.)  Then, just three or four years ago (I think; don't trust my memory), MS. started selling solid hulls again.  I have a vague memory of reading on another website that the old furniture company that had previously turned the hulls had gone out of business, and that the Model Expo folks had just found another firm that could handle the job.  I don't think I've had my hands on a recent Model Shipways machine-carved hull.  My guess, though, is that the marks where the spindles were are still there.

I wasn't aware that MS had ever sold the Flying Fish with two sets of plans!  I wonder if the original owner of Bill's kit bought it with the first set of Lankford plans, found out about the error in the yard lengths, and ordered a replacement.  I'd bet money on one point:  if that's what did happen, MS sent him the new ones for free.

My guess (which, like many of my other guesses, may well be wrong) is that the old Jackstay is identical in content to what Model Expo is selling today.  I seem to have a (very) vague recollection that the page size changed at some time (probably due to a change of printers); if that's the case, the thickness probably changed too.  And I remember having a conversation with Sam Milone in which he said that he and John Shedd were thinking about a second volume - a "Jackstay No. 2."  But I don't think that came to anything. 

This thread is bringing back lots of nice memories of those bright yellow boxes and that little storefront in suburban Jersey.  And those wonderful little catalogs - which listed every fitting in every kit.  (I remember reading myself to sleep with MS catalogs more than once when I was a youngster.)  Whenever I was in the New England neighborhood I made it a point to stop by Model Shipways - either before or after (depending on which direction I was headed) a stop in Norwalk, Connecticut to visit Bluejacket.  (The two were less than two hours apart.)  John and Sam were two of the finest gents I've ever had the pleasure to meet - and they always rolled out the red carpet for visitors.  Sam was guilty of one horrible sin:  he was a New York Yankees fan.  (My loyalties were first to the Cincinnati Reds, then to the Boston Red Sox.)  But I forgave him.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, December 24, 2010 6:30 AM

John,

I too am a Yankees fan, but I forgive you for your Red Sox sin!  Toast  My National League team is the SF Giants, being from San Francisco originally.  The first season I remember was 1961. My mom (a HUGE St. Louis Cardinals fan) got me interested in baseball at the tended age of 6 by tracking Roger Maris' and Mickey Mantle's home run stats and  Sandy Koufax's strikeout stats.  It's one of my fondest memories.

One of my fondest memories of those MS catalogs were the building hints sandwiched in the middle, such as "How to Model Sails".  I share the memory of reading mysef to sleep reading those catalogs as well.  And those bright yellow boxes are still nice!  These kits are so pristine that the boxes still retain their shine!

I also have a newer version of the Sultana. I can see no carving marks at either the bow or stern.

Bill

  • Member since
    January 2011
Posted by essex ship dummy on Tuesday, January 4, 2011 11:46 AM

i just bought this model shipways  32 gun frigate essex its not put together got all pces and paper work i think its dated 1953  model shipways, ft. lee, n.j. J.R.Stevens 5/64'' scale. is it of value.

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Rain USA, Vancouver WA
Posted by tigerman on Tuesday, January 4, 2011 9:48 PM

Wow, that was a steal. I never have luck at such sales.

   http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/wing_nut_5o/PANZERJAGERGB.jpg

 Eric 

  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: CT
Posted by Seamac on Wednesday, January 5, 2011 8:58 AM

Hi warshipguy,

Please keep this confidential, as I wouldn’t want word to get out that I normally would do this but... I'll offer you $2 per kit, that's a 100% profit !!!!!!!!!

OK, probably not.  Congrat's on your extraordinary find, especially the Essex as the larger model is difficult to find.  Professor Tilley is a tremendous resourse to us all and his insight/hindsight into the details and corrections has probably kept many from making mistakes hard to fix after completion.

Happy New Year! (probably didn’t have to say that...)

Seamac 

Seamac
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Wednesday, January 5, 2011 11:30 AM

Essex,

I have seen that particular model of the Essex go for between $30.00 and $75.00 on EBay, so the real answer is that it depends on who is looking for that kit.  It does build into a nice model!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: CT
Posted by Seamac on Wednesday, January 5, 2011 12:47 PM

Hi Bill,

I've seen the smaller (13" hull carving) go for that amount, if you have the larger version, which I believe is in the 18" - 22" range, it is much rarer and has gone for over $150 on Ebay.  Usually in the $125 + range.  But Ebay can be strange - one day a model might go for $100, another for $200 and yet another day the same kit sells for $30.  I guess it all depends on who is looking, how much they want it, and whether a bidding war starts.

I'm sure you will have fun building those kits - one thing I like about Model Shipway kits are there "ease" of building.  They have great detail parts, great plans and the instructions are fairly well done.  I know Model Expo used to have pdf versions of the instructions available as a free download - they are even more detailed than the originals.  (one exception - most of the kits you have are POF as offered by ME).

I have a question for the group - was Marine Models acquired by Model Shipways?  The kits seem to be virtually the same in quality and construction and MM disappeared about the time MS began to offer some of the same kits.  This one is probably Professor Tilley's area of expertise.Seamac

Seamac
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Thursday, January 6, 2011 12:21 AM

I had two Model Shipways kits come through my younger life. The first was the Gjoa, prompted in no small part by the fact that the actual sloop is here, although quite neglected back in those times, the 60's. Having pretty successfully completed that, and been given a trip to Norway by my parents to stay with relatives, Dad bought me the Fair American. That one was over my 12 year old head and is sadly lost.

Dad still has my Gjoa in his den.

Poplar is a species used typically for architectural trim like baseboards and crowns. I suspect it's advantages are that it grows fast and takes to power machinery well. Home Depot is full of the stuff.

I recently bought a Scientific Cutty Sark at a church basement sale. Other than the fact that I donated money to a good cause, it was a waste of $ 15.00. But I figure I could trade it to you for your MS haul and you'd make $11 on the deal.

HAR!!Pirate

 

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Thursday, January 6, 2011 6:58 AM

Bondoman and SeaMac,

I just finished checking for missing parts . . . All parts are present.  Therefore, NO SALE!!!!!   Toast

Bill

P.S.   Scientific????  Ugh!    HAR!! Pirate

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, January 6, 2011 11:01 AM

I can't add anything to what other folks have said about the two Model Shipways Essex kits.  The two of them appeared alongside each other in the company catalog for as long as I can remember.  Both had plans by Mr. Stevens; the smaller one obviously wasn't as detailed, and had fewer cast fittings.  I never bought either of them

I'd have to do some digging to be sure, but I think Marine Models was on the scene before Model Shipways.  MS was founded shortly after WWII; it sticks in my mind that Marine Models was around for at least a few years before the war.  (I think there's an article somewhere on the Nautical Research Journal CD-ROM that sorts this out; if anybody's really interested I'll look it up.)  Actually there were quite a few firms like that in those days; Bluejacket, under its original name Boucher Models, goes all the way back to 1905.  And A.J. Fisher was founded in 1925; it's recently been reborn under new management.

I have the impression that, by the forties, Model Shipways (in New Jersey) and Marine Models (on Long Island) were the two biggest players in the solid-hull wood kit game.  I don't remember when Marine Models went out of business; it sticks in my mind that it may have been in the late sixties or early seventies.  But I may be wrong about that.

At any rate, Marine Models was around for a long, long time, and, as one would expect, the quality of its merchandise changed considerably over the years.  I vaguely remember buying one or two of the cheaper MM kits; I don't think I ever finished one.  But I did get close-up looks at quite a few others.  My recollection is that the best of them could compete on equal terms with the best of Model Shipways or Bluejacket, and the worst were...well, pretty awful.  

I don't think Model Shipways ever actually acquired Marine Models - as a ship model kit manufacturer - per se.  It's true that several subjects that were once in the MM line (the Charles W. Morgan  and H.M.S. Bounty's launch come to mind) have been picked up by MS, but I think those are entirely different kits, independently developed.  Just in the past couple of years, though Model Expo has released a series of large-scale, cast-metal artillery kits that quite obviously (as ME forthrightly states) are based on old Marine Models kits - which, I believe, were on the market as early as the forties.  The original MM kits, with a few exceptions, had beautiful turned brass barrels; the ME ones have cast britannia ones.

Fascinating stuff, and quite an exercise in nostalgia.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2011
Posted by ragc on Friday, March 4, 2011 8:16 PM

Update?  Just joined the forum!

I ran into this thread while looking for information on the Essex model back in January.  My wife and I were looking around an old junk store back then, and found a 1/8" scale version, complete, for $45.00.  

I had started a Model Shipways Gjoa 25 years ago and had to set it aside because of lack of time, so I looked up the old Gjoa  in the basement and decided to finish it as practice before tackling the Essex.  Most of the Gjoa castings were missing, so I've had to scratch-build a lot from the photos and drawings, but it is going well.  I did find the Anatomy of a Ship book on the Essex and have it for when I begin that model.

Here is the Gjoa, with the first of the sails up.  Everything on deck except for the water barrels is scratch-built.  The crows nest and marker lamps are also scratch-built.  This is my first wooden ship model, but I am an old HO scale railroad modeler...

 

  • Member since
    March 2011
Posted by ragc on Friday, March 4, 2011 8:17 PM

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/Gjoa DSC_4360 -1s:550:0]

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, March 5, 2011 6:43 AM

Ragc,

Welcome! That 1/8 scale find is also an exceptional value!  Does the hull have the carved-on forecastle and poop, or does it have the full gundeck?  Also, that is a nice build of the Gjoa!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    March 2011
Posted by ragc on Saturday, March 5, 2011 7:17 AM

Thanks, Bill.  This is the version carved down to the lower gun deck!  I am very excited about the find...

DSC_3680 -1s:550:0

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, March 5, 2011 8:55 AM

Ragc

You should be!  It is an incredible find. But, I really like what you have done with Gjoa!  I hope John Tilley joins in with his observations.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    March 2011
Posted by ragc on Saturday, March 5, 2011 9:02 AM

Thank you very much... learning as I go!  I had built plastic sailing ships before, but the wood ships are much more interesting.  I have in mind to scratch-build a Greek trireme based on the Olympias reconstruction someday...

 

 

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/31561521@N04/5486231557/" title="Gjoa DSC_4365 -1s by rafael a garcia, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5096/5486231557_6ddffbc9f6.jpg" width="500" height="339" alt="Gjoa DSC_4365 -1s" /></a>

  • Member since
    March 2011
Posted by ragc on Saturday, March 5, 2011 9:03 AM

Gjoa DSC_4365 -1s:

 

sorry, still getting used to how this site handles images...

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, March 5, 2011 10:17 AM

Now that would be interesting!  I did a study on ancient warships in my Grad School days.  You propose an idea that I might follow!

Bill

  • Member since
    February 2012
Posted by philleaggie on Saturday, July 7, 2012 7:15 PM

I acquired a Model Shipways Essex kit that my dad hadn't opened since he bought it, probably 20 years ago or more. The metal components are putting off and are covered in a black powder, not a white powder. Is this a different problem? The paperwork in the box references "Model Shipways, a division of Model Expo", so perhaps these components were made post lead disease era? I have photos of the parts and the dust if that would help. Also, do you think Model Expo could just sell me a new box of replacement parts should I need them?

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