I need some scale size advice.

Chopper Greg

I find my self in a bit of a quandary.  

After a long absence from military models ( ~30 years ) I find my self looking to get back into it because I want to be able to compare different aircraft and ships, with one another, and models of the same scale would make that directly possible.

The problem comes from the fact that while a 1:350 model of an Iowa class BB, is an acceptable size ( a bit bigger is ok too - I might be able to accept up to 48 or 60" for the maximum length of the finished model if cost is not prohibitive ) for comparing with other ships, but a 1:350 model of a B-17G is only slightly less absurd than a 1:700 model of the same aircraft.

I do not need excessive amount of fine detail, but would like a reasonable amount of accuracy.

 

Does anyone have any idea how I might resolve this big vs. small problem?

Historically ship models were made mostly in 1/8 (1:96) or 1/16 (1:192) scale.    These were mostly wooden models.   As injected plastic became economical to use there were more "box-scale" kits - i.e. kits who's scale varied to fit  a standard sized box.   In the sixties a consortiuum of Japanese model manufacturers decided on a common 1:700 scale for their waterline ship models.   One of the reasons that that has been postulated for that scale was the size of Japanese homes.    Airfix decided on 1:600 scale,   other European manufactures decided on 1:400 scale.   Later 1:350 was introduced as twice the size of 1:700 (actually 8 times the volume).      1:72 scale and larger has been used for selected smaller subjects  (PT boats,  Corvettes, etc).   Lately there has been a growth of make it bigger and some fool will buy it - even if he doesn't have space for more than one.

RC scales have continued to be in 1:192 and 1:96 due to the size and weight requirements of the radios and motors.   There have been some 1:48 RC hulls (twice 1:96 scale) but they are expensive fiberglass items which require you to scratchbuilt everything from the deck up.  Plan on it taking a year of more to complete each one.  

If you are looking for a wide-ranging collection of ships, armor,  and aircraft which are common in scale you could do a 1:72 scale PT boat, Sherman tank, and B-17.   You will be able to find a couple more ship options in the patrol-boat/corvette -sized craft - but generally nothing larger.      1:48 scale - the ship pickin's get slimmer except for the bare RC hulls.   In 1:32/1:35 scale you again fall into the patrol-boat subject with nothing larger.

I would suggest that if you want a wide ranging collection of ships of several classes you go with the more popular 1:700 or 1:350 scales and build everything in that scale.   To delineate the scale size differences use some human figures (yes they are available in those smaller scales) to illustrate the size differences between your 1:48 scale pilot and 1 1:350 scale crew

EdGrune

Historically ship models were made mostly in 1/8 (1:96) or 1/16 (1:192) scale.    These were mostly wooden models.   As injected plastic became economical to use there were more "box-scale" kits - i.e. kits who's scale varied to fit  a standard sized box.   In the sixties a consortiuum of Japanese model manufacturers decided on a common 1:700 scale for their waterline ship models.   One of the reasons that that has been postulated for that scale was the size of Japanese homes.    Airfix decided on 1:600 scale,   other European manufactures decided on 1:400 scale.   Later 1:350 was introduced as twice the size of 1:700 (actually 8 times the volume).      1:72 scale and larger has been used for selected smaller subjects  (PT boats,  Corvettes, etc).   Lately there has been a growth of make it bigger and some fool will buy it - even if he doesn't have space for more than one.

RC scales have continued to be in 1:192 and 1:96 due to the size and weight requirements of the radios and motors.   There have been some 1:48 RC hulls (twice 1:96 scale) but they are expensive fiberglass items which require you to scratchbuilt everything from the deck up.  Plan on it taking a year of more to complete each one.  

If you are looking for a wide-ranging collection of ships, armor,  and aircraft which are common in scale you could do a 1:72 scale PT boat, Sherman tank, and B-17.   You will be able to find a couple more ship options in the patrol-boat/corvette -sized craft - but generally nothing larger.      1:48 scale - the ship pickin's get slimmer except for the bare RC hulls.   In 1:32/1:35 scale you again fall into the patrol-boat subject with nothing larger.

I would suggest that if you want a wide ranging collection of ships of several classes you go with the more popular 1:700 or 1:350 scales and build everything in that scale.   To delineate the scale size differences use some human figures (yes they are available in those smaller scales) to illustrate the size differences between your 1:48 scale pilot and 1 1:350 scale crew

I was kind of afraid that it would be that kind of an answer.  

The ships I'm looking at include the Iowa class, the Alaska class, and some of the other larger ships ( foreign and domestic ), while the aircraft I wanted to directly compare them to occluded the P-61, B-17G, A-26, de Havilland Mosquito and others.

While using a human figure would show the size differences between the aircraft and the ships, it would still make the mental gymnastics to directly compare the ships and aircraft, more difficult.

Edit:  Out of curosity, what companies are better at not being box scale?

Yeah, scale can get ... ugly. I build 1/700 ships for one simple reason - my apartment is pretty dang small. ONE 1/72 scale ship would take of the space of a small task force of 1/700 ships, so it's really not much of a contest.

But I would not throw ni the towel just yet. It really is kind of amazing how detailed some of the 1/700 and 1/350 aircraft can be made, with a little TLC, some sweat, and a few shots of tequila to steady your nerves.

Just take the instruction sheets from your a/c, photocopy the plan views and scale them down. Laminate to a card and hold it up next to your model.

In general no ships are box scale any longer except for re releases.

mfsob

Yeah, scale can get ... ugly. I build 1/700 ships for one simple reason - my apartment is pretty dang small. ONE 1/72 scale ship would take of the space of a small task force of 1/700 ships, so it's really not much of a contest.

But I would not throw ni the towel just yet. It really is kind of amazing how detailed some of the 1/700 and 1/350 aircraft can be made, with a little TLC, some sweat, and a few shots of tequila to steady your nerves.

I have no tallent for something that small - not to mention the fact that one of the cats could carry away a 1/700 or 1/350 scale B17.

bondoman

In general no ships are box scale any longer except for re releases.

Generally, yes.    But there are some current releases like those from Zengdenfu-label of the Peoples Liberation Army Model Company.   They have their 33cm line.  The models are all 33cm regardless of the size of the prototype.

The most outstanding purveyor of box-scale kits was (is) Revell.   Their old kits ranged from 1:72 (PT-109) through 1:240 (Ward/Campbeltown) to 1:540 (Essex-class carriers).    Many of these are now being re-released.   Their quality is not up to current state-of-the-art.  Often there is some significant de-construction required before assembly can proceed toward a state of the art representation.

As far as modern non-box brands:  Tamiya, Trumpeter (spotty quality), and Dragon (many small details & 'challenging' instructions) are the top injected labels (IMO)

EdGrune

Generally, yes.    But there are some current releases like those from Zengdenfu-label of the Peoples Liberation Army Model Company.   They have their 33cm line.  The models are all 33cm regardless of the size of the prototype.

The most outstanding purveyor of box-scale kits was (is) Revell.   Their old kits ranged from 1:72 (PT-109) through 1:240 (Ward/Campbeltown) to 1:540 (Essex-class carriers).    Many of these are now being re-released.   Their quality is not up to current state-of-the-art.  Often there is some significant de-construction required before assembly can proceed toward a state of the art representation.

As far as modern non-box brands:  Tamiya, Trumpeter (spotty quality), and Dragon (many small details & 'challenging' instructions) are the top injected labels (IMO)

 

When you say "spotty quality", are you saying that most models are dead on, but every so often something slips through QC, or it's a serious hit or miss issue?

Chopper Greg

 

Does anyone have any idea how I might resolve this big vs. small problem?

The main problem is that the things you want to compare are drastically different sizes in real life. 

If you want to compare an Iowa-class battleship with a B-17, maybe you could do both in 1:350 and display them side-by-side to show their relative sizes.  You could then have another B-17 in a larger scale with the same markings as the 1:350 version in order to show more detail of the plane. 

Mark

I wouldn't even know where to find a 1/350 B-17, for that matter I'm having a hard enough time finding a 1/350 Iowa ( most of what I am seeing are 1/700 Iowas ).

Chopper Greg

When you say "spotty quality", are you saying that most models are dead on, but every so often something slips through QC, or it's a serious hit or miss issue?

The Trump North Carolina (among other of their kits) has fitting issues.   The Trump Sullivans has decl  tiles which are like raised concrete sidewalks and the guns are just sticks on boxes.   Conversely the Trump England of the same vintage is much better detail.  Like there is an A-team and B-Team of designers.

You won't find a 1:350 B-17.   PitRoad makes some in 1:700 scale

As far as the 1:350 scale Iowa-class Tamiya makes the Missouri and NewJersey  and Revell makes a modernized New Jersey.  

Your Alaska, you won't find in plastic.    But it is available in resin in 1:350 from either YankeeModelworks or Iron Shipwright.   In 1:700 it it out of production from Samek

White Ensign Models has a good selection of 1/350 aircraft, as does Trumpeter. I just bought a bag of 1/350 B-25's for guess what?

EdGrune

The Trump North Carolina (among other of their kits) has fitting issues.   The Trump Sullivans has decl  tiles which are like raised concrete sidewalks and the guns are just sticks on boxes.   Conversely the Trump England of the same vintage is much better detail.  Like there is an A-team and B-Team of designers.

You won't find a 1:350 B-17.   PitRoad makes some in 1:700 scale

As far as the 1:350 scale Iowa-class Tamiya makes the Missouri and NewJersey  and Revell makes a modernized New Jersey.  

Your Alaska, you won't find in plastic.    But it is available in resin in 1:350 from either YankeeModelworks or Iron Shipwright.   In 1:700 it it out of production from Samek

Ok that's fair enough.

How about a kit of the USS Hull (DD-945), with the 8" gun?

I have spent a fair amount of time online looking for it, I find alot of talk about the Hull and even more about the Forrest Sherman class, but very little in the way of model data, but I could be using the wrong search terms.

Chopper Greg

How about a kit of the USS Hull (DD-945), with the 8" gun?

I have spent a fair amount of time online looking for it, I find alot of talk about the Hull and even more about the Forrest Sherman class, but very little in the way of model data, but I could be using the wrong search terms.

From a quick look around,  the Hull (DD-945) was a one-off modification of a Forrest Sherman class gun destroyer.  

One of the things about the model industry is that the mass market model producers (i.e. injected plastic kits) would not normally do a one-off subject since they cant recoup expenses doing subsequent releases as a different subject. 

Garage kit/cottage industry model producers do not have the same viewpoint.  They produce things which interest them.   Sometimes one-offs.

However there is no kit of the Hull with the Mk71 8"/55 cal gun.   You will be left to scratchbuild one.  Use one of several references such as Norman Friedman's US Destroyers - illustrated design history  and/or Friedmans Naval Weapon Systems.  They will provide some line drawings of the gun mount.  Scratchbuild out of styrene stock material or carve from wood.

Graft the gun to either a 1:319 scale Revell Forrest Sherman (out of production - box scale) or an 1:350 scale Iron Shipwrights Forrest Sherman.    I think I'd do the latter - contact Jon Warneke of ISW directly via his website and explain what you want to do.    He may have a Mk71 mount which could be a drop-in replacement.   That is one of the benefits of dealing with cottage industry producers - you can talk to them and work out solutions to your problems.  Try that with Mr Revell.

As far as photos - go to navsource.org and click the links to the destroyer page.   Then go down that page to the Hull 945.  OPen that page and there are a number of good photos of the hull, as launched and with the gun mount modification.    You won't find specific model data at navsource

I agree with Mark, your best bet is to do 1/350 ships with 1/350 aircraft. Then do the same aircraft in bigger scale like 1/72 or 1/48.  Unfortunately, you will most likely not find any aircraft that wasn't used by their respective Navies in 1/350. Besides the already mentioned Trumpeter and White Ensign, Tamiya makes a modern 1/350 aircraft set.