E-boats in Italian service-photos?

Some overlap with German claims for the Pedestal action I see. So German S-boats had no success that evening although they were roughly half the boats present? Seems like some pro-Italian revisionist work afoot.

 Bira mentioned is a 800ton class river gunboat.

I should delete York and Pericles as they were not from conventional motor torpedo boats.

Felix C.

Here is a list from different sources. Does this match the one in Warship 2009?

1. HMS York by MTM. Ship previously damaged
2. Tanker Pericles by MTM
3. HMS Manchester by MS16 & MS22
4. Freighter Glenorchy by MS31. Ship previously damaged
5. Freighter Almeria Lakes by MAS 554
6. Freighter Wairangi by MAS 557
7. Freighter Sydney Star by MAS 532
8. Soviet Freighter Abkhaziya of 5000 tons, Mas 571
9. Soviet Freighter Gruziya of10,000tons, MTSM 210
10. Soviet cruiser Molotov (Kirov class) by MAS 568
11. HMS Eridge by MTSM
12. HMS Capetown by MAS213
13. Soviet submarine SHCH-214 by Mas 571

Hi Felix,

No, the WARSHIP 2009 article list is slightly different:

Capetown, Sydney Star, Abkhaziya, SHCH214. Molotov, Wairangi, Almerya Lykes, Santa Eliza, Rochester Castle, Manchester, Glenorchy, Bira, Eridge.

Al Ross

Here is a list from different sources. Does this match the one in Warship 2009?

1. HMS York by MTM. Ship previously damaged
2. Tanker Pericles by MTM
3. HMS Manchester by MS16 & MS22
4. Freighter Glenorchy by MS31. Ship previously damaged
5. Freighter Almeria Lakes by MAS 554
6. Freighter Wairangi by MAS 557
7. Freighter Sydney Star by MAS 532
8. Soviet Freighter Abkhaziya of 5000 tons, Mas 571
9. Soviet Freighter Gruziya of10,000tons, MTSM 210
10. Soviet cruiser Molotov (Kirov class) by MAS 568
11. HMS Eridge by MTSM
12. HMS Capetown by MAS213
13. Soviet submarine SHCH-214 by Mas 571

A couple years back, the ITALERI website indicated that they were working on a 1/72 scale MS61 kit but it no longer appears on the site.  While I'm absolutely delighted they came out with the 1/35 MAS 568, it would have been nice to have a kit of MS 61 as well. 

Al Ross

Mr. Ross,

Just to set you straight on this matter?

I am the LEAD author on that book ... and the reason why Mr. Krakow was GIVEN a co-authorship on that book was because it would be only fair to do so, since he was able to secure photos that I was not able to ...

He was not a co-author from the book's inception ... MOST of the text, and when I say most, I mean 90% of it is mine.

Garth

PTConsultingNHR

German manned Schnellboote?  As in those operated by the Kriegsmarine and not the "copies" in the Regina Marina, correct?

If you'd look in my SCHNELLBOOT IN ACTION

...

Mike,

German manned Schnellboote?  As in those operated by the Kriegsmarine and not the "copies" in the Regina Marina, correct?

If you'd look in my SCHNELLBOOT IN ACTION, you will see a German Schnellboot entering an Italian city's port where its CO was named Governor (for a short time, I believe) of that city.  So, yes, there were Schnellboote in the Med.

And, I've heard that US PT boats engaged them in that theater as well.

Garth

Felix C.

Other than the Pedestal action in conjunction with German S-boats..did Italian MAS or MS boats torpedo any other ships or submarines?

The article by Bagnasco, Cernuchi, and O'Hara in WARSHIP 2009 provides a table entitled "Major MAS, MS, and  MTM SUCCESSES 1940-1943" which lists 13 vessels damaged or sunk.  Two of the sinkings are credited to MS16 and MS31.

Al Ross 

Garth -

Were there any of German manned S boats in the Med? From what I can find on the web, there is an indication of at least 7 German manned S (E) boats in operation against "Operation Pedestal".

August 13 -Passing through minefields between Africa and Sicily around midnight, the convoy met eight Italian and seven German torpedo-boats which made 15 attacks. This was the same day that the HMS Manchester received the fatal attack by the 2 Italian boats based on the S design.

Mike T.

Other than the Pedestal action in conjunction with German S-boats..did Italian MAS or MS boats torpedo any other ships or submarines?

The Regina Marina wanted a number of the Lurssen designed Schnellboote, but Germany, for a reason I could not discover, never sold them any.  But, the Italians did capture six Schnellboote which were operated by the Yugoslavs and used these as templates for a number of Italian boats.  These were designated MS boats (motosilranti) ....

I cover these boats in my new book which will be released on April 1, 2011.

RADM Maurizio Ertreo, the Italian Navy and an expert named Vincent O'Hara had a hand in my research for this book and Mr. O'Hara wrote a two-part article on the motor torpedo boats of the Regina Marina and the Italian Navy which appeared in WARSHIP.

So, Italy did have a boat which was derived from the Lurssen design.

Garth

Thank you Al for that information. There is so much information on the Italian military of WWII that is just not available in English. I was not aware of these ex-Yugoslavian boats and the further developments.

Mike T.

Not to my knowledge.  I MAS is part of the "Ufficio Storico della Marina Militare"  (Official History of the Italian Navy) series and was published in 1969.  In 1998, I MAS was split into two volumes with expanded coverage.  The volume with this information is UNITA VELOCI COSTIERE ITALIANE.  These are carefully researched books based on primary sources and are full of drawings and photos.  You can probably get a copy through interlibrary loan.

Al Ross 

Is there an English language ed. of Bagnasco's book?

If by E-boats you mean the triple-screwed motor torpedo boats designed and built by Lurssen, the answer is yes - sorta.  Prior to WWII, Lurssen built eight 28m Sboote based on the design for S-1 for Yugoslavia. During WWII, six of these boats were captured and put into service with the Italian Navy.  Initially designated MAS 2D-8D, they were later redesignated MS (motosiluranti - motor torpedo boat in English) 41-46. 

A follow-on group of 18 (MS11-16, 21-26, 31-36) were built by CRDA in Monfalcone, Italy during 1942.  Another 17 (MS51-56, 61-66, 71-75) were built by the same yard during 1943.

Post-WWII, what is thought be be ex-S67 was acquired by the Italians and eventually designated MC 485.

The above information was derived from Erminio Bagnasco's I MAS E LE MOTOSILURANTI ITALIANE and Harold Fock's FAST FIGHTING BOATS, both of which (but especially I MAS) provide far more detailed information.

Al Ross

knox, I think you read it wrong. The Germans sent eboats to the Med and operated with the RM for convoy protection and the like. For one, they coordinated the torpedo attack of the Operation Pedestal convoy with the Italian 500 series MAS boats.

I picked up the same kit myself and that is how I read that portion.

Mike T.