USS Monitor turret water tank drained

Because apparently a couple of members can't seem to stop from antagonizing each other, the thread is now locked. It's a shame, because the subject is interesting to me an many others, but I've said it before: There is no place on the FSM Forums for this kind of behavior.

Regards, Aaron

Tracy White

 

Cadet Chuck:

What I don't understand is why, after draining the turret, they are going to flood it again and keep it under water for another 15 years.

 

There are salts that have soaked into the metal that need to be pulled out so that it does not disintegrate when finally dried out. This is not a fast process. They're currently working on removing encrustation that would prevent the desalination from happening totally, which would lead to areas corroding and disintegrating.

Spruce; I have no connection with any current restoration project in the US and haven't worked with any foreign projects, so I'm not sure of what they do that might be different. With regards to the archives, which I can speak to, Preservation is a daily and almost constant thing. Since it's not archeological (although some times it should be) there isn't really the need to document each individual sheet and what they did to try and prolong its life. Typically they will be given a collection of, say, 100 2' boxes by a government agency, and they need to go through and remove all the staples (they rust) and enclose a sheet that has tape on it in Mylar (the glue will seep through over time and stick one sheet to another), put torn pieces into mylar, that sort of thing. I went through a box of unprocessed records some years ago at one of the archives and wound up with this after a few short hours.

 

But, let's take a look of what you're driving at. You would like, from what I see, a web interface into their work, so that you can see photos of that they have found and "read all about it as it were," where it was found, "before /after" shots, etc. That requires a lot of technology that a group of archeologists probably don't have and would require spending money on (you would need dedicated servers and people to maintain the database, etc.). I'm personally quite happy with a blog like this.

Mr. White:

Thank you for the description of current records keeping!

You are correct, the Monitor project should be considered same as any archeological study- if understood your quote.

The U.S.S. Monitor is an archeology project regardless of whether those responsible deign to acknowledge it as so or not.

If you have ever read the book by

Lt. Edward M. Miller titled:

"U.S.S. Monitor -The Ship That Launched A Modern Navy"  you would note that considerable effort was expended in taking photographs of the wreck and preparing a wreck drawing along with an evaluation of the condition of the wreck. Such procedure is standard in underwater archeology.

Regarding your comments on the practicality of maintaining a database:

As I have noted , pre-recovery data has actually been published though the publication was prior to the modern internet.

The British used to publish some very good texts on archeological subjects.

One example in my possession is:

Roman Military Equipment

The Accoutrements of War

Proceedings of the Third Roman Military Equipment Research Seminar

Edited by M. Dawson

BAR International Series 336 1987

Also published prior to the modern internet.

My point is this:

Academics have never ceased exchanging information and the U.S. Federal Government does maintain extensive computer database networks.

Claiming cost prevents creating an online database is a very weak and ineffective argument.

You may not know of such a database because, as you say, you are not a member of any current project but that does not mean even a cursory database does not exist.

Tracy White

I wasn't trying to imply that you were in league with Manny, I was just a bit offended by his post and trying to answer two in one.

 

Cadet Chuck

What I don't understand is why, after draining the turret, they are going to flood it again and keep it under water for another 15 years.

There are salts that have soaked into the metal that need to be pulled out so that it does not disintegrate when finally dried out. This is not a fast process. They're currently working on removing encrustation that would prevent the desalination from happening totally, which would lead to areas corroding and disintegrating.

What I don't understand is why, after draining the turret, they are going to flood it again and keep it under water for another 15 years.

Manstein's revenge

...and I think he is hostile towards us older folks as well...

I'm not; I've always felt more comfortable around people older than mine of my own generation and have volunteered with a lot of older folks, helping them use their computers. I still miss Joe and his chili.

Spruce; I have no connection with any current restoration project in the US and haven't worked with any foreign projects, so I'm not sure of what they do that might be different. With regards to the archives, which I can speak to, Preservation is a daily and almost constant thing. Since it's not archeological (although some times it should be) there isn't really the need to document each individual sheet and what they did to try and prolong its life. Typically they will be given a collection of, say, 100 2' boxes by a government agency, and they need to go through and remove all the staples (they rust) and enclose a sheet that has tape on it in Mylar (the glue will seep through over time and stick one sheet to another), put torn pieces into mylar, that sort of thing. I went through a box of unprocessed records some years ago at one of the archives and wound up with this after a few short hours.

I wasn't trying to imply that you were in league with Manny, I was just a bit offended by his post and trying to answer two in one.

But, let's take a look of what you're driving at. You would like, from what I see, a web interface into their work, so that you can see photos of that they have found and "read all about it as it were," where it was found, "before /after" shots, etc. That requires a lot of technology that a group of archeologists probably don't have and would require spending money on (you would need dedicated servers and people to maintain the database, etc.). I'm personally quite happy with a blog like this.

Never realized just how big that turret is until seeing someone inside it.  Are there any plans on putting the two Dahlgrens back into it? 

                                                                                    Pat.

Sprue-ce Goose

Tracy White:

 

 

Sprue-ce Goose:

1- Do the agencies tasked with the preservation and restoration of unique archeological items such as the Huntley and Monitor release updated photos of the objects being restored so that anyone with internet access can follow along with the process?

 

I see four press releases for this year so far on the Hunley site. The Monitor team has a blog. The problem with publicity is balance. Do you expect workers to take time out of their efforts to take pictures and write posts, or do you hire a professional public affairs person to get in their way at more cost, but perhaps with a higher return on investment in the way of donations and other funding?

That's one reason I suggested Manny volunteer. If anyone one really feels passionate about something, try and help. Merely complaining about it does nothing to fix it, and if you see something you don't like the best way to fix it is to become part of the process. Any project like that is hurting for volunteers.

 

Mr. White:

I thank you for the links.

My post has absolutely nothing to do with Manny.

I am trying to evaluate how archeological information is disseminated.

Regarding workers.

I expect workers to do a professional job documenting the preservation process per standard archeological practice which means documenting every aspect of the condition of an object before and during any work performed !

Making information and photos easily available for researchers would be something I consider a professional standard and  the information must be entered into a database as part of the process.

Only by doing this can present and future researchers assess the various aspects of an object in it's historical context as well as glean all available historical period technology insight.

The Huntley and Monitor are excellent examples for anyone, such as myself, who is interested in both Civil War era engineering technology as well as the human aspects of the war.

Further questions:

Is detailed information is freely made available to those with professional credentials? If not, why?

Do you have any information regarding how other nations perform recovery and restoration as compared to the United States?.

Are any budget cuts looming?

 

Tracy White

 

 

Sprue-ce Goose:

1- Do the agencies tasked with the preservation and restoration of unique archeological items such as the Huntley and Monitor release updated photos of the objects being restored so that anyone with internet access can follow along with the process?

 

I see four press releases for this year so far on the Hunley site. The Monitor team has a blog. The problem with publicity is balance. Do you expect workers to take time out of their efforts to take pictures and write posts, or do you hire a professional public affairs person to get in their way at more cost, but perhaps with a higher return on investment in the way of donations and other funding?

That's one reason I suggested Manny volunteer. If anyone one really feels passionate about something, try and help. Merely complaining about it does nothing to fix it, and if you see something you don't like the best way to fix it is to become part of the process. Any project like that is hurting for volunteers.

Mr. White:

I thank you for the links.

My post has absolutely nothing to do with Manny.

I am trying to evaluate how archeological information is disseminated.

Regarding workers.

I expect workers to do a professional job documenting the preservation process per standard archeological practice which means documenting every aspect of the condition of an object before and during any work performed !

Making information and photos easily available for researchers would be something I consider a professional standard and  the information must be entered into a database as part of the process.

Only by doing this can present and future researchers assess the various aspects of an object in it's historical context as well as glean all available historical period technology insight.

The Huntley and Monitor are excellent examples for anyone, such as myself, who is interested in both Civil War era engineering technology as well as the human aspects of the war.

Further questions:

Is detailed information is freely made available to those with professional credentials? If not, why?

Do you have any information regarding how other nations perform recovery and restoration as compared to the United States?.

Are any budget cuts looming?

Manstein's revenge

Why, because I'm so old?  You don't think older people can contribute to history?

What makes you think I either know or care about your age? Research is work, and since you've said on multiple occasions that you're lazy, I just can't see you doing anything at the archives. You want to prove me wrong? I'll be at Archives II the last week in October of this year for an entire week, including all of the extended hours (9-5 Monday, Tuesday, and Saturday, 9-9 Wednesday through Friday).

Sprue-ce Goose

1- Do the agencies tasked with the preservation and restoration of unique archeological items such as the Huntley and Monitor release updated photos of the objects being restored so that anyone with internet access can follow along with the process?

I see four press releases for this year so far on the Hunley site. The Monitor team has a blog. The problem with publicity is balance. Do you expect workers to take time out of their efforts to take pictures and write posts, or do you hire a professional public affairs person to get in their way at more cost, but perhaps with a higher return on investment in the way of donations and other funding?

That's one reason I suggested Manny volunteer. If anyone one really feels passionate about something, try and help. Merely complaining about it does nothing to fix it, and if you see something you don't like the best way to fix it is to become part of the process. Any project like that is hurting for volunteers.

Sprue-ce Goose

 

VanceCrozier:

 

I drained the water tank of my uncle's camper last week, I've got pictures if anyone wants them. Y

 

 

Glad you didn't take photos of your Uncle's water......

Well, I did - but there wasn't enough rust...

VanceCrozier

I drained the water tank of my uncle's camper last week, I've got pictures if anyone wants them. Y

Glad you didn't take photos of your Uncle's water......

I drained the water tank of my uncle's camper last week, I've got pictures if anyone wants them. You'll have to forgive Manny, he gets all riled up when the word "restoration" comes up. He was banned from the Zuiho Restoration Team after being caught adding seams to the barrels of her AA guns...

Tracy White

You work with archivists at the National Archives on a regular basis? I have a hard time believing that.

While I understand the preservationists have work to do and can't keep delicate items constantly on display when they need restoration, I still have further questions:

1- Do the agencies tasked with the preservation and restoration of unique archeological items such as the Huntley and Monitor release updated photos of the objects being restored so that anyone with internet access can follow along with the process?

If not, why not ?

2- How do restoration / preservation groups in other nations provide information and photos of the preservation work they do on archaeological finds?

You work with archivists at the National Archives on a regular basis? I have a hard time believing that.

Tracy White

I work with Archivists at the National Archives on a regular basis and see this "elitist" attitude Manny speaks of ...

OK then, what should they do while restoring these items? Let the public swim in the desalination tanks? Walk through the turret while they have it dry for restoration?

I work with Archivists at the National Archives on a regular basis and see this "elitist" attitude Manny speaks of -- only it's not elitist. They have the responsibility and training the general public lacks and doesn't seem to care about. So yes, they will restrict access, and they will protect an artifact from someone who is more interested in personal gratification than preserving history.I have been scolded and "wrist slapped" by archivists who felt I wasn't being careful enough with the records - I don't get offended; they're just taking their responsibilities seriously.

There was only one Monitor, and only one Hunley. Of course only an elite few are going to have access to it. You can't share those with a country, particularly before they're preserved, without seriously damaging or destroying them.

Cadet Chuck

Actually, I must agree somewhat with Manny.....

Yeah- As Oliver Hardy said many times to Stan Laurel:  "Why don't you do something to help me?!"

Actually, I must agree somewhat with Manny.....

I think you're miss-characterizing them. Why don't you go volunteer to help them?

I am all about what these archeologists do and their preservation work but ever since the Hunley was found I have a bad taste in my mouth about their elitist attitudes and general condascending attitude they have for the general public...IMO, they feel that these finds are theirs and they do us favors by showing us pics of them undergoing restoration...that's my perception...they can all kizz me ars hill...