Liberty ship cargo questions

L'Arsenal makes a nice set of 6x6 trucks.

https://www.whiteensignmodels.com/c/LArsenal/265/2/

Buying from WEM is a little expensive right now because of the $$ :(, but I like those guys.

Whatever you do, please no rows of Shermans across the hatch covers!

Look forward to your build. Might get mine back out.

Get really radical and stick a tugboat across the aft hatches. I kid you not ... I have the photo somewhere from when I did my Liberty ship build. But as bondoman said, WEM makes some awfully nice stuff. I was under the impression all the Skywave/Pitroad stuff was 1/700, my preferred scale.

While WEM service is good, they are not the sole supplier; L'Arsenal even has a US branch!

http://www.larsenal-usa.com/store/

Iron Shipwright offers Shermans, Deuce & Halfs,  Halftracks, Jeeps,  DUKW, etc on their accessory page.    Also railroad rolling stock.  The US shiiped over engines & railcars to supplement/replace the rolling stock which was destroyed. 

http://ironshipwrights.com/accessories.html

Elco Boats, and large wooden crates.

Thanks guys. This is exactly what I was looking for.

Lots of 1/350th WWII aircraft out there...Trumpy makes some pretty good ones at around $10.00 for 10 A/C

Ray

One thing about aircraft as deck cargo - if you do that, you have to remember that they were almost always wrapped up or protected in some way, props were almost always removed, and things like outer wing panels and stabilizers were frequently removed as well, to both reduce the size of the package and because those were vulnerable bits. For instance, these 1/700 P-40s on the aft cargo hatches of a Liberty ship are minus props and stabilizers, and some have extra "canvas covers" over the engines for additional protection:

Another thing about aircraft as deck cargo: were they really something that a Liberty would be carrying?  There are a lot of 1/350 carrier planes, but they would most likely be ferried on carriers.  Others with longer range were just flown to the theaters via ferry routes. I've seen pictures of P-40s, P-38s, P-47s, P-39s and Hudsons on deck.  

Also, to be really accurate, cargos were more or less homogeneous. In other words, you might see all aircraft ( all the same type!) or all tanks, or all trucks, but not all of them mixed together.  Actually the most common deck cargo was a plain wooden mass of something covered with tarps.  Boring!   But accurate.

they were freightered to the uk as most aircraft didn't have the legs to go the distance & you would have to to overhaul the engines after the flight there.

Pictures of Liberty ships show an incredible plethora of things on the deck; while many times it is just big ole' boxes, many times it is not, and in some cases it does seem like it is just a hopeless jumble. Although my Dad served on Victory ships, he said that whether the deck cargo was "neat and tidy" or not depended on what kind of mood the stevedores were in, and not on what the directions from the shipping agent or the military were - if they felt like piling a bunch of jeeps on as deck cargo, and filling up the nooks and crannies with crates of whatnot, that was what happened, and very little anyone could do about it - what counted was emptying out the warehouses and quays and filling up the ships.

About the largest aircraft I can recall seeing as deck cargo (without digging through my reference photos) is a Lockheed Hudson, with outer wing panels and stabilizers removed. I need to find that one with the tugboat jammed across the aft hatches ... I have no idea if the Liberty ship made it across OK or not, but I'm sure there were some stability problems with that load.

Most bombers flew, either via Iceland or across from Brazil.  Many of them were piloted by women.

Actually, many aircraft and large but light objects, like landing craft, went as deck loads on tankers.

A tugboat would be a challenge to load, but it's probably not as heavy as a locomotive, or several tanks. 

It's true that space would be filled with whatever was available, but if the ship was loading at a dock that handled airplanes, it's likely that airplanes was all they had to load.  The same would probably be true on the discharge side.

The one break bulk ship I worked on, they would fill in space between cargo in the holds by throwing in loose tires.  it's amazing how much stuff those old ships could carry, as opposed to a containership, in which every container has a lot of empty space.  Of course many containers are completely empty.

There are some photos of PT-109 aboard the Joseph Stanton on Navsource, I have one additional one posted here.

In the Pacific in particular, many escort carriers spent their entire war career transporting airplanes, something they were ideal for. It was a freighter hull anyways, and could move along at a nice clip.

Many have wondered how the CVE's could function, in photos they've seen with dozens of aircraft stem to stern. That's what they were doing.

I'm going to keep my O'Brien clean, but I think deck cargo makes a nice touch. Be sure to study photos as the cargo is braced, lashed and otherwise covered.

I have seen pictures of P-38's being offloaded in England. The outer wing sections beyond the engines were remoced, of course the props as well and the aircraft were wrapped. Here are pictures of a P-47 and a P-38 that I could find. The P-38 was in Australia, and the P-47 was England. The last is on a carrier, but shows better the condition of the aircraft.

Mike T.

EdGrune

Iron Shipwright offers Shermans, Deuce & Halfs,  Halftracks, Jeeps,  DUKW, etc on their accessory page.    Also railroad rolling stock.  The US shiiped over engines & railcars to supplement/replace the rolling stock which was destroyed. 

http://ironshipwrights.com/accessories.html

This was titled D-Day-06-06-1944-0005

In a related thought, I recall a TV episode, I think it was Navy Log, possibly “Mission to Murmansk” but maybe something else, about “pilfering” guns & ammunition from the cargo to protect the ship from air attack. (Sounds like common sense to me.)

Looks like an Alco switcher. European style buffers on the pilot beam.

With the weight of a loco, I'd guess it would be stowed deep, and on the centerline. 

Nice, empty lightweight boxcars?  Yeah, those would lash over a hatch in a nice batch.

I'd guess the "tug" referred to would be a YTB, a necessary sort of vessel less-suited for an ocean crossing.

One thing on those trucks, especially 6x6s, they would have all the tarps and bows stowed and tied down--to prevent loss as much as to reduce the profile.  I think (just think) I remember a photo of a pair of USMC IHC 6x6 stacked as deck cargo.  If I'm remembering right, they were sans wheels and just canvas blobs lashed to a lot of dunnage.

There is a video out there called Hannibal Victory that shows four locomotives being shipped to the Philippines on the main deck of a Victory ship along the sides of the hatches. In the holds were knocked down cars and the locomotive tenders.

I also have seen an advertisement for ALCO, after the war, showing 2-8-2 locomotives being shipped to France on the main deck. Two on each side of the hatch and three over the hatch on some sort of support structure. I have also seen pictures of Baldwin Locomotive Works deck loading locomotives for Portugal.

Go to the Library of Virginia's US Army Signal Corps/Hampton Roads Port of Embarkation (HRPE) site.    Put in search keywords such as ship,  truck,  cargo, etc.  You will see photos taken at Hampton Roads of Liberty Ships and Victory Ships being loaded.    No warship photos I've found.

http://lva1.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/F/?func=file&file_name=find-b-clas72&local_base=CLAS72\

Many personnel shots,  but some interesting detail photos are included.   Double stacked trucks,  rolling stock.    Check the backgrounds of the pictures.   Found my fathers ship on her return from the Invasion of North Africa situated behind a shot of a doctor & nurses waiting to the wounded to be offloaded

Again, thanks everyone for the info and Ed for the link (some great pics there). Some good advice regarding types of cargo and how it was stowed. I've ordered some trucks, jeeps and DUKW's from Iron Shipwrights. I'm going to hold off a few weeks before I start on her as the wife and I will be going out on a cruise on her in September. I'm hoping to get lots of first hand info from the crew, not to mention a boatload of pics. But hey, please keep the advice and tips coming. And if anyone has any special requests for pics, let me know.

I received this pic from a friend who said it was a Liberty headed to Russia from the Columbia River.  It may be the Columbia River, and maybe taken from the bridge at Astoria, but it isn't a Liberty, though I can't ID it as any standard freighter type.  I sent it to Frank Gerhardt who runs the excellent Maritime Commission site.   He wasn't sure what type ship it was either but opined it may be a pre-war British design.

Anyway, locomotives.

Fred

PS; There was a Liberty variant designed to carry crated aircraft.  My father served on one, the Frank O. Peterson, taking P-38s to Biak in 1945.

PPS:  Although it would probably be better to stow locomotives lower in the holds, they might not fit through the hatch openings.

Excellent point on the hatch dimensions--I'd not thought of that.

My first thought was on just how many thousands of pounds steam locomotives run; and weights like that seem tire fire up that reflexive meta-center height calculator in my head.

Does invite speculation on what dense, bulk product was stowed below decks to distribute the lading around the CG, though.

As it was standard practice to carry mixed loads as to avoid the "all your eggs in one basket" risk, I'd say it was probably ammunition, bombs, and bulk cargo such as grain.  That stuff would make good ballast.

Even if the hatch opening was big enough, you'd only get one engine per hatch.  Once you land the thing you aren't going to have much luck moving it into the wings.  Longshoremen are strong, but not that strong.

One of the things you will have to decide is whether your ship will be combat loaded or administrative loaded.

A combat loaded ship would be headed for an amphibious landing. The vehicles on deck would be loaded with ammunition, gas cans and the equipment needed immediately by the troops. The vehicle would have been off loaded into a landing craft and be ready to be driven as soon as it hit the beach. They would have been tied down but would not have been crated or partially disassembled.

If the ship were administratively loaded the vehicles on deck would be partially crated, partially disassembled  and otherwise prepared for a long ocean transit and to allow for as many as possible to be crammed on board. At their destination they would have been off loaded and reassembled filled with gas and otherwise been made ready to be shipped to an amphibious landing or just to be turned over to our allies who needed vehicles.

There was a lot more "combat" loading of LKA/AKA, since they were a bit more purpose-built to the task.

Admin versus Combat loading is some tough study, too.  You have to load the holds in combat loading on first = last out.   What is last om = first off, has to be coordinated with the commander of the land forces, too.  Oh, and you have to preserve the ship's stability through all this, too.

And also balance the loading versus the number/capacity of the landing craft you have, too.

The beachhead commander will want his armor and artillery as soon after the infantry lands as possible, too.   In WWII, you could get some balance there, for having a number of light tanks type available.

In one of those counter-intuitive things though, you need to unload the tankers and artillery ammo trucks first.  They drive slower to the rally points, so they have to start sooner.

This is even more fun in modern times with helo support.  You send the ground support & maintenance team, along with the fuel bladders before you even wake the aviators up.

It's a fascinating subject, and one that will continually challenge a person.

Those types of locomotives: 2-6-0 and 0-8-0 come in at a hefty 200,000 lbs or so each. Even without the tender and water, they'd be 75% of that. I have a very hard time imagining more than four as deck cargo on a trans Atlantic run in a storm.

Speaking of locomotives, in the steam era there were two basic types of boilers. Water tube or steam tube. I asked my father in law, who flew fighter bombers in WW2 abt that.

"We'd open them up to see which was which".

Well Bondo pictures don't lie. There is an advertisement for ALCO showing 10 locomotives deck loaded on the two hatches forward of the bridge of the ship and there is the picture elsewhere in this thread showing a whole deckload of locomotives. The ALCO locos were going to France, the others supposedly were going to Murmansk. I guess they got to their destinations all right.

As for water tube vs steam tube (properly fire tube as the hot gases go through the tubes which are surrounded by water and steam) most shipboard boilers are water tube and most locomotive boilers are fire tube. There were some rare experimental locomotives with water tube boilers but they would not be the ones being shipped during WWII.