Daydreaming: New 1/96 sailing ships

Strega or the Preussen would definitely be on my list, as well as Pride of Baltimore.  They should do the last if only because its a topsail schooner.  Or, they could do it's Chasseur namesake, the only American vessel that sailed up the Thames during the war of 1812, to post a notice on the Lloyds of London doors!

I was thinking along those same lines this weekend.

I just received my little Pyro Constellation & was wondering why no one ever produced a larger kit of it.  Seems like having an authentic sailing warship (& the last sailing ship built for the U.S. Navy, I believe) still around would give them enough 'on hand' reference to be able to do a nice job on it. I don't think it would have to be a 1/96 - a smaller scale (but larger than the little Pyro) would be welcomed too.

But, then again, with all the popularity of the series and the movie, a HMS Surprise would seem to be a logical choice also, (sales wise a probable better choice than the Constellation).

And speaking of one of His Majesty's Ships - I for one would absolutely LOVE to have a HMS Guerriere in 1/96 to go with my Constitution.

I could think of a couple more, but those three are the most glaringly obvious for me.

Adrian

It (almost) surpised me that there was never a small-scale HMS Surprise (I'm thinking between 1/150-1/200) from someone like Revell to tie in with the film/books. Something similar to the small-scale Revell Constitution/United States kits, which are quite simple for a beginner to assemble. I suppose the companys have done their research though and found it was not worth it.

What surprises me even more is why no one has bothered providing basic hull shapes in vacform- just like all those model aircraft manufacturers that are mainly defunct now (replaced by resin/ short run injection). A kit of parts which included the hull halves, decks and maybe some superstructure detail would be interesting way of providing for these specialist interests. Bracing might be an issue, but wouldn't be insurmountable. Towards the end of their popularity, surface detail on vacforms used to be quite nice- I'm sure wales and planking could be done quite crisply.

ah well, one can dream.

Will

As its the 200th anniversary of the war of 1812 next year,  can we have a USS Chesapeake and HMS Shannon in 1/96 please !.

That way both sides will be happy [ ish ].

I agree most emphatically with this thread and have been lobbying doggedly over the years to the major western manufacturers such as Airfix and Revell for new sailing ship kits.  I have repeatedly recommended scales  of 1/196 or 1/100, and 1/144 or 1/150.  Revell of Germany has responded with new kits but Airfix seems resistant.  I even made this recommendation to Lindberg as a way of establishing credibility for that company, but they weren't interested.

I strongly advocate consumer activism . . . let the manufacturers know what you want by constantly reminding them by letters, email, and phone calls. Each has a website that lists contact information.  We have got to make them aware that there is indeed a market for these products!

That said, I would like to see a 1/96 scale Sovereign of the Seas (Royal Sovereign), HMS Agamemnon, HMS Vanguard, HMS Diana, HMS Surprise, HMS Shannon, USS Chesapeake, Bucentaure, and L'Ocean.

Bill Morrison

I'm not sure it's really just ignorance. I think they know very well what people ask for- it's their business to do so. Most of the big shows I've been to recently have had an airfix 'guy' at their stand. I casually chatted to one chap about their new 1/350 Royal Navy releases recently, half jokingly suggesting whether they'd follow them up with HMS Warrior or something like that, to which the chap replied that as a modeller, he'd personally love to do something like that, so long as they could climb all over any real ship (rules out most historic ships then..) but their 'men' were pretty adamant that you just couldn't market something like that to the audience Airfix were chasing nowadays. I got the distinct impression the company had looked in to these suggestions at least semi-seriously in the past and had simply concluded that the effort would not be rewarded in the market place.

I bet I was the only chap that day who mentioned ships to the bloke, yet alone sailing ships. Everyone else was raving over the new aircraft releases. Surprisingly little interest in the modern Royal Navy kits either, which is a shame because they are quite nice in a simple 'build over a weekend' kind of way.

Will 

The other thing I forgot to mention. Airfix has some super historic ships in it's range. Most of them have not been re-released for years (decades in some cases). I remember well picking up an airfix HMS Prince kit for next to nothing in my hobby shop when it was last offered in the late 90s- the kit had sat there for several months, steadily being discounted to no avail.

Once again, I think Airfix must have noted how poorly their historic sailing ships (Victory/ Cutty sark excluded) seem to sell when they do re-pop them and this is inevitably going to influence their decision to invest a fortune in something new. 

I like the idea of a topsail schooner, or brig, or something like that.  All the decent sailing models are full ship rigged, a nice two-master would be nice.  How about a plastic kit of the Newsboy?  There was a fine MS kit of that in wood, but no plastic kits I know of, at least in larger scale.

In terms of daydreaming, I'd like to see some of the 1:600 kits come back.  Heller and Airfix did some nice ones.  Then, if Tom's or someone like that did PE standing rigging for it, they could be made into nice models (or else the kits should include the PE.  I'd pay a reasonable amount for a decent 1:600 SOL or Frigate with PE shrouds and ratlines.  How about a re-issue of the 600th Victory with PE?

Billyboy,

I have addressed your issues many times to Airfix.  My question concerns just how many models of HMS Victory, or Prince, or HMAV Bounty is one expected to build?  They are not going to sell if they keep offering the same products repeatedly.  I already have each of their sailing ships except for Bounty. So, when they rerelease them, am I seriously expected to buy more? Of course not.  They need new products!  I heard many of the same arguments against manufacturing modern ships beyond Bismarck Yamato and Missouri throuout the 1960's, 70's, and 80's; look at the successes of Trumpeter and Dragon in the 90's and 21st century!

Revell has offered several new sailing ships to high review and good sales. They are releasing a much better Wasa than Airfix's later this year that will probably do well.  To see just how well new sailing ships will do, one just has to witness the explosion of wooden sailing ships offered worldwide, many of which are junk!  They continue to sell at exhorbitant prices. On a lesser plane, the paper card ship modeling industry keps expanding; Model Shipyard just released their third 1/96 scale British Frigate, HMS Mercury. It joins HMS Enterprize and HMS Cleopatra, as well as the ships-of-the-line HMS Bellona and Victory. There are also two Spanish frigates and one French in that line, all at very reasonable prices and incredible detail!

Imagine the potential monetary and publicity success a given company would see if it released a 1/96 scale HMS Shannon in injection-molded styrene to today's manufacturing standards!  It would be a breath of fresh air.

As the Bible says, "There are none so blind as they who will not see."  I believe that companies like Airfix choose not to see.

Bill

I think it's wonderful if new sailing ship models be issued, but all of you are living in a daydreamer's world. It all boils down to money. If the income is not there, then no new plastic models will be issued. It's that simple. In the meantime, those of you will have to do scratch modeling, or wooden model kits if you wish to expand your modeling horizons.

Montani semper liberi !  Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                         Crackers       

Crackers,

Income cannot be there if there is no investment!  As I have said repeatedly, there is a huge market for sailing ship models; all one has to do is look at the success of the wooden plank-on-bulkhead world and the paper-card manufacturers to see proof!  Those industries are thriving, even in this economy.  And, most of the HECEPOB companies do not even create high quality or accurate  products!

But, the plastic manufacturers continue to keep their heads buried in the sand.  They do not see the potential for the market because they do not desire to see it.  It was the same when ship modelers were ignored in the 1970's and 1980's when armor and aircraft benefitted from newer molding and production technologies.  Manufacturers claimed that there was no market for ship modeling. Enter Trumpeter and Dragon!

Hobbyists will not buy anymore HMAV Bounty kits, or HMS Victory kits, or USS Constitution kits because they have already bought them.  Yet, the manufacturers continue releasing the same tired old products and, when nobody buys them, claim there is no market.  It is a self-fulfilling prophecy!

Imagine if the fashion world designed only the same dull gray shirts, with few variations, year after year (ad infinitum).  A few far-sighted individuals begin writing that they want greater variety in shirt selections, but the industry tells them that, if they want other products, they should make them themselves.   A few people who had the skills and the time to "scratch build" their own clothing would look good, but that does not begin to describe the average person, just as it does not begin to describe the average model builder.  Sales would falter and the industry would die. The same is happening to the sailing ship plastic modeling industry.

I have seen and appreciate your work with scratch building, but it is simply beyond the skills of most modelers.  I am trying it myself but the cost in terms of money, time, and planning is overwhelming. I would rather have kits.

Bill

P.S. I have sent this thread to Airfix, Revell, and Lindberg in yet another vain attempt to change the industry.

Smaller ships in 1/96--Baltimore Clipper II; Bluenose II; etc.--would seem to be the best of both worlds, simpler, approachable, and larger-scaled.

I'm surprised (other than the already well-trodden model business decisions) that there are not more kits of the museum ships out there.  Like Star of India and the like.  Or the one that should be a huge cottage industry kit:  SS Ellisa ( Elissa(ship) )  At 141 x 28' she'd make a nice 17 x 3.5" hull with an elegant barque rig.

Would be interesting to have some cottage industry kits for accessory vessels, like lighters and hoys; a sidewheel tug would pair with Cutty Sark.  The lines and appearances of all these are available, some in public domain.  Oh well.

Actually, Revell of Germany seems to be doing just that . . . every new release seems to be of a museum ship.  Look at their past . . . HMS Victory, USS Constitution, Cutty Sark, Charles Morgan.  Although the kits HMAV Bounty, Mayflower, and Golden Hind came before the reconstructions, those ships are now represented as reconstructions.  The Batavia was based on a reconstructed museum ship, and the Viking Ship was based on an intact one found in Europe.  Look at the Dom Fernando e Gloria (although this kit originated in Russia with Occidental).  Finally, their new release of Wasa later this year will continue this trend.  One can only hope that they will continue it with the two British frigates maintained as museums, and the French one building as well as the Zeven Provencien building in Holland.

Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but I really wish other manufacturers would join in. Also, these kits are small; I would like a few more 1/96 scale ships.

That said, I decided to try Crackers' advice.  I downloaded the plans for the 1/96 scale Model Shipyard British frigate HMS Cleopatra.  I started using the templates for the paper model to cut the pieces out of sheet styrene; I have built the keel and the frames so far.  If this works, I may later try the HMS Bellona, HMS Mercury, and HMS Enterprize in the same scale.

Bill

Yes, I'd buy into a 1/96th frigate Constellation, the Essex, a USS Niagara. But... 1/96th is great for detail - bad for display space. To this end I'd opt for 1/196th to match the current Revell pop of the 1955-vintage Constitution.

I balked at buying the re-issues of the U.S.S. Kearsarge and C.S.S. Alabama mainly due to comments about inaccuracies though lack of display space at the time did factor into the decision

Would anyone be interested in more accurate versions of Kearsarge and Alabama as well as a U.S.S. Hartford and U.S.S.  Minnesota?

A War of 1812 Great Lakes warship would be a compact model and an intact version was found a few years ago.

Also, I realize they aren't sailing ships, but 1/96 scale representations of the most important American Civil War ironclad designs would go well with a sailing ship collection.

Absolutely!

Bill

USS Newark C-1. That would be something.

I think a Royal Navy 38 gun frigate would be a great choice-- HMS Guerierre, et al.    In classic Revell form,  it could be sold as a variety of ships.....

(sigh)... still hung up on the idea of a 1/96 Sovereign of the Seas in plastic...

A more accurate CSS Alabama would be nice, it was a very attractive ship I think.  I had thought the Kearsarge was supposed to be very accurate, but a later fit than the one she had fighting the Alabama.  It is inaccurate?  Personally I'd love to see a French or Spanish first-rate like l'Orient, l'Ocean, Santisima Trinidad, Santa Ana or San Jose.  Or how about the French-built Admiral Kornilov? 

I'm shocked, shocked to find that daydreaming is going on here! (with apologies to the character Captain Renault as played by Claude Rains) but I must admit, you guys are my kind of day dreamers.

Miike S.

Arrest the usual suspects?

Daydreaming ?

I think it must be the filler putty fumes.....

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how well the Revell Re-issue Kearsarge and Alabama kits did on the market?

The kits seemed to fly off the shelves as soon as they hit the stores.

With regard to the 1/96th scale Revell Kearsage and Alabama kits

also the 1/96th scale Cutty Sark and Thermopylae/PedroNunes kits.

Hulls are correct for Kearsarge and the Cutty Sark.     However, I think that the same hull mouldings have been used to take shortcuts to make the other model kits, only because their sizes are roughly similar. The real ships lines are on record for anyone to see.

The CSS Alabama kit actually bears little resemblance to the actual ship.  You are correct that the basic hull from the USS Kearsarge was used for the Alabama kit.  The actual Alabama had very raked masts while the kit's are vertical.  The cannons are incorrect as well, and are in  the wrong places.  If you were to examine a deck plan of the real ship and compare it to the kit, you would also find that much of the kit's deck furniture is incorrect and badly placed.

Many of the same issues plague the Thermopylae/Pedro Nunes kits as well. It's a shame; these ships deserve to have detailed models made, as do many other sailing ships.

Bill

I can think of a few that I'd like to see...

The Bluenose and Gertrude L. Thebaud, Baltimore Clippers, the mighty J-Boats of the early America's Cup,

The German Seeadler of WWI fame...

We can only hope.

Ray

Re popping hulls from the wrong ships to try to simulate another by changing some deck details to cheapskate is simply deception. This is taking advantage of buyers trust that what they are getting is a true scale model when they build their kit.  Also re popping an ancient  kit that has been out of circulation for years and printing 'new' on the box is also an insidious practice. I guess that it will stop only if anybody takes the trouble to complain to make an official complaint to a trading standards authority who have the clout to take them to task.

As far as new 1/96th scale kits go, I would like to see the Gloucester Schooner ELSIE,  HMS Warrior and Brunel's Great Britain kitted.   Viability as kits.....That'a another thing!

You are paraphrasing John Tilley when he called such practises fraudulent.  No other business could get away with it.  In the case of the Alabama and the Thermopylae/Pedro Nunes, plans were readily available and should have been used in designing the kits.  I believe Revell cheated its customers when they released these kits.

I find it interesting that, when Lindberg released its 1/72 Japanese submarine, the rage and outcry rang throughout the modeling world about its gross inaccuracies; nobody bats an eye when Revell releases or re-releases the Beagle, Alabama, Thermopylae, etc.

Oh, Great Modeling Gods in the sky, please give us new and accurate sailing ship kits!

Bill

which HMS Bounty Warshipguy? the HMS Bounty from the 1950's Marlon Brando Mutiny on the Bounty or the 1970's Mel Gibson Mutiny on the Bounty? I hear the Bounty from Mel Gibson's Mutiny on the Bounty was more accurate.

warshipguy

Actually, Revell of Germany seems to be doing just that . . . every new release seems to be of a museum ship.  Look at their past . . . HMS Victory, USS Constitution, Cutty Sark, Charles Morgan.  Although the kits HMAV Bounty, Mayflower, and Golden Hind came before the reconstructions, those ships are now represented as reconstructions.  The Batavia was based on a reconstructed museum ship, and the Viking Ship was based on an intact one found in Europe.  Look at the Dom Fernando e Gloria (although this kit originated in Russia with Occidental).  Finally, their new release of Wasa later this year will continue this trend.  One can only hope that they will continue it with the two British frigates maintained as museums, and the French one building as well as the Zeven Provencien building in Holland.

Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but I really wish other manufacturers would join in. Also, these kits are small; I would like a few more 1/96 scale ships.

That said, I decided to try Crackers' advice.  I downloaded the plans for the 1/96 scale Model Shipyard British frigate HMS Cleopatra.  I started using the templates for the paper model to cut the pieces out of sheet styrene; I have built the keel and the frames so far.  If this works, I may later try the HMS Bellona, HMS Mercury, and HMS Enterprize in the same scale.

Bill

What I meant was simply that it seems that Revell has been focusing most of their sailing ship efforts on replicas either currently in existence or soon to be in existence.  A replica of HMAV Bounty exists; Revell has a model kit of that ship.  Charles Morgan (the original) exists, the Revell has a model of that ship.  A replica of Batavia has been built, Revell has a model of that ship.

I applaud their efforts!  Any NEW sailing ship kits are most welcome!

Bill