Looking for USS South Carolina BB 26 7 inch guns

sumter III

Need some help, looking to replace the resin 7 inch gun barrels with brass.  I think the 1/350 Master Models USN 3in/50 (7.62 cm) barrels will work for the 3 inch guns. 

Any idea which caliber is needed for the 7 inch and who has them?

Not  sure of your data.  Both NAVSOURCE & Friedman's US Battleships list the main armanent of the South Carolina-class (BB-26) as eight x12-inch/45 cal rifles.  The secondary guns are twenty-two x 3-inch/50 cal.   

I think they may have been installed when the 3 inch guns were removed.  A total of 8- 7 inch guns are listed which would account for the top mounted guns.  This is one source but I have seen this in other places as well.

from global security

"Limited in displacement by Congressional mandate, USS South Carolina and her sister, USS Michigan, were essentially the same size as the preceding Connecticut class of what came to be called "pre-dreadnoughts". They also featured the same reciprocating steam engines and 18-knot speed. However, with a main battery of eight 12-inch guns instead of four 12-inch, eight 8-inch and a dozen 7-inch, their firepower was far more effective at any but "point-blank" range."

If the data is incorrect please let me know.

Thanks

SC and Michigan did not have 7 inchers, their secondary guns were 3 inchers

http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/battleships/us_dr.htm#sc-cl

As part of the shift to all-big-gun armament, the 7" secondary battery of the previous class was eliminated. The 3" battery mounted in previous classes was retained, but was housed in a main-deck casemate - a much higher, drier and more useful location than the second-deck casemate of the previous (and following) classes.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/bb-26.htm

The South Carolinas' secondary gun battery, twenty-two 3-inch guns, was intended only for self-defense against torpedo attack by light craft. However, with the rapid contemporary growth of the destroyer, these guns were soon seen to be inadequate, and the anti-torpedo batteries of subsequent U.S. battleships were of five-inch caliber.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_7-45_mk2.htm

Ship Class Used On  Connecticut (B-18) and Mississippi (B-23) Classes

Thanks I hope your right. 

Notice the problem I have with Navsource, in this picture you can see two 3 pound guns mounted on spider leg mounts.  I have another picture where I can see two more mounted next to the aft two 3/50's.  Navsource never says there were that many 3 pound guns on board.

 http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu218/sumterIII/bb273POUNDGUNS.jpg

Thanks ddp That cleared up the 7 inch issue and thanks for the source material!

sumter III

Thanks I hope your right. 

Notice the problem I have with Navsource, in this picture you can see two 3 pound guns mounted on spider leg mounts.  I have another picture where I can see two more mounted next to the aft two 3/50's.  Navsource never says there were that many 3 pound guns on board.

 http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu218/sumterIII/bb273POUNDGUNS.jpg

Thanks ddp That cleared up the 7 inch issue and thanks for the source material!

The full caption on that photo in Friedman states, " The Michigan, as modified early in World War One, is shown in 1916 or 1917.  Note the large range-finders atop her two superfiring turrets and the smaller one atop her enlarged conning tower.  The canvas above it protects a navigating bridge near the steering platform inside her cage mast.   The original mast-base chart house has been removed.   The significance of the two-tone paint job is unknown.  (O.W.Waterman)"

Were you looking at the range-finder on the turrets and seen a larger gun?

Subsequent research through my WWI Janes reprint confirms the weapon mix, although it does state that some quick firing 3-inch AA guns were added during her WWI service.

sumter III

you can see two 3 pound guns mounted on spider leg mounts.

Not sure those are 47mm 3pounders. 

Not finding a photo, but the early Marks of 3"/50 had both solid spindle, and "legged" mounts.

Unless I'm remembering wrong--which is possible,

Hey CapnMac

You maybe right, take a look at these pictures, these look more like the 47mm guns to me.

This is a close up of the picture I posted before.

 http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu218/sumterIII/3pdgunsidemount.jpg

Now this undated but most likely pre 1916.

http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu218/sumterIII/3pdgunmount.jpg

The first picture came from history.navy 

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-m/bb27.htm

Dunno. 

Using unaided Mk I Mod 0 eyeballs, the first close-up sure does look similar in size to the casemated rifle below.

Which, to my eye looks far too much like a 5"/51, with a 3"/50 mounted above it.  Cannot substantiate that' pure impression, only.

Refer back to Photo NH 46283 in the Navy History link--that's a pretty a picture of a 3 pounder as I can remember  (just how much the Ocean cares for the vanities of mere Man is visible in the twisted remains of the foremast).

Did get a laugh out of NH 73774, where the ship's band is "rousing" the crew while coaling in whites.  Bunkering coal, I'm told, was one of the most awful tasks a person could experience shipboard.  More so than even sending a volunteer into the sanitary tank after a dosimeter. 

But, those would be hearsay, and sore influenced by where the sun was in relation to the yardarm when the tales were told, and just how far off in the distance the teller's eyes were focused.

You know I thought the same on that forward mount, but going by the "plan set" and narrative source material it was called out as 3/50’s.

5/51 were not supposed to be on her at all.  They were installed on later ships according to Navweapons. “Battleship classes:  Florida (B-30), Wyoming (B-32), New York (B-34), Nevada (B-36), Pennsylvania (B-38), New Mexico (B-40), Tennessee (BB-43) and Colorado (BB-45)”

The 3/50 on a spider mount as seen on Navweapons looks a lot like the guns from the Michigan port side, good MK 1’s there Captn...

These guns, as listed, match up with other sources so take it for what it’s worth.

BB26

8 × 12 in (300 mm)/45 cal guns, 22 × 3 in (76 mm) guns, 2 × 3 pounders (47 mm (1.9 in), 2 × 21 in (530 mm) torpedo tubes

BB27

8 × 12 in (300 mm)/45 cal guns , 22 × 3 in (76 mm), 4 × 1 pounders (37 mm (1.5 in), 2 × 21 in (530 mm) torpedo tubes

Now at some point after 1918 two guns were moved to the top of the cranes, I thought they would be two deck guns from the forward part.  Maybe not they could have been added and the side guns removed.  Details are sketchy from 1918 till they were both cut up.

Would love to have some of the missing facts filled in on the story of these two sisters.

Yeah, the gaps and details are as interesting as the whole cloth, some days.

I do have a slight advantage in eyeballing obscure ordinance--had a couple uncles who were long-time BuOrd, they knew all sorts of intricacies about the "why" of a Mk XXI versus a Mk 22; or why there was a Mod 3 and a Mod 5, but no Mod 4.

Subtle things like the "solid pedestal" 20mm mounts were meant for ships in icing conditions; the "bare" tripods for "weight restricted" vessels like subs and high metacentric ships.  Only to be foiled by ships and yards and manufacturers using what was available, not "to spec."  Which is why they took all those war-time photos after yard work and white-circled the bits they had done.

Did he mean 7 pounder when he posted 7 inch?

No had the information wrong, there were no 7 inch guns on SC

Which does not mean that somebody did not write up a plan it install 7" rifles, to have the war end and the Treaties get signed before that plan could be implemented.

A 7' rifle would have been an interesting answer.  It was suggested many times in the Treaty debates as a "solution" for lighter versus heavy Cruisers.  Except that the 6" & 8" rifles in use were in use.  To include all the ammunition, powder charges, ballistic caps for shells, etc.  In the post-war economic slump, and then the Depression afterwards, that's a lot of "paid for"/"on hand" materiel to give up.

Also, that 7" rifle was only better than the potential "other guy's" 6" weapons, and still less than their 8" weapons.  With the ordinance technology of the twenties, you'd probably need 10-12 7" rifles to slug it out with 8-9 8" rifles, which means you'd have a rather large 'medium cruiser'--no great gain.

If you do not have cruisers mounting 7" rifles, makes little sense to mount them on battleships (or any other vessel). 

Much of this same debate resurfaced in the 70's for the 8"/55 Mk 71 weapon system.  Even sharing a bunch of commonality with the Mk 15 guns, all it gained was two miles' range (if with a 250# projectile vice the 70# 5"54).