ratlines

jtilley

As for the lack of the big opening in the spardeck on the 1/192 kit - we need to remember that this was Revell's very first serious effort at a sailing ship, and almost the the industry's first effort at a plastic one.  (The Marx Sea Witch was on the market, but it had metal decks.)  It didn't take the Revell designers long to make improvements.  The old Revell Victory, dating from 1959, has the requisite opening, and a full-length deck under it.  For 1956 the little Constitution is a remarkable kit - and can easily stand comparison with lots of the kits that several companies (including Revell) released much later.

Opening up the main hatch is actually pretty easy on the Revell kit.  In the attached photo the 1/196 (or 192?) Revell kit is on the right and the 1/150(?) "quick-build" kit is to the left.   It's a bit hard to see in the attached photo, but I cut the hatch open and then built a partial gun deck below it to block the view to the keel.  I've got some Model Expo grating that I may end up using even though it's not quite in scale. 

This kit has been languishing on my bench for quite some time now.  I actually am basing it on my collected documentation of the restored ship just prior to the current restoration back to the 1812 configuration, hence the gray painted deck.  Being a glutton for punishment, I also intend to separately rig the shrouds and ratlines.  The plan is to glue the ratlines to the shrouds and then touch up the glue with paint to represent knots.  I've done something similar on this kit before where I simulate blocks with drops of white glue painted black.

Mark

The Constitution has three full-length decks.  They are, starting from the top, the spardeck, gundeck (or maindeck; I've seen it referred to both ways in reputable sources) and berth deck.  Below the berth deck is the orlop deck, which actually takes the form of two platforms fore and aft (with a big gap between them that forms part of the hold).  The commanding officer's accommodations are on the gundeck (as they're rendered in the big Revell kit), with the transom windows and quarter galleries looking in on them.  The other officers' quarters are in the after part of the berth deck.  (The tiny airports on all the Revell kits lead into the officers' quarters.) 

For a long time the modern crew of the restored Constitution actually lived on board - with their bunks on the berthdeck (which in those days was closed to tourists).  Quite a few years ago, long before any of the restorations that turned her into a serious reconstruction, I took a tour of the Constitution in which the enlisted man/guide solemnly informed the visitors that the "birthdeck" was so named because, when the ship was in port, the sailors' wives frequently gave birth on it.  Gawd help us.

As for the lack of the big opening in the spardeck on the 1/192 kit - we need to remember that this was Revell's very first serious effort at a sailing ship, and almost the the industry's first effort at a plastic one.  (The Marx Sea Witch was on the market, but it had metal decks.)  It didn't take the Revell designers long to make improvements.  The old Revell Victory, dating from 1959, has the requisite opening, and a full-length deck under it.  For 1956 the little Constitution is a remarkable kit - and can easily stand comparison with lots of the kits that several companies (including Revell) released much later.

Yes, that is correct.  Gun decks were used for berthing, with officer quarters at the after end, the rank of the officers increasing with each successive deck.

However, in frigates, USS Constitution as an example ,the upper most deck you see on the model is not the main deck.  It is a spar deck.  The main deck on frigates/6th rates/"one deckers" is the gundeck as well. 

To create cabin spaces for officers, and to have a quarter deck to command from. a spar deck was built aft of the mizzen mast.  To create cabins for the masters's mates forward, and to have a working area over all the ground tackle, another spar deck was built.  It did take long to join those two decks with catwalks along the sides at the top of the bulwarks.

In American Frigate design, that scheme was carried out far further than in other navies.  Which allowed for quite a lot of deck space for carronades, which very much enhanced the military capacity of the ship.  It increased the amount of berthing space as well.

And, I realize I'm quibbling over ancient naval semantics, too.  It's just too much education in hull "girders" and why and where wales are set on a ship.

CapnMac82

We are getting a mix of terms here.  The "gun" deck on Constitution is the main deck.  The deck about that, the one carrying carronades is a spar deck, if a nearly complete one.  And also a rather heavily-built deck, too.

This is in contrast to a "razee" where a multi-deck ship is cut down (or built up) to have a upper structural deck, and a gundeck below it.

This is a subtle distinction in warship design, but an important one.

 

Well the 1/192 scale Constitution's gun deck only consists of a wide ledge to mount the guns. But there is actually enough room to add sheet styrene ledges for placing structural members if one wishes to scratchbuild the rest of the gun deck.  BTW would the structural ribs on the bulkhead be visible below decks or would they have been covered over with planking?

But also I do seem to remember that the Gun deck was also the berthing area for the enlisted personel. Junior officers were berthed in another section and like the enlisted personel also slept in Hammocks only the senior officers (Captain ,First Mate Second Mate) had seperate cabins and slept in beds.

We are getting a mix of terms here.  The "gun" deck on Constitution is the main deck.  The deck about that, the one carrying carronades is a spar deck, if a nearly complete one.  And also a rather heavily-built deck, too.

This is in contrast to a "razee" where a multi-deck ship is cut down (or built up) to have a upper structural deck, and a gundeck below it.

This is a subtle distinction in warship design, but an important one.

I'm suprised that the 1/196 scale Constitution didn't have the grating open as the gun deck would have been visible no matter what the scale through the open wells.

I just got one of the "mid-sized" Revell Connies. The box top lists it as a 22" hull and it has no vacuform sails.

Regardless, unlike the 1/120th? Monogram/Imai or smaller 1/196th Revell kits, this "mid-sized" Revell has the grate in the main deck molded open to allow you to see down into what is actually a portion of the gun-deck; this visible portion here has about 4 gun ports molded open on each side of the hull and the rest are molded closed. Saves on detailing guns, although I would think a ship at anchor would be open for ventilation unless it was nastier weather.

Hello Prof. Tilley,

I think that the 1970's Revell Constitution was pretty close to 1/144, and really wasn't a bad kit, just smaller and simpler. 

As for ratlines; until the past decade or so, I worked in miniatures, usually 1/384 scale or thereabouts. One of the leading miniaturists is Lloyd McCaffery. His solution for small ratlines and shrouds was a custom built jig. I did my own take on it, and it is good for scales down to 1/250.

The wooden yardstick segments have matching holes that allows their distances to be adjusted.

The carriage bolts are 1/4"-20. I once had access to finer pitch bolts that could be used for smaller scales, but my eyes are not quite what they used to be. Once fine line is wrapped around the bolts (I use nylon), a pattern is slid into place.

The shrouds can be made any way you choose. For smaller models, I use brass wire. This would be painted with thinned white glue, sometimes CA. The finished ratline set would then be painted the appropriate colors. After that, the way they are attached is up to you. This is the set that went on my 1/200 Imai Santa Maria, prior to the deadeyes being detailed (and they were the wrong shape; a fact I knew when I punched them).

Hope this helps, 

Cheers,

Robert

I don't remember the exact scale of the middle sized kit but it was advertised as being 24" in length.  Also, the 1/196 scale small kit was reissued in the 1970's with a different set of sails; instead of being fully spread, these were furled.  The wall plaque was based on the 1/196 kit, not the 1/96 kit.

The middle sized kit did not include a gundeck.  In fact, the port lids were molded shut, except for a few guns amidships, which were mounted on platforms molded to the hull sides.  I really do not believe that it was based on either 1/96 or 1/196 scale kits but was a different kit entirely.

I hope this helps!

Bill Morrison

Mikeym is right, of course.  Revell has made three Constitutions.  The third one is a smaller, simplified version of the big 1/96 one, sold as a "Quick Build" kit back in the seventies when Revell was looking desperately for solutions to its financial woes.

Actually there was a fourth one.  Earlly in its existence Revell bought the rights to a series of tiny plastic sailing ship kits that originated with a company called Gowland and Gowland.  They were only a few inches long, and were sold in two forms:  with and without a small plastic bottle.  One of the kits in that line was the Constitution.

Oh - and if you want to be really comprehensive, there was a "Constitution with Wall Plaque."  This one was based on the 1/96 kit again, but was much smaller and only a bit more than half of the hull was included.  The kit came with a "wall plaque" decorated with a reproduction of an antique map.

I think that's all of them - not counting the various reissues (with or without sails, different box art, etc.).

I never use the pre-formed shroud-ratline assemblies, nor use a jig to make them. I prefer to tie the ratlines in place after the shrouds are up and properly tensioned to be even.  Takes longer, but the appearance is far superior to preformed ones.

I do cheat to the extent that I tie to each shroud with an overhand knot, but that affects the appearance to an almost unnoticable degree.

The first set will take awhile, but it is like knitting or something like that.  Once your fingers come up to speed you'll find they do it automatically, and your mind wanders while the fingers do the work.

I use two home-made tools for rigging, and they help for ratline work.  I make them from very large needles like chrochet needles.  I make a fork from one by cutting or grinding off the half away from the shaft.  The other becomes a hook, by grinding away a portion of one side.  The fork is for pushing thread ends away from you, through holes or crowded areas, the hook is to snag a thread and pull it back towards you.

jtilley

If you do a search on the word "ratlines" in this Forum, you'll come up with plenty of posts - maybe more than you want to read - about the various approaches to the problem. 

You didn't mention which Revell Constituion you've got.  The company has made two; one on about 1/192 scale (about 18 inches long), the other on 1/96 (three feet long).  If you've got the big one, and you have some experience with rigging, I'd recommend rigging the ratlines "to scale" (i.e., fastening them to the shrouds with clove hitches).  If you're talking about the smaller kit, you'll probably be happier with the old "needle through the shroud" method.

Good luck.

John I thought Revell made 3 Constitutions? Didn't you meantion before about a Constitution that was scaled between the 1/96 scale Constitution and the 1/192 scale Constitution?

Now that we know we're talking about the smaller of the two Revell kits, I can comment a little more intelligently.

It was the very first of Revell's sailing ship line (not counting the tiny ex-Gowland kits that had been sold in Revell boxes for a couple of years), in 1956.  At that time it represented the state of the art - and it still looks pretty good by comparison with many, more recent sailing ship kits.

It originally came with a set of "preformed ratlines" (actually shrouds and ratlines) made of plastic-coated thread.  The modeler was supposed to lay this net-like object over an included pattern, cut the threads to length, and glue them to the deadeyes and the mastheads.  I've never thought that was a good idea, though it came to be the universal standard in Revell's other sailing ship kits - and Airfix's as well.

At some later date (I'm not sure exactly when, but Dr. Thomas Graham's book on Revell gives 1977 as the first issue of the kit without the original "ratlines"), the plastic-coated thread ones got replaced by injection-molded styrene ones.  These, to my eye, looked utterly awful - worse than the originals.  They were grossly oversized, and didn't really look at all like rope.  So far as I know, all the Revell sailing ship kits except the big, 3-foot ones (the Constitution, Cutty Sark, Kearsarge, and their modified siblings) were issued with the injection-molded parts.

I'm inclined to agree with Bondoman.  1/192 is an awfully small scale for rigging ratlines.  (I've never done it on a scale smaller than 1/128 - which was plenty small enough.)  To scale, the ratlines would be about 1/16" apart and (at the most) about .0025" in diameter.  If I were building that model I think I'd try to do a good, neat job of installing the shrouds, and leave off the ratlines altogether. 

That's just my 2 cents worth, though.  To each his own.  Good luck.

Yep...If you have the concentration and inner peace you can easily do the ratlines over a long period of time, but your effort will be rewarded. 

If 'twer me I'd just rig the shrouds.

It doesn't say what the scale is but It's the smaller one.  It has a 56 copyright but I think it's the 61 reissue, for a 50 year old kit it had everything that originally came with it except the glue and the other half of the ratlines.  I bought this kit because I think old models should be done and because this one didn't have sailsonly the rigging and ratlines.  I want to put it next to my other recent issue Constitution with the sails just to show comparision

The vinyl-covered thread deals in the larger-scale kit are not that great a loss.

But, I feel that way about the cast styrene versions in the smaller kit, too.

A shroud (the supporting lateral & aft stay for a mast, upon which ratlines are hung) is a pretty simple bit of rigging.

You need a line, about the size of the larger rigging line in the kit (gets much trickier if you want rivet-counter precise).  You want enough length to go from the forward starboard deadeye for the mast being supported, up around the top of the mast and down to the next after starboard deadeye.

Take the middle of that bit of line.  Hold a loop about 3-4 times the diameter of the top of the mast; lash that loop together with some fine thread. 

Place that loop over the mast, and feed the ends down to the deadeyes.  Then, tie those off (your comfort level will dictate how you do that).

Repeat to port, then alternate starboard and port, moving aft until all deadeyes are made up.

The actual ratlines are bit more work, with a number of ways of achieving them.

Is this the big kit (1/96)?

To clarify, each is a set of both shrouds and stays (vertical) and ratlines (horizontal footropes).

Yes, there's a bunch of ways to do it. There a system that Heller used that had a loom which was threaded and then glued. Or you can photo copy the ones you have, pin the copy down under a layer of waxed paper, and try setting up a jig with a bunch of pins, weaving it all together and gluing it together.There's a number of ways to build them in place, starting by rigging the shrouds and then installing the footropes. These can be tied, glued or threaded through the stay with a needle. Those are the best looking.

I've always had a bad enough time with the ones provided that I have cheated and just installed the shrouds, which I find acceptable.

If you do a search on the word "ratlines" in this Forum, you'll come up with plenty of posts - maybe more than you want to read - about the various approaches to the problem. 

You didn't mention which Revell Constituion you've got.  The company has made two; one on about 1/192 scale (about 18 inches long), the other on 1/96 (three feet long).  If you've got the big one, and you have some experience with rigging, I'd recommend rigging the ratlines "to scale" (i.e., fastening them to the shrouds with clove hitches).  If you're talking about the smaller kit, you'll probably be happier with the old "needle through the shroud" method.

Good luck.