News from the Navy !

Curious as to why they should be naked together, or feel comfortable seeing each other nude ? I've worked on every single Boomer in the fleet, never once has another male seen me without clothes on. I've spent nearly 2 years at sea as a civilian on sea trials, shakedowns and through-out various ships and boats deployments. Including a trip with the Tiawan navy destroyers  4 month deployment from N.Charleston to their naval base, no one saw me naked on any of those. The USS Maine is slated to hit the PSNS in late 2011  for its "segregated" berthing and restroom/shower. Men and women don't see one another naked anywhere in the military, without dual consent of course. Why is this supposed to change ? It makes ZERO sense at all. Some of the people commenting on my post really need to do some more reading before they spout off a comment ! As for the idea of having an all female boat, they did that look it up ! I played 3 different sports in high school all 3 had different locker rooms for each sport and still no one saw me naked there either. The only privacy there was the language and what you said about girls or teachers and things like a playbook or signals. PLEASE do some more reading everyone !!! The links below will get  you started with the facts, not others opinions of facts or hearsay...  

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/10/navy-4-subs-to-get-women-crew-members-102110w/

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/05/navy_women_subs_051110w/

Comprehensive look at the female berthing 'refit'

http://militarytimes.com/multimedia/interactive/sub_berthing

Pavlvs

My father, a career submarine officer of 25 years said it best in my opinion.  Nobody doubts anybody's qualifications or professionalism.  Sea Trials last a couple of weeks typically and women are qualified and able to go on sea trials but a patrol lasts several months and a submarine is not like a surface ship.  There is NO privacy and my father said that for women and men to serve on a submarine, you would have to have them able to be naked in each others' presence and there be no problems and if that is so, then there is a still different problem.  Have a boat with an all woman crew if you want to have women serve on subs but for the same reason that there was objection in the Air Force about women and men sharing a missile silo duty, there are the same types of objections for women on submarines.  In the military, all social conventions and mores and customs must take a back seat to combat readiness.  That is what the military is for.  If something is likely to make a unit regardless of branch of service, less effective you do not do it.  Yes people are able to control themselves but it is immoral to place a person in a situation that is certainly to tempt them to immoral action.  I agree that a co-ed submarine is a bad idea.

One of those seven admirals is my brother.  I am not ignorant of all of the ins and outs of this situation.  A submarine is as private as a locker room.  If men and women are capable of acting as adults (and I do not doubt that they are) then let's remove the men's and women's signs from locker room and restroom doors.

My father, a career submarine officer of 25 years said it best in my opinion.  Nobody doubts anybody's qualifications or professionalism.  Sea Trials last a couple of weeks typically and women are qualified and able to go on sea trials but a patrol lasts several months and a submarine is not like a surface ship.  There is NO privacy and my father said that for women and men to serve on a submarine, you would have to have them able to be naked in each others' presence and there be no problems and if that is so, then there is a still different problem.  Have a boat with an all woman crew if you want to have women serve on subs but for the same reason that there was objection in the Air Force about women and men sharing a missile silo duty, there are the same types of objections for women on submarines.  In the military, all social conventions and mores and customs must take a back seat to combat readiness.  That is what the military is for.  If something is likely to make a unit regardless of branch of service, less effective you do not do it.  Yes people are able to control themselves but it is immoral to place a person in a situation that is certainly to tempt them to immoral action.  I agree that a co-ed submarine is a bad idea.

One of those seven admirals is my brother.  I am not ignorant of all of the ins and outs of this situation.  A submarine is as private as a locker room.  If men and women are capable of acting as adults (and I do not doubt that they are) then let's remove the men's and women's signs from locker room and restroom doors.

My beef with Big Navy is that they put PC over everything now.  I'll bet that the officer in the OP's original comment is hugely qualified for the job, heck maybe even more than Rickover himself.  I'm just saying that the Navy is more concerned with it's image, it's just a side benefit when qualified people are placed in these billets and a disaster when some folks are fast tracked to show how diverse the Navy is.   

And...1: Yes I've been to sea, 2: I don't believe that I ever commented on sexual relations while at sea.  But if you must know my feelings about it...I don't support it.

I suppose PS1 has never been to sea, at least on a submarine.  If he had, he would know that there simply is no room or privacy for sexual activity, unless the perpetrators want to get caught (as in the case of gay men in the past who wanted to be discharged from the Navy).  Oh well, ignorance is bliss.

Again, women have proven themselves time and again as true naval professionals; get over your bigotries and accept reality.  It isn't PC; it is simply recognising that the Navy has real personnel assets who have something to offer the service and the nation.  It is also recognition that our great nation is all about equality, rights, and freedom, not about narrow-minded bigotry. Women have the same right to advance their chosen careers as do men. The last time I checked, this is still the United States of America, which is governed by the Constitution (which every service member swears to uphold and defend!)

Oh my, I even heard that women have the right to vote!  Civilization did not end in 1920 and it won't end with women attached to submarines.

Bill Morrison

Wow you might as well call them prostitutes ! I'm sure that is also how you would view your daughter if you have one or neice perhaps, if she were a sailor ? As someone to spend her watchbill on her knees, or on her back ? Truely ignorant, sad that someone can have such lopsided and simple minded view about women. It's even worse to know that someone like this has served our country and defended our freedom. The very freedom my wife provides him today. Sure she hasn't served on the front line, but she taught over 1100 young men and women how to, by operating nuclear reactors. Truely sad...

Non Sibi, Sed Patrea - Not for self, but country

Big Navy has fully embraced PC Doctrine at the expense of all other concerns.  I'll bet female pinning ceremony's will be limited to polite clapping while wearing white opera gloves and the occasional subdued "bravo".  Nothing but one big hand holding family now.   

EdGrune

p38jl:

Hey.. dumb question... what is IMF and you say Bangor ? Bangor , where ?

 

Intermediate Maintenance Facility,  SubBase Bangor,  Bangor, WA (Kitsap Peninsula, across the Puget sound from Seattle)

Beautiful country and a beautiful base.  My company developed the Command & Control Team Trainer and Defensive Weapons Operator Trainers at TTF Bangor and TTF Kings Bay (TTF - Trident Training Facility).   Spent many hours there during their installation.  Goes back to the time when Silverdale had only one stoplight.   Is the Poplars motel still there?

It always caught me as strange that as you turn off the highway heading toward a submarine base you're heading toward the mountains.  The Olympics are to the west, across the Hood Canal

 hey.. thanks.. wasn't sure where you were.. We have a Bangor Maine, about 25 miles from my office... so I wasnt sure if you were close by or not.. lol..

p38jl

Hey.. dumb question... what is IMF and you say Bangor ? Bangor , where ?

Intermediate Maintenance Facility,  SubBase Bangor,  Bangor, WA (Kitsap Peninsula, across the Puget sound from Seattle)

Beautiful country and a beautiful base.  My company developed the Command & Control Team Trainer and Defensive Weapons Operator Trainers at TTF Bangor and TTF Kings Bay (TTF - Trident Training Facility).   Spent many hours there during their installation.  Goes back to the time when Silverdale had only one stoplight.   Is the Poplars motel still there?

It always caught me as strange that as you turn off the highway heading toward a submarine base you're heading toward the mountains.  The Olympics are to the west, across the Hood Canal

   I do agree with Bill Morrison that women have served honorably in naval servive. My own mother is a case in point. During the First World War, she was a clerk/typist in the Navy Department in Washington, D.C. when Franklin D. Roosevelt was Assistant Secretary of the Navy under Josephus Daniels. At that time, the genders were supervised to prevent any impropriety on the job. As a former sailor, who spent months at sea, the number one topic on the minds of my fellow shipmates,  was, if they could have any action once they had liberty in port. When females are allowed to serve onboard ship, there have been cases of sexual misconduct which the Navy has quietly hushed up and swept under the rug. Women serving in subs is even a more ethical and moral problem. When political correctness triumphs over practical common sense, then there will be cause for trouble. I stand by my comments. bbrowniii is right in quoting Edmund Burke.

  Montani semper liberi !     Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                Crackers                       

warshipguy

Crackers,

Sincerely and with all due respect, have you ever served on a submarine?  If so, you would understand that what you are saying is absolutely impossible.  It also insults every man and woman who serves this country honorably.

Well said, Bill.  Thanks.

warshipguy

Manny,

Men do not suffer from ectopic pregnancy, which is virtually non-diagnosable with the medical resources available onboard submarines. Even MD's would have difficulties.  I am not sure just what has changed to cause BUMED to change its opposition, but that was the essential reason for its opposition.

Bill Morrison

But men are susceptible to other life-threatening conditions that cannot be treated with the limited medical facilities aboard a sub and which occur at similar frequencies to ectopic pregnancy.

Ectopic pregnancies occur in about 1% of pregnancies and half of these resolve without treatment. Sorry, using that to justify denying submarine service to women doesn't pass the 'sniff test'...

EDIT: The 'sniff test' specifically referring to the BUMED, not the information that you posted, Bill.

Hey Jake, best of luck to your wife! Don't let the fact that some people can't see beyond their preconceptions to recognize the goals and achievements of others bother you.

Crackers,

Sincerely and with all due respect, have you ever served on a submarine?  If so, you would understand that what you are saying is absolutely impossible.  It also insults every man and woman who serves this country honorably.

This kind of thinking reminds me of the thinking prior to Truman's integration act; thinking that held that African-Americans, Philippino's, and other minorities were only capable of holding menial jobs in the service. That thinking was proven wrong; so is the thinking that woman are only capable of servicing men.

How do you answer the fact that women have served our navy well in every capacity except on submarine service. Are you suggesting that those women who have been Commanding Officers of warships are there only to have sex with the male officers in the Wardroom, or the Chief Petty Officers in the Goat Locker, or even  the crew?  What about the other women in the crew? Is that all they are good for?

The proven answer is a resolute NO!  They have proven themselves to this Senior Chief Petty Officer.  I have known extremely professional Officers, Chiefs, and lower Enlisted Personnel of both genders who serve proudly; similarly, I have also known the slugs of both genders.

Bill Morrison

Shipbuilderjake

Will do Bill ! She's actually in Groton, through Saturday ! Graduation is Friday, we haven't seen each other in over a month. Thank you for your service. I work at IMF here at Bangor, do you work at Groton? If so we might have crossed paths. Last time I was there I was removing the electrical systems inside the USS Hartford's sail. The boat that tried surfacing under an amphib in the straights of Hormuz !

Hey.. dumb question... what is IMF and you say Bangor ? Bangor , where ?

    As a former Navy man, who served aboard the U.S.S. ANTIETAM, as an IC 2/C, when the ship was deployed to the Med and later in naval air training at Pensacola FL, in the late 1950s, I think the whole idea of women serving on subs under close social quarters is totally DUMB. Now, sailors do not have to go ashore on liberty for their afternoon cherry, they can have it on ship !!!!!

  Montani semper liberi !       Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                        Crackers                             

I remember hearing about the plans to convert the early Tridents to SSGN configuration shortly before I retired. I wish that I had had the opportunity to serve aboard one. I'm envious!  Good luck to her!

Bill

Were not entirely sure what boat yet. The Navy has slowed down the orders process due to cutbacks at Millington. Your lucky to get them as far out as 2 months. In most cases it's about 2-3 weeks notice ! The rumor mill at the yard is that USS Maine will go first for the berthing configuration change. Followed by USS Michigan, USS Pennsylvania, and an East Coast boat were not sure. Yes USS Michigan an SSGN will get the package too. This will have women going out on deployments for up to 6-8 months or as short as a boomer patrol. Were thinking that the King's Bay boat will likely be a GN as well. But the Navy changes plans like underwear so who knows in the end.

Actually, I now teach high school history in Hartford.  I retired from the Navy in 1996 from the USS Maine (SSBN 741)(Blue) in Kings Bay, GA.  I also served onboard USS Ethan Allen (SSBN/SSN 608) (She was the first operating boat out of Bangor, WA), USS Michigan (SSBN 727)(Gold), USS Pasadena (SSN 752), USS Albuquerque (SSN 706) and USS Dallas (SSN 700).  My kids were born in Bremerton, and we bounced back and forth between Bangor and Groton.

Like your wife, I earned two Master's degrees while active duty and my first of two Ph.D's. (Not bad for an enlisted man!)  Since retirement, my son enlisted, serving at Whidbey Island in a P-3 squadron.  I live about 16 miles northwest of Groton but go to the SUBASE at least twice a week.

On which boat will she serve?

Bill

Will do Bill ! She's actually in Groton, through Saturday ! Graduation is Friday, we haven't seen each other in over a month. Thank you for your service. I work at IMF here at Bangor, do you work at Groton? If so we might have crossed paths. Last time I was there I was removing the electrical systems inside the USS Hartford's sail. The boat that tried surfacing under an amphib in the straights of Hormuz !

Jake,

Tell your wife from me, a retired Senior Chief Hospital Corpsman (Submarine Service) that I am proud of her accomplishments and I wish her well!

Bill Morrison

Manny,

Men do not suffer from ectopic pregnancy, which is virtually non-diagnosable with the medical resources available onboard submarines. Even MD's would have difficulties.  I am not sure just what has changed to cause BUMED to change its opposition, but that was the essential reason for its opposition.

Bill Morrison

That's just ignorant. I have two life long friends one who is the EDC aboard the USS Nebraska the other who is a nuke MM aboard USS Henry M. Jackson. Both served with her at Naval Nuclear Power Training Command. They both feel that she should be first to acheive this. She left their with a Commedation, a Navy and Marine Corps medal as well a sailor of the quarter 6 times ! Then it was Naval Postgraduate another Commendation, and NAVSEA ship systems award, to top it off she got 2 masters degree's in our short 2 years there. Your right they made the wrong Decision ? Not taking it personal though...

Both of those stories are completely one-sided. The credibility they offer is a complete and utter JOKE ! My wife and I have delayed starting our family due to this Sub patrol and her looming IA (Individual Augmententation) next year to either Iraq or Afghanistan. The 7 Admirals who decided my wive's fate to go on this patrol spoke to 49 Chiefs and 55 Sub qualified Officers from Nuke Power School where my wife was previously an instructor. All the officers and chiefs agreed that if any woman should get to go it should be her ! Those stories only mention Enlisted women who dodge deployments through pregnancy not female officers. The stories don't mention how many men get out of deployments by using drugs. But I will tell you 15-16% annually ! The 9 or so women to go on this patrol are all officers and 6 I believe are recent Naval Academy grads. What do those stories mention about a precentage of them getting out of deployments ? NONE ! Canada and Austrailia already have female submariners why not the US Navy ?

warshipguy

 It was primarily about their safety and health.

Actually, the big deal was never about whether or not they could do the job, nor was it about privacy. It was primarily about their safety and health. A secondary issue dealt with the effects on the wives and husbands of the crew.

In other words, many wive's groups (and mothers of unmarried crewmen) made a point that they did not like the idea of their husbands "shacking up" with women in the cramped quarters. Imagination runs deep  . . . few took stock that there is nowhere onboard that a couple could hide and the bunks are quite small.

When we took women to sea, we had far too many onboard for the available bunks.  To quarter the riders, we used a common practise of placing mattresses on the torpedo skids. That is where we bunked the EB riders, both men and women. And, as I've said before, adults rose to the occassion and acted like adults. There were no problems.

Bill Morrison

This is why women should not be aboard subs.  It's a combat readiness issue.  If a significant number of crew members have to be evacuated for non combat related reasons, readiness suffers and others have to pick up the load.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/04/30/us/36-women-pregnant-aboard-a-navy-ship-that-served-in-gulf.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3912/is_200009/ai_n8908650/pg_4/

All in all I don't see what the big deal is...if a women understands the potential risks, both in the environment and health, then I don't see what should preclude her from being aboard a sub.

During the Spring of '41 I went on a war-patrol with U-96 as an observor...we took a couple of female medical auxileries with us. This was on a type IX boat but it was still very cramped...I must say that their presence made the patrol more bearable...

Figures . . . It takes 7 Admirals to decide what one Chief could decide quickly . . .

Bill Morrison