Independence at last!

constructor

Manstein's revenge:

constructor:

This will be my first serious ship build after a while that is why I want to do it right. I'm actually building the USS Buchanan and the Revell USS Mintrose to warm me up. Iwill try to post some pictures.

 

Sounds good...just don't bring up the terrible instructions again...

 

Hey Eric, I was not the one who started on the instructions. If you will look at the first page of this post, it was warshipbuilder who mentioned about it, I think he was giving me a warning. Everybody responded to it with Tracy clarifying things, But then it was good to talk about it don't you think?

Manstein's revenge

constructor:

This will be my first serious ship build after a while that is why I want to do it right. I'm actually building the USS Buchanan and the Revell USS Mintrose to warm me up. Iwill try to post some pictures.

 

Sounds good...just don't bring up the terrible instructions again...

Hey Eric, I was not the one who started on the instructions. If you will look at the first page of this post, it was warshipbuilder who mentioned about it, I think he was giving me a warning. Everybody responded to it with Tracy clarifying things, But then it was good to talk about it don't you think?

constructor

This will be my first serious ship build after a while that is why I want to do it right. I'm actually building the USS Buchanan and the Revell USS Mintrose to warm me up. Iwill try to post some pictures.

Constructor:

Best of luck on your build.

Please post photos, if you can when the build is complete.

Thanks Tracy. That's a big help. It's more difficult with ships because unlike armor or planes, we do not have many actual ships to go around. This will be my first serious ship build after a while that is why I want to do it right. I'm actually building the USS Buchanan and the Revell USS Mintrose to warm me up. Iwill try to post some pictures.

Jeeps should be 5-O Ocean Gray as far as I've been able to tell. There are stories of sailors liberating jeeps from Army troops and re-painting them gray to hide their origin, but of course these stories never delve into the precise color.  We do know that the Navy was issuing Jeeps and tractors to carriers based on this document I posted, and since the Navy coordinated camouflage between aircraft and aircraft carriers (i.e. the paint on the aircraft matched the carrier) it's logical to assume the deck vehicles did as well.

As far as the camouflage, there was some conflicting information; I'm reasonably certain (say 90%) that CVL-22 on her shakedown cruise (with the 5" guns) was in Measure 14, essentially an overall Ocean Gray. She just looks too light to be Measure 21.  However, she was definitely Ms 21 in Pacific service.

Painting the lines is not that difficult if you can cut long strips of tape or have access to something like Aizu brand "micron masking tape" (example). I have a glass food cutting board I bought some years back that I use for cutting tape and PE on that works well for laying out and cutting my own custom-length tape as another method.  Once you have a strip long enough, it's relatively easy to put one end down on the bow, say, and pull it to the stern for a straight line. Then burnish it down so that it's tight and still straight, and cut out every other section of planks between tie-downs with a sharp knife. Peel away, seal the tape with either some clear flat or another coat of the line color you are using, and voila!

Ok, now back to my Independence. I am gathering as much info as I can get for this build. One question is' what color do I paint the jeeps and the tow tractors? Grey or yellow. In your opinion' will it be better to paint the white broken lines instead of using the decals provided? I want to paint them on. Oh, oh, back to the instructions. How accurate is the painting guide? Any suggestions? corrections?

I rather thought it was a good excuse...

that is a lousy excuse. try dealing with cp(cerebal palsey) for almost  52yrs(since birth) then you might have something to complain about .

Comes from all those years on the Eastern front......

Manstein's Revenge, you seem to get rather short tempered, very quickly, with anyone who disagrees with you. That seldom helps to advance or resolve an issue, in my experience. Just my

Tracy White

Manstein's revenge:

Will you hold my hand now?

... they just don't care...  They hear that people aren't happy, but kits still sell. Why should they change?

Manstein's revenge

Will you hold my hand now?

Eww... no.

They do care... they just don't care ENOUGH. They hear that people aren't happy, but kits still sell. Why should they change? If you think that the CVL-22 instructions have issues, you should have seen them BEFORE they sent the proofs to us; the fact that the hull pieces are joined together in step 3 instead of step 8 was because we told them it was a bad order and they changed it. There just wasn't time to do any more due to the schedule they had set in place before sending those instructions to us.

Look, I've admitted fault before on both my part and Dragon's. You can criticize them, that's fine. I'm trying to line up support here so that we get more pressure on them so that they feel more reason to change the process and not dump a while instructions sheet on volunteers with only 36 hour's time to look it over and provide input.

With regards to my hand-holding comment; perhaps over the top, but also based in truth. There is a large element of people who just want to sit down, assemble something, and not have to think or worry about it. That's not an invalid desire. But, at the same time, the instructions are not impossible to use and figure out.

I am completely behind "this is more difficult than I want to do," but at the same time, I think anyone who says that should recognize that  they COULD do i if they wanted to. I have that with a lot of potential projects; I have a Collect-Aire "Two-Gar" that I'm never going to start because it's going to be more of a pain in the butt to build it than I want to take on. But is that my failure, or the models?

Now, let's get back to the original post.

Typical Kool-aid from Tracy...

...you seriously think THEY DON'T KNOW people have problems with their instructions---really??? If they haven't heard the feedback already and read the many reviews on their products they certainly aren't going to be interested in my opinion...apparently they aren't interested in yours either since you have an inside relationship with them and have already given them the feedback on this issue...

I also like how you paint anyone who has an issue w/ their sorry instructions as the "hand-holding" market...that insults a lot of good modelers in this Forum and others who review their stuff...

Too bad you can't be more objective and honest about this, but then again you have a conflict of interest when it comes to being objective with them...so why pretend?

 Will you hold my hand now?

Tracy White

Well, in the past I think the focus has been to get the most amount of information in the fewest sheets of paper. They will typically depict an area only once. If they want to satisfy the hand holding market and have better instructions in general they need to re-think the philosophy; start from the bottom and work up and out, saving the fragile pieces for last, and clearly show how it all goes together. Don't do all the sub-assemblies at the very beginning; have them more in-line and closer to the actual step where they're installed.

I can understand how instructions can be a bear, although some companies do seem to do a lot better than others. For me, the biggest issues I have with Dragon are when the clearly call out the wrong part, they indicate the wrong number of a particular subassembly (for example, according to the FSM review, the Independence instructions call for 8 40-mm (?) assemblies when you actually need 9), or they don't show clearly where a particular part or subassembly is supposed to go. Unfortunately, all of these things seem all to common on Dragon instructions....

But you know what, I'm going to stop clogging up this thread about the Independence with complaints about Dragon instuctions. I'll take my gripes and complaints over to Manny's thread in the 'General Modeling' forum...

Well, in the past I think the focus has been to get the most amount of information in the fewest sheets of paper. They will typically depict an area only once. If they want to satisfy the hand holding market and have better instructions in general they need to re-think the philosophy; start from the bottom and work up and out, saving the fragile pieces for last, and clearly show how it all goes together. Don't do all the sub-assemblies at the very beginning; have them more in-line and closer to the actual step where they're installed.

Manschtein: don't you think it would be better for people to contact Dragon and complain? If people actually wrote them it might be a little more effective than 5% fewer sales out of the gate for no reason they can see, hmmmmm???????

Tracy White

I've been pushing on the instructions a bit; in fact I need to get off my butt and rework the CVL-22 set to give them a better idea.

Instructions can be brutal to do; I know from talking with other smaller manufacturers that it can often be the most frustrating and time-eating part of the whole process. I think Dragon tends to focus on the plastic and the instructions are more of an after-thought, but I haven't worked with them on site to know how big that part of their operations are. I can say that with the CVL-22 instructions we were e-mailed copies of them on a Friday and told they wanted to get them printed the following Monday.. which was our Sunday due to the international date line!

Believe it or not, we managed to get a lot changed in what you see, but it still wasn't enough. A dedicated thread would be most helpful so that I can show them... I can tell them "people love everything but the instructions"but showing posts is better.

 

P.S. for the virtual picket: how are they going to know why you're picketing?

I have noticed an improvement on the instructions in general. The main problem about the instructions I encountered is that the parts are not in the right angle where the builder can really see where parts will be getting together. Sometimes it shows parts to be joined with the surface hidden, With the many parts emerging from new models we really have to have good illustrations. I know its tough be it is needed by the builder. Thanks Tracy.

Tracy White

P.S. for the virtual picket: how are they going to know why you're picketing?

I've been pushing on the instructions a bit; in fact I need to get off my butt and rework the CVL-22 set to give them a better idea.

Instructions can be brutal to do; I know from talking with other smaller manufacturers that it can often be the most frustrating and time-eating part of the whole process. I think Dragon tends to focus on the plastic and the instructions are more of an after-thought, but I haven't worked with them on site to know how big that part of their operations are. I can say that with the CVL-22 instructions we were e-mailed copies of them on a Friday and told they wanted to get them printed the following Monday.. which was our Sunday due to the international date line!

Believe it or not, we managed to get a lot changed in what you see, but it still wasn't enough. A dedicated thread would be most helpful so that I can show them... I can tell them "people love everything but the instructions"but showing posts is better.

P.S. for the virtual picket: how are they going to know why you're picketing?

Virtual picket? *laughs*

bbrowniii

Tracy White:

Let me know if you have any questions; I helped develop the kit.

 

Hey Tracy,

I have a question. It is more generic towards Dragon, but seems consistent with comments I've seen about this kit.

Why does Dragon seem to have such a hard time putting together quality instructions?

I think in previous threads I've seen you comment that you didn't have a hand in the instructions, but the design of the molds. However, you have more intimate knowledge of Dragon that I do, do I'm lookin' to you for answers man!!

Tracy White

Let me know if you have any questions; I helped develop the kit.

Hey Tracy,

I have a question. It is more generic towards Dragon, but seems consistent with comments I've seen about this kit.

Why does Dragon seem to have such a hard time putting together quality instructions?

I think in previous threads I've seen you comment that you didn't have a hand in the instructions, but the design of the molds. However, you have more intimate knowledge of Dragon that I do, do I'm lookin' to you for answers man!!

I was following two nice build logs,on Steelnavy a man named Ray Bean was building one,and on modelshipwrights a poster named Dangeroo was blogging one,but both builds seemed to have stalled for the time being.

Manstein's revenge

Honestly, why can't Dragon do a better job with their instructions?  I mean, I buy tons of stuff from them so I have no "dog in the race" in terms of them vs Trump, Tamiya, etc...but c'mon---EVERY review you read that is even remotely impartial mentions their instructions as a con...a REALLY BIG CON...

No kidding, huh? I was excited to see the review of this kit in FSM this month. And I was really pleased to read about the quality of the moldings and the level of detail. This is one ship kit that I really want. However, the critiques of the instructions gives me pause.

Honestly, why can't Dragon do a better job with their instructions?  I mean, I buy tons of stuff from them so I have no "dog in the race" in terms of them vs Trump, Tamiya, etc...but c'mon---EVERY review you read that is even remotely impartial mentions their instructions as a con...a REALLY BIG CON...

I mean, do they first write them in Chinese then run 'em through a $15 program that translates them into English???  What gives? 

Are they just really stupid in this one area?  Do they take their model-buying customers for granted? The world wonders... 

I think I'll start a whole thread just on this topic...

Eh, I didn't think Pete's procedure was really necessary on mine. What I did was hold all three pieces (main deck, left hangar bulkhead piece, right hangar bulkhead piece) loosely together and then put them in place, and THEN start gluing. You didn't have to fit them exactly until you started gluing, and I just started with gluing the main deck as it holds the other pieces more or less in place.

Let me know if you have any questions; I helped develop the kit.

Try clearing your browser's cache, or just go to the link on the White Ensign Models site.

If it still works, you might be able to go from here -

http://members.boardhost.com/Warship/msg/1306283403.html

warshipbuilder

Oh boy!

I hope you are really ready for some serious head-scratching!

As usual with Dragon kits,  the instructions are a little ambiguous - You're gonna need this real bad -

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.212602668757747.58662.133782763306405

Thanks warshipbuilder search cannot find this site. Any other way to open it?

Thanks,

constructor

Oh boy!

I hope you are really ready for some serious head-scratching!

As usual with Dragon kits,  the instructions are a little ambiguous - You're gonna need this real bad -

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.212602668757747.58662.133782763306405