help with Cutty Sark rigging...

Bugatti Fan

I have seen fully rigged ship models in very small scales where the builder has used various thicknesses of fine copper wire positioned and painted to simulate the standing and running rigging.

 

For small scale sailing ships folks are now offering photo-etched shroud/ratline assemblies.  These work for about 1:350 through 1:600, depending on the size of the ship.  I used them on my recent thread on building the Revell HMS Victory in 1:450.

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/7/t/179829.aspx

Tying ratlines in small scale is really tedious and difficult, so I believe this is why they only offer these.  They can be adapted to many ships, running rigging is pretty unique.

Hello Bruce, welcome aboard.

I don't recommend the Revell instructions, at least on their own.

A very good set of plans is available from the CS Museum online, I believe drawn originally by George Campbell.

Try Tyvek, building wrap,  for sails, it is flexible and does not tear like plastic, (Vac-U-Form). Hardware stores sell BIG rolls, I stopped at a construction site and asked for the winod/door cutouts, something they would throw away. revell does has 1/96 risgging instructions on line, they are now part of the asembly brochure. My recentle acquired Cutting Sark, came with Thermopylar rigging instructions , but not for studding sails. I printed page 42 of the instructions sheet.

I posted some time ago and forgot to mention a book that was published in the 1970's by a company named Patrick Stephens Publishers of Bar Hill ,Cambridge England.  The book is long out of print but is devoted to building and rigging the Airfix Cutty Sark. The Author was Noel Hackney. There were 3 books in all about the Cutty Sark, Victory and the Mayflower by the same author. The same publisher printed a series of books at the time about super detailing the 1/24th scale Airfix Aircraft kits at the time.

Antique booksellers or hobby shows may yield some of these books from time to time. Or try Ebay.

I feel that a little advice needs to be made clear here. The process of rigging a ship model like the Cutty Sark is a long and very involved one. There are certainly levels you can take it to. A case in point is my big Victory. I plan to finish her with just the lower masts in place. Now, this will take me another year or so, by which time I am going to be so tired of the thing it may just stay that way.

But when you consider the amount of time you'll spend rigging, and the value of that time, it only makes sense to start with a good model to begin with. Otherwise it's like putting 23 hand rubbed coats of paint on a Pinto. There's a number of really nice fairly simple ship models out there, IMO many by Revell.

If it were me, I'd go ahead and finish your clipper, but not rig her. At a maximum, as John noted the basic elements of the standing rigging, the stuff that holds the masts and yards up. Concentrate on your assembly and painting skills, and if you find in your research that there are details you consider inaccurate, try your hand at kit bashing them.

I build a lot of models, maybe 20 or so a year. I cannot remember the last fully rigged ship I built, but I'm sure it was the Revell Constitution and it must have been 25 years ago.

And you really must have another build or two going just to give you respite. Like the Lindberg Lightship, one of those nifty new Chinese models of modern destroyers or the Revell Hawaiian Pilot. Just for variety.

Just my

As you start on your journey to getting hooked on ship models, one of the tricks they don't tell you about in the instructions will help you with the problem of slack lines.  When you initially tie off the ends, don't glue them down, particularly if you are working on a should, backstay or a running line that has both a port and starboard line, or as with the case of shrouds a set.  Get either the pairs or sets of lines in their basic positions, leaving enough line to work with. Instead of cutting it off to soon.  Then once the port starboard pair or set of shrouds is on, start adjusting each line to remove slack.  This can take a while, but I have found it to be effective in removing slack.  Also, I tend to not just glue the end of the line to the plastic, but try to tie it as close to the way the actual line would have been tied on the real ship.  Not always possible, but you end up with a more realistic looking model.

Perez

Hello Wojswillo, I forgives for the interference, but I have seen that  you are from Klaipeda and in a few days I will travel to your city and it wanted to know if in your city there is some shop of modellismo and if you could give me his direction. Thank you.

Perez,

Klaipeda hasn't a specilized modeling shop. There are some shops, that are selling plastic model kits (usual Revell's, Airfix's and Zvezda's), and that's all.

In Kaunas there is shop "Poligonas", in Vilnius - few modeling-specialized shops.

Write to me by PM ("Conversations" at this forum), if You want more info.

CapnMac82's idea is an excellent one in many cases.  Unfortunately, though, it won't work on this tiny, old, ex-Aurora Cutty Sark.  Unless I'm very much mistaken, the kit has no belaying pins - or if it represents them at all, they're shown as barely recognizable bumps inside the bulwarks.

This is one of the many reasons why I always suggest (though I almost invariably get ignored) that newcomers to sailing ship modeling start with a relatively small ship on a relatively large scale.  Turning that little old Aurora kit into a precisely-detailed, fully-rigged model would take a veteran modeler months, if not years, of work - and would entail replacing so many parts that the result would be almost scratchbuilt.

Again, my suggestion - since this is a first effort - is to do an extremely simplified job of rigging:  the shrouds (maybe bite the bullet and let the plastic ones in the kit suffice), the stays, the backstays, the braces, and the lifts.  That adds up to several dozen lines.  The results, if you work carefully and patiently, will by a nice-looking model and a good introduction to the hobby.

Another "trick" for the neophyte rigger is to rig "backwards."

That is, start at the belaying pin and work back to where ever the "bitter end" of the line terminates.

This can be very handy as you are making up knots, or dabbing super glue or the like out at the "ends" of things.  Which also means you are not putting big lateral forces on the belaying pins, nor attempting to reach into crowded areas while also maintaining tension on the line.

Coils of line may be draped over the belaying pins later (as the scale allows).

Hello Wojswillo, I forgives for the interference, but I have seen that  you are from Klaipeda and in a few days I will travel to your city and it wanted to know if in your city there is some shop of modellismo and if you could give me his direction. Thank you.

I have seen fully rigged ship models in very small scales where the builder has used various thicknesses of fine copper wire positioned and painted to simulate the standing and running rigging.

Patti, please write Your email by PM.

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I'd echo JTilley's remarks that as a beginner, the maxim 'less is more' is eminently suitable for small scale model ships. If you can set up the shrouds and stays nicely, a further bit of simple running rigging will create a very neat effect. Concentrate on the basics. By way of personal experience, I remember around 10 years ago I chose the Lindberg 'Charles W. Morgan' as my first sailing ship model (a really very nice model actually, and comparable to your Cutty Sark at a scale of around 1/196 scale). In my enthusiasm I tried to do too much on the rigging and the overall effect was too over scale and 'busy'. A few years later, in my frustration I 'struck the topmasts' of this model and subsequently removed all but the lower standing rigging. You don't see many models of ships with the topmasts struck down, and it looks quite cool now.

The only other tips I would offer (as a modeller of very modest ability compared to many on here) is to invest in a few tools to make your life easier- primarily a good set of tweezers (i.e only 1mm or so broad at their point) and a few haemostats to hold your loose lines.

Somewhat contingent on the former clause, I'd also consider fixing your model to some sort of base so when you run lines about the model you can then 'pin' the loose ends down to the baseboard to prevent things getting tangled or that most frustrating of rigging woes- pulling the carefully threaded line clean through the hole... This latter point is also useful if you don't have a dedicated workshop and need to move the model around at the end of each session. Trust me, moving a partly rigged model can be dangerous business: In my carelessness I have carried away a mast before by standing on a trailing line...

Good luck. I'm sure after a few evenings of generously-scattered expletives, you will become addicted to rigging ships!

Will

I'm not a fan of cloth sails either - except on very large scales (say, 3/16"=1' or bigger).

Silkspan tissue isn't hard to find if you look n the right places.  Its most common use in the hobby world is as a covering for flying model ("balsa and tissue") aircraft.  Any hobby shop or mail order dealer who caters to that sort of modeling will sell silkspan - in big sheets and in various weights.

The thinnest silkspan I've encountered, though, is sold in the form of lens tissue at camera stores.  (At least it sure looks, feels, and handles like silkspan.)  That's the material I normally use for furled sails on small-scale models.

On a model that's on as small a scale as cnowak's - especially since it's a first effort - my strong recommendation is to leave the sails off completely.  A clipper ship under "bare poles" can be a thing of great beauty.  The modeler does need to pay due attention to the positions of the yards; Mr. Campbell's book explains that point.

For the record, it is possible to make a mighty impressive set of billowing sails out of paper on a small-scale model.  I don't pretend to be able to do it, but the late Donald McNarry was a master of the technique.  Here's a link to some pictures of a few of his models:  http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Donald+McNarry+ship+models&qpvt=Donald+McNarry+ship+models&FORM=IGRE .  (He used to have a website with a better assortment of photos on it but that site appears to be gone now.  These will just give a hint of what I'm talking about.  Mr. McNarry unfortunately passed away, aged 89, a few months ago.)

Another alternative is to represent the sails in their furled state.  Here's a link to a discussion of that subject:  http://www.modelshipwrightsdatabase.com/Articles/10ScaleSails.htm .

All that not withstanding, I still suggest that the best course for a newcomer - especially one who's working on such a small scale - is to leave the sails off.  Concentrate on doing a good, clean job of the standing rigging and the basic running rigging (say, the braces, lifts, and a few other lines).  You'll find that's more than enough to keep you busy.

Wojszwillo

cnowak:

Another thing I am confronted with is the sails the kit provides paper sails but I think that would look terrible.

 

If there will be plastic sails, like on Revell's or Airfix's Cutty Sark, there will be more terrible look... You can make by yourself cloth sails or make model without sails.

As for rigging - George Campbell's plans are wery good source, but i don't imagine, that You can use them in "full power" at the scale 1:180.

I have both Revell 1:96 and Airfix 1:130 kits and can scan rigging instructions, but in both cases rigging instructions are not accurate and simplyfied; in other hand - you are building model in scale 1:180, so Airfix instructions should be sufficient, i think.

Let me know, do You want them scanned.

 The plastic sail can be used as a template mold for a model.  Cut out a section of the silkpan that is larger than the plastic sail, soak this section of the silkspan sail in liquid starch. Remove this wet silkspan sail and place it on top of the plastic sail and let it completly dry. When dry, the silkspan sail will assume the billowing shape of the plastic sail. Carefully, I emphasize carefully, remove the sail from the mold, trim it with a pair of scissors, affix it to the yard and attach it to the model. It works if done carefully.

    Montani  semper liberi !       Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                               Crackers                        

If you are going to scan them, I would appreciate a copy of the scanned images as well. Thanks in advance.

Patti

If  you could scan them in for me that would be great thank you

cnowak

Another thing I am confronted with is the sails the kit provides paper sails but I think that would look terrible.

If there will be plastic sails, like on Revell's or Airfix's Cutty Sark, there will be more terrible look... You can make by yourself cloth sails or make model without sails.

As for rigging - George Campbell's plans are wery good source, but i don't imagine, that You can use them in "full power" at the scale 1:180.

I have both Revell 1:96 and Airfix 1:130 kits and can scan rigging instructions, but in both cases rigging instructions are not accurate and simplyfied; in other hand - you are building model in scale 1:180, so Airfix instructions should be sufficient, i think.

Let me know, do You want them scanned.

Thank you all very much for this info I just order George Campell's book so I am looking forward to diving into that when I get it. The model I am doing of the Cutty Sark is not the best I am assuming and the reason I am guess is I wanted to go simple and so I went cheap which I am now regretting. The dimensions of the model I built are 1-180 scale, 36 cm long, 23 high. Another thing I am confronted with is the sails the kit provides paper sails but I think that would look terrible. any suggestions?

There are a few books on rigging model ships, but these detail full rigging and may be more than what you are looking for.

Model sailing ships are probably the most complicated genre of model building, because of the rigging (although planked hull wooden ship kits are even worse because hull planking is another tedious time-consuming operation).  Many plastic kits have simplified rigging, but usually this simplified rigging does not look that good.  For a plastic ship kit of a three masted ship, the rigging is a major operation, taking longer than all the rest of the building of the kit put together. I know very few ship modelers who can do a decent job of rigging in much less than a year.

I would recommend at this point putting the Cutty Sark aside for awhile and picking up a simpler kit, a one or two masted vessel, to learn rigging on.  One suggestion is the Midwest series of ship/boat kits.  They are wooden models, but the hulls are not too complicated. None of the ships in their line have extensive, complicated rigging, and the instructions in Midwest kits are top notch.  Model Expo is one large mail order house that handles the Midwest line.

John Tilley's lead fot the George Cmpbell will give you all the information that you will need about rigging the Cutty Sark. I bought a set years ago and they are just the best you will get.  I think that the SMER kit is from the old Merit kit from many years ago. The Airfix kit is from memory much better as the basis for a really accurate model if you want a reasonably sized model that will  not dominate the house!

There is a book that was published by Model and Allied Publications authored by Harold Underhill about modelling this particular ship. It has been out of print for some time now. This book is an excellent resource about detailing the ship, although it was based on Harold Underhill's building of a large scale wooden model that now resides in the Science Museum in London.

Hope this helps also.

Yes, welcome indeed.

Here's a site that is indepensible for Revell modelers:

http://www.revell.com/support/instructions.html

Unfortunately they don't have the Cutty Sark, but the Humbolt and the Morgan aren't bad for the basics.

Take it in steps, trust me a good ship model takes a long time to build.

And please, pictures! If you need to know how to post them, there's a number of tutorials on this site. Do a search- Bill Grigg wrote a comprehensive one.

BTW don't tell the other fellas, but I bought a model of a boat with a crew of two this afternoon.

First, welcome to the Forum!  You'll find it a useful and, generally speaking, congenial place.  It does have some rather strange inhabitants, but most of us are relatively harmless.

There have been quite a few plastic Cutty Sark kits over the years.  I think the Smer one is a reissue of some other company's, but I'm not sure which one.  I did find one ad for it on the web - with the overall length.  I think it may - may - be an old Aurora kit from the 1950s.  If so, that's not the best news.

At any rate, if you're new to ship model rigging you need to start with a good, basic book that explains how rigging works.  My favorite is an old classic:  George Campbell's The Neophyte Shipmodeler's Jackstay.  It's been around for more than fifty years, and it concentrates on wood ship models, but in terms of rigging that doesn't matter much.  Anybody who learns everything in that little book will be well on the way to becoming knowledgeable about sailing ship technology.  And the price is right.  Here's a link:  http://www.modelexpo-online.com/product.asp?ITEMNO=MSB110 .

If you have a serious interest in the Cutty Sark, there's a particularly good, attractive source:  the plans of the ship drawn by Mr. Campbell and sold through the ship's gift shop.  There are three sheets, two of which deal with the sails and rigging; the three sheets combined contain just about every bit of information anybody could conceivably need in building a replica of the ship.  And the price is surprisingly low - and profits go to the restoration of the ship.  Here's the link:  http://www.cuttysark.org.uk/index.cfm?fa=contentShop.productDetails&productId=14853&startrow=1&directoryId=345 .  One of the great bargains in ship modeling.  Be warned, though:  the sheer amount of information on those three sheets of paper can be pretty overwhelming.  For a first-time project, on such a small scale, I'd recommend a relatively modest approach to the rigging.

Hope that helps at least a little bit.  Good luck.