La Ville d'Archangel

I took a few more pics to illustrate the difference between the shape of the decks between the JR/La Flore and Boullongne.

The previous pictures showed the close (to my eye anyway) similarities of the shape of the hull.

Once we view from over head the shape differences between the frigate & the indiaman become glaringly apparent.

The smaller scale represented the deck shape much closer. This is direct opposite from the hull shape which shows the smaller scale too short in both length & height.

Unfortunately, when the hull shape fits the scale of the drawing,the deck shape & size is way off. This is understandable considering one is a warship & the other a merchant ship.  I didn't realize the shape would be that different though.

The shape of the bow is much closer on the JR/La Flore and Boullongne than on the shape of the frigate from Boudroit's other book.  I included a couple of the JR/La Flore crewmen to show how close the scale is in comparison to the scale figure on the drawing.

Adrian

I also have a JR/La Flore kit that I was working on and am currently stalled at the moment. I am building this as (not really a conversion) a U.S. Frigate.

Here are a couple of pics that show it builds up pretty well.

Hopefully, I'll be getting back to this one in the near future.  I really need to finish this one (& my Bounty build) to get my bench clear (of ships at least)

Adrian

Here are a couple of pics comparing the scale drawings to the JR/La Flore hull.  I really don't know the actual scaling of the enlarged drawings, I just kinda eye-balled them to get them close to the scale of the kit.  For my skills& what I'll be using them for, These are ample for now.

The Kit in relation to both sets of drawings.

The kit hull half showing proportions with the smaller scale drawing.  Just a bit too small in my opinion.

The kit half showing proportions with the larger drawing.  This seems to be the closest of all of the copies I made.

And, for those interested, here are a couple pics of the JR kit.  I've removed some pieces from the sprues already so it's not quite complete but it will give you a good idea of exactly what the kit contains.

Hull halves with both decks.  One of the things I really like about this kit is the full gun deck with 30 2 piece cannons.

The sprues containing the other bits & pieces.  The kit also comes with two sheets of vac formed sails.

Hope these help any who are considering getting a JR/La Flore.  It's a great little kit.

Adrian

Wow, can't believe it's been a week. Time flies.

I've had no joy trying to get Boudroit's book via an inter-library loan.  Apparently it's nowhere in any of Louisiana's libraries.  Which I find surprising as Louisiana has the highest percentage of French speaking populace of any state. And, it's too expensive to order.

Oh well, looks like I'll just have to make do for now & maybe one will come up sooner or later.

I did manage to print the pages from the links from last week and have enlarged the three view of Boullongne until it nearly matches my JR/La Flore.  It is surprisingly close.  I am aware that there are noticeable differences, however, I don't feel that the outline offends me enough to do surgery on the hull at this point.  Later on, perhaps so.

I'll post a picture of how it matches up shortly after I wrap up a few other things that shows what I mean.

As to the price of the kits on ebay cerberusjf, There are 3 or 4 on right now for under $10.00.  Definately a bargain in my opinion. If you are patient, you can pick them up even cheaper, I paid 5.99 plus 5.99 shipping for one of mine & the other was nearly as cheap.  I saw a brand new one at Hobby Lobby last week & I think the price was $ 19.99.  So, I guess when you add in shipping charges,the prices are comparable.  It is a great little kit for the money.

I'm curious to the name also bondoman.  I had assumed the name to mean 'City of the Archangel' or some such in French. I wonder if there is a Russian connection?

Adrian

Am curious to know the name. It's a city in Russia.

I forgot to say the "Ville d'Archangel" is not in the book, sorry..

I had a look at "John Paul Jones and the Bonhomme Richard" and I noticed that the ship has a gaff on the stern, just like the Jolly Roger kit, so I'm not sure what would be correct :-S 

Another good book to get on inter-library loan would be Boudriot's "74 gun ship" vol 3 which deals with masting and rigging.  It's really wonderful and will explain everything you could ever want to know about the subject.

http://www.ancre.fr/Admin/Products/TechnicalDocs/Vaiss74canons.pdf

The kit only costs $10?  That's a great bargain.  I was tempted to buy one after reading this thread, but it's no longer available in the UK.. I'll have to keep an eye on the evil auction sites :-)

Thanks for the tip bondo, Lord knows I'll need all the help & advice  can get on this project.

Although daunting for me, the more I think about it, the more I want to do it. The historical aspect of such an obscure ship on my heritage weighs in a lot on my wanting to have a model of it.  I just wish I could find out a little more about the actual ship.

Accuracy not withstanding, If I can get a fairly accurate assessment of the ship down in model form I'll be happy with it.

Thanks for the links cerberus. I think I'll get in touch with my local library tomorrow to get the ball rolling on an inter-library loan of Boudroits book.  Is there any book in particular of Boudroits that I should be looking for?  I'm not familiar with his works but I assume he has several out.  I'll start by requesting the Boullongne book

I've saved a copy of the pdf's for the Boullongne & le Renomme for later use, I'm sure they will come in handy.

I'm sorry, but I don't know if La Ville d'Archangel had a prior name as a frigate or otherwise.  My only reference for the possibility of it being a frigate was that it was listed as a frigate in  a couple of the websites that I was doing research on.  As I mention in my post earlier, it did look like the information came from a singular source due to the sites have nearly identical  content.

I do have my doubts on the veracity of the sites that claimed it to be a frigate (or at the time of Acadian service, still a frigate) due to a listing of the crew of La Ville d'Archangel.  I don't have the info in front of me, but I do recall reading that the crew of La Ville was only 45 men.  Not possible for a frigate but very doable for a merchant vessel I think.

I did find a site online that listed French frigates by period but I did not find La Ville d'Archangel on the list.  However, as you mentioned, it may have been known by another name as a frigate and only changed to La Ville after its service as a frigate was over.

Other than what I've been able to locate (which is not much at all) online, the only info I have on the ship or type of ship is listed in this thread.

Thanks for the info schoonerbum, I appreciate it.  I realized after I thought about it for a bit that the way I mentioned up-post about cutting the gunports wouldn't work.  I'm glad you cleared it up for me. And, I'll definitely use your technique to support the hull halves to cut them. Ditto on installing styrene tabs to help with the assembly - I had a similar thought on doing that myself.

I also like bodomans method of marking the hulls with paint.  I ain't very good at this stuff, but I can sure follow a line with a saw (now after that, we'll just have to see).

Yes, the JR is pretty cheap for the most part. I've got my eye on a couple for under 10 bucks now on ebay.  Before it's all said & done, I'll probably pick up at least one more - just in case.

I like your suggestion on raising the gunports to give the raised effect for a full hull model as that is what I'll be attempting.

I am also inclined to install a poop/roundhouse over the quarterdeck but I'm not quiet convinced just yet.

As to your reference to having 2 to 4 guns, I was considering doing something similar.  I do want to close off the three stern most gunports and install windows in them as in the Boullongne model.  I'll also be closing off the first and probably the second ports from the bow.  I do want to concentrate the guns in the waist area as you recommended, I was just assuming the vessel would have needed more than 2 or 4.  My original thoughts were 6 or 8 guns but I was just guessing. I am planning on sealing all other ports closed.

Thanks for all the info, I really appreciate it.

I guess I could go for a Jolly Roger  group build, BUT, I'm incredibly slow at building.

Adrian A.

 I made cuts 0.4 inch aft of the 4th gunport and 0,1 inch forward of the 7th gun port. You want to mantain the 0.5 inch gap between ports so the distances are to the edge of your cuts/cleanup. I used a mitre box to square the hull relative to the keel for the cuts, and filled the hull on both sides of the cuts with scrap styrofoam to stabilize the part.  I used flat strips of styrene to "tab" the joints when I glued the fore and aft section of one side together working on a flat surface covered with wax paper, and with a metal ruler from a carpenter's square along the keel for alignment.  The bow of the second half was then glued to the previusly assembled full half - then the stern sections' forward face was sanded as required to maintain a good fit at the sternpost.

Nice thing about the Jolly Roger is that it's only a $10.00 kit... you don't have to be shy with the knife.

Relative to the terms "frigate", fregate and fragata...  in  English, French and Spanish, these terms also mean "full rigged ship", indicating three masts with square sails, not necessarily a fifth or sixth rate naval warship. Technically, HMS Victory was "frigate rigged", as was HMS Bounty. 

As a 600 ton East Indiamen, Boullongne (and most likely,La Ville d'Archangel) would have had the same number of decks and layout as La Flore, but both the depth in the hold and between decks height of the lower deck would have been greater, providing greater freeboard.  That illusion could be created using La Flore by doing a waterline model and some filling of the stem and hull near the waterline.  

A poop/roundhouse over the quarterdeck and raising the gunports with filling each port with an Evergreen "plank", below, and extending the port opening with a flat file above, could provide a similar illusion for a full hull model. 

I agree with the recommended yellow ochre for a hull color, but would suggest a darker brown wash to "age" and streak the wood. If  La Ville d'Archangel was an ex-Indiaman, pressed into use after the end of the war, she probably looked pretty tired.

A 20 gun arrangement would be used on an East Indiaman, but in the case of La Ville d'Archangel as a refugee transport, she would more likely have mounted only two to four small guns (4 pdr.) primarily used for saluting and signalling. I would build the hull  with all but two ports per side closed, the open ports located in the waist, This also makes raising the gunport line easier.

This will be an intriguing project for you. Half the fun is the research and reconstruction (planning).

Anybody up for a Jolly Roger based group build?

Yes, unfortunately Boudriot's boks are very expensive ...   and Boullogne is one of the more expensive ones in the range.  Inter-library loan would be a very good idea to let you see what it's like and if it's suitable. But there is no better reference than Boudriot's books at the moment. 

Boullogne didn't really have an extra deck, but she sits higher out of the water and the lower deck has ports, whereas the frigate hull sits lower in  the water and the lower deck has no ports.

you can see it if you compare these two illustrations

le Boullogne

http://www.ancre.fr/Admin/Products/TechnicalDocs/compagniedesindes.pdf

Frigate la Renomme

http://www.ancre.fr/Admin/Products/TechnicalDocs/larenommee.pdf

About the masting, the Jolly Roger has a gaff on the mizzen (the spar that sticks back towards the stern).  see no. 13 in this image

http://www.hms-trincomalee.co.uk/virtual/rigging/sailsrev.htm

This would be a spar on Boullogne, i.e. would protrude forward as well as aft..  You can see it on this model of Boullogne

http://gerard.delacroix.pagesperso-orange.fr/boullon/bou_index.htm

and you can see a discussion about the changes to this sail here

/forums/p/129206/1325592.aspx

I sem to remember reading that the spars on merchantmen were shorter than men of war, maybe masts too.  But it has been a long time since I read that and not sure where..

I'll look for the name Ville d'Archangel in the History of the French frigate, which lists all sailing frigates in the French navy.  Do you know if she had another name?

Here's a trick for that kind of surgery, and it's not too hard. Mask with tape from the side of what you want to keep. IE put tape down on the keep side, at each end, with the edge close to where you will cut later. Spray a contrasting color on. Cut with a saw leaving a 1/16 inch or so of painted plastic on each half. Then sand down until all the paint is gone.

Thanks for the replies guy's, I appreciate it.

Sorry for late response, been a rough weekend.

Thanks for the link to Evangeline  bondoman, I'll try to finish reading it over the next couple of days.

Thanks for all the info schoonerbumm, much appreciated.  I think a conversion of the JR hull is a bit more than I could tackle right now, just don't have the time (& probably not the skill-set) right now, but I feel a long term build looming in the future .

I do have a stupid question to run by you concerning your comment on cutting the hull at the 5th & 6th gunports.  I've never chopped up a hull before so I'm not sure where you would  mark the cut lines.  Would the section be from the forward edge of the 5th gunport to the rear edge of the 6th gunport as I believe? Or is there another way to cut them?

Unfortunately Boudriots books are way too much for me at this time.  I may try to get one from the local library to see if I can get a bit more info, particularly on the rigging.  Otherwise I will have to go with the JR's rigging which should be comparable?

From what I noticed on the website  cerberusjf  listed on the Boullongne, it does appears that the Boullongne has an additional deck than the JR but that would be beyond my scope at this time.  I also noticed the ship carried 20 guns - would that be a typical arrangement? 

On a couple of different sites I noticed that La Ville d'Archangel was listed as a frigate.  However, it appeared that the info must have come from a singular source at one time because the info appeared in identical (or nearly so) contexts.

Could La Ville d'Archangel have been a converted frigate? Was that a possibility?

An interesting dilemma, especially considering JR/LaFlore is a frigate of a nearly identical time frame of La Ville d'Archangel.

I think your right cerberusjf, I;ve read that about several ships - the captain often has the ship repainted to his personal taste somewhat.

I think the colors of the Boullongne would work just fine for my La Ville d'Archangel.  I printed some of the pictures from that site to have some reference material for my personal use when I get ready to tackle her.

Thanks for all the help.

Adrian A.

I wouldn't worry too much about how the model is painted. 

A description of how the "Duc de Duras" was painted in 1769-70 is in Boudriot's monography of "Bonhomme Richard" which states that the wales were black, the planking in-between were yellow ochre and blue for the upperworks around the quarter deck.  Red ochre was used extensively below-decks.  But I think the captain can reserve the right to paint the ship how he likes in this case.

I don't have either kit, but the Lindberg "Jolly Roger" at least looks like a real ship, whereas the Revell "Bonhomme Richard" looks like (from what I can see) a bit of '60s fantasy.  The problem is that the "Jolly Roger" is a frigate, a bit low, long  and fine for a merchantman, but it depends how fussy you want to be.

Comments on La Flore vs. La Ville d'Archangel

As far as plastic models go, La Flore/ Jolly Roger probably has the best potential for a representation of La Ville d'Archangel. Bonhomme Richard is too large and would not have had the same layout. A section of La Flore’s hull encompassing the 5^th and 6^th gunports (counted from the bow) can be chopped from the hull (x-sections are constant in this part of the hull) to provide appropriate dimensions, ratios and deck layouts. The main wales even line up reasonably well – some putty will be required on the port side. If you would like, a small poop cabin over the aft end of the quarterdeck would not be inappropriate for a French vessel and would be simple to construct from styrene. The dimensions from my chopped hull (from a naval frigate project in work) are shown below.

The prototype for La Flore was a model in the French Maritime Museum and is generally considered to be a model of a vessel that was never built. (Her popularity in the 1960s stemmed from a presentation model given to President Kennedy - the real vessel was reputed to have been a gift from the new United States to the French monarchy)  She is too long for her beam and draft, and her lines are too fine to carry the supposed armament. The model shows significant deadrise (the angle between the bottom of the hull and a horizontal plane)… but French warships and merchantmen of the late 18th century had flat floors and full hulls for carrying capability. The hull shown on La Flore is “extreme”; designed for speed and weatherliness, not carrying capability. 

Again, you can easily fix the length problem, but providing representative hull lines (if you care) would require a lot of putty, or a waterline presentation. 

Chopping the hull for appropriate length will require repositioning of the masts, channels, and decks.  I would suggest filling the forward gun port and the after three or so ports. As a merchantman, she would only carry 2 to 4 small cannon (four or six pound carriage guns-meaning that you need to scratch build cannon or raid another kit) as opposed to an East Indiaman, which would be much more heavily armed.

The advertised scale for Lindberg’s La Flore is 1/133 – but there are many inconsistencies when compared to the Musee de Marine plans.   1/144 would work best for making La Ville d'Archangel from this  kit since I can’t get 1/133 to give the appropriate tonnage (pesky B/L-tonnage relationships). With the variables involved in the sources and model that you have to work with, I wouldn't worry too much about the differences in French and English measurement systems.

Relative to tonnage, 600 tons was large for an 18^th century merchant vessel; 95% of ship rigged merchant vessels were of 500 tons or less with a median value of about 270 tons (from Lloyd’s data for 1800). Larger, privately owned vessels were usually privateers or East Indiamen.

French East Indiamen of this era were usually of 600, 900 (Bonhomme Richard) or 1200 tons. A 600 ton vessel would be equivalent in size to a large 6^th rate warship, a 900 tonner comparable to a large 5^th rate (Bonhomme Richard vs. Serapis) and a 1200 tonner comparable to a typical 4^th rate.

Tonnage in this framework was a politically factored estimate of internal volume, NOT DISPLACEMENT. The displacement tonnage for a 600 ton burthen merchant vessel with a block coefficient (accounts for actual hull shape) typical for a full bodied hull (BC over .60) would be approximately 800 tons.  [Approximate tonnage burthen = (Keel * Beam* Beam/2)/94]  [Approximate displacement = (Block coefficient*Deck length*Beam*average draft to plank)*64/2240]

So La Ville d'Archangel would have been an unusually large, ship rigged, merchant vessel, most likely a former East Indiaman.  Le Boullongne should provide a rich source for deck and rigging details… just keep in mind that her Atlantic seaboard service would have created different requirements relative to guns, deck usage, etc. Boudriot’s books typically give a listing of vessels in the “class”, so you might find La Ville d'Archangel, listed in Compagnie des Indes.

Unfortunately, Boudriot’s books are expensive, the best price that I have found for Compagnie des Indes is $285.00,  Marchand Navire runs $140.00 to $200.00. [look on ADDALL.COM under used books]  Both Florida State and Texas A&M have Compagnie des Indes in their libraries, you might explore an interlibrary loan.

This looks to be a very interesting project, good luck.

http://www.fullbooks.com/Evangeline-A-Tale-of-Acadie.html

A pretty sorrowful tale.

Thanks for the replies, I appreciate it.

Your reference to the Jolly Roger / La Flore looks pretty close bondoman, the link cerberusjf provided has a nice model that bears a good deal of resemblance to the JR.  And, as luck would have it, I have a couple in my stash.  And I have to agree, the JR is a very nice ship model.  I think I'll take your advice & not bother with the Bon Homme.

Longfellow's Evangeline - it's been years since I've read it.  I think it's time to reread it also.  I may even make a pass over to St. Martinville and visit the site there.  Its said to be the home of Evangeline and has the Evangeline Oak - & its only about 1 1/2 hours from the house.

Thanks for the links sprue-ce, I appreciate them.  The site for the Richards (pronounced Ree-Chards down here & not Rich-ards) is interesting, I'll have to show it to my son-in-law, he's a Richard.

The flute drawings are interesting but I noticed the dating is a bit older by about 100 years so I'm not sure if that designed survived for that long.  The basic shape fit my vision of what I thought the ship to look like though.  For some reason I envisioned raised foc'sle and poop decks for the La Ville d'Archangel

I visited the French site and tried to register but it hasn't gone through yet for some reason.  I'll check back in a day or so, my spam filter may have stopped it.  I can't speak or read French, but I gave the bing online translation a workout tonight checking out some of the builds there.

Thanks for the links cerberusjf - both links worked fine for me.  The model of the Boullogne was very nice and it, along with bondomans comment has convinced me that the Lindberg Jolly Roger is my most logical choice.  The era & designs are similar enough for what I have in mind. And while the JR appears a bit smaller than what the Boullogne illustrates for an east indiaman, I think it will do adequately for now

I do have to question the colors on the Boullogne.  Not if they are correct but if they are, in fact, representative of the basic colors carried by the French east indiamen of the era.

Again, Thanks for the help.  I appreciate it.

Adrian A.

Maybe it's worth having a look at Jean Boudriot's monograph on the "Boullogne", a 600 ton east Indiaman constructed in 1759

http://www.ancre.fr/Product.aspx?ID=3774258&L=EN

A nice model can be seen here

http://www.shipmodeling.ca/aa415-01.html

The publisher's website index page for ancre.fr does not seem to be working at the moment, my antivirus won't give me access to it, very odd..

My brief search on Yahoo France gives a type of common

merchant ship of the 18th century  

( navire marchand XVIIIème siècle  )

 called a Flûte    

This website

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fl%C3%BBte_%28bateau%29

has a period drawing of that type of ship.

This ancestry website:

http://www.himandus.net/hofh/chauvin/richard/richard_00_acadian_history.html

notes ship types used to transport Acadians:

"Rolle des familles Acadiennes embarquées à Falmouth le 26 mai 1763 à bord de la flute du roi La Fauvette commandée par le Sieur Gourau

La Ville d'Archangel is also mentioned, but not what type of ship it was.

You might try posting your question ( in English ) on this French language, 18th century ship modeler website:

http://www.laroyale-modelisme.net/f43-navires-du-xviiieme-siecle

Hope this helps some.

And thanks likewise. I've spent a bunch of time this evening brushing up on Acadian History.

And there's of course Longfellow's Evangeline. Always worth a read.

The Lindberg Jolly Roger, ex La Flore is a very nice ship model and it did strike me as a fairly close match.

Yours I guess is a Bark, the La Flore is full rigged.

The Bon Homme is a pretty bad kit, I would not bother. Also probably too early a design.

Great stuff.

Thanks for the response bondoman, I appreciate it.

Yes, that is one of the sites that I had been doing a bit of research on.  The image of the ship is the reason I was leaning towards the Bon Homme Richard.  I found a Lindberg offering on ebay that bears a close resemblence to that drawing.  I don't know what the scale of the Lindberg kit is but I imagine it is a small scale (ex-Pyro) kit.  I don't know if the old smaller scale would be worth the effort.

BTW, my direct ancestor is Michel Aucoin listed on that passenger list.  I find it incredible to find things like that.  I also found that an ancestor fought for the Confederacy during the Civil War and was killed in Vicksburg in 1863. The eerie part was his name was Adrian also.

I know Revell has just released a repop (ex-Aurora?) of a larger scale (1/132?) Bon Homme Richard but I'm not familiar with the kit.

I would like to do something close to the 600 ton size mentioned in the records.  From what I've read, it was not a warship.  However, if I'm not mistaken, I believe that all ships of the era were armed to one extent or another.

Hence, a conversion of sorts from a typical warship of the era would be a consideration. Perhaps one of the Lindberg 'Pirate' series (except for the Jolly Roger, I don't feel the shape is close enough from what I've seen so far). But I'm not familiar enough with any of them.

I'm also not familiar enough with French ships to know where to start digging to find any further info on the ship that I was not able to find via google search so any further sources would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Adrian A.

Here's the result of a quick web search. no doubt you've seen this.

http://www.acadian-cajun.com/ship6.htm