this is the correct name of the book Invasion: Alternative History of the German Invasion of England, July 1940 its by Kenneth Macksey 

CapnMac82

 

Tankluver:

I am kind of hoping to make this an actual what if scenario, where it would be the actual invasion. I do like the idea of the training landing though, it sounds very comic in some ways.

 

Well, the considered professional amphibious warfare opinion is that, had SeeAdler been pushed forward, the Germans would have been lucky for it to only reach Dieppe as a debacle.

There is very little evidence of any sort of combined-arms planning, where Falschrimjaeger would have been used to secure port facilities for unloading heavy equipment.  The bulk of what was assembled was little better than longboats; good for infantry, for horses, but useless for anything resembling the Panzerdivizion as used in 1940.  The Germans also were bogged down by their own logistics tail.  A full 2/3 of their boats had to be dedicated the 3 B's--bullets, beans, & bog paper.  Just as the Germans had not developed ramped landing craft, they had also not developed a dedicated supply train.  They had no ships similar to the APA's and AKA's.

Which meant, instead of cycling waves of landing craft a mile or so back to the landing ships, they would need to be taken the full distance back across the Channel for everything.

So, the "what if" is thin gruel at best.  The initial landings would been chaotic, a number of the barged would have been sunk or riddled with fires from Matilda and early-Mark Churchill tanks.  The latter easily capable against the tiny numbers of  specialty armor that could have been fielded.  The littoral is an unkind place, and it has little charity for those who would war across it without due respect.

Which is why I'd find an exercise, one of the practice sessions, a much better thing to model.  Not needing to "what if" or "speculate" removes much deus ex machinata in the posing.  The people involved need not be in dire straights, but can be a fervent and devoted as is humanly possible.  But, mostly, an exercise is one of the few times the various specialty bits/vehicles are likely to be in the same place at the same time.

But, that's my bias.  I've landed and recovered an entire regiment across a littoral a time or two.  And, for all my time sorting Logistics on a Beach, I still do not have the first clue how to properly model the way the sand and ocean meet that gives that feel or wet, super-saturated sand; then the damp sand, and then the transition to the powdery, dry sand from above that to the scrub line.  Sigh.

It's said--incorrectly--that "Eskimo" have 12-14 words for "snow"--well, I've tried, but I run out of cuss-words about 9-10 when naming the kind of sand out on the littoral . . .

Thank you very much for that input sir, now the reason I thought that the landing could be modeled as a some what, what if  successful operation, was because I at one time had started to read Invasion: Operation sea lion 1940, the author I believe is the armored officer from the British army,  but reading some of the reviews it sounded as if the book suggests that the British navy and defenses would of been disheartened! I want to read this book through and see if I could pick another scenario. I do like the training idea though, it does have some plus sides to it because men disembarking in a more orderly manner and equipment can be made neat and sorted out. 

Tankluver

I am kind of hoping to make this an actual what if scenario, where it would be the actual invasion. I do like the idea of the training landing though, it sounds very comic in some ways.

Well, the considered professional amphibious warfare opinion is that, had SeeAdler been pushed forward, the Germans would have been lucky for it to only reach Dieppe as a debacle.

There is very little evidence of any sort of combined-arms planning, where Falschrimjaeger would have been used to secure port facilities for unloading heavy equipment.  The bulk of what was assembled was little better than longboats; good for infantry, for horses, but useless for anything resembling the Panzerdivizion as used in 1940.  The Germans also were bogged down by their own logistics tail.  A full 2/3 of their boats had to be dedicated the 3 B's--bullets, beans, & bog paper.  Just as the Germans had not developed ramped landing craft, they had also not developed a dedicated supply train.  They had no ships similar to the APA's and AKA's.

Which meant, instead of cycling waves of landing craft a mile or so back to the landing ships, they would need to be taken the full distance back across the Channel for everything.

So, the "what if" is thin gruel at best.  The initial landings would been chaotic, a number of the barged would have been sunk or riddled with fires from Matilda and early-Mark Churchill tanks.  The latter easily capable against the tiny numbers of  specialty armor that could have been fielded.  The littoral is an unkind place, and it has little charity for those who would war across it without due respect.

Which is why I'd find an exercise, one of the practice sessions, a much better thing to model.  Not needing to "what if" or "speculate" removes much deus ex machinata in the posing.  The people involved need not be in dire straights, but can be a fervent and devoted as is humanly possible.  But, mostly, an exercise is one of the few times the various specialty bits/vehicles are likely to be in the same place at the same time.

But, that's my bias.  I've landed and recovered an entire regiment across a littoral a time or two.  And, for all my time sorting Logistics on a Beach, I still do not have the first clue how to properly model the way the sand and ocean meet that gives that feel or wet, super-saturated sand; then the damp sand, and then the transition to the powdery, dry sand from above that to the scrub line.  Sigh.

It's said--incorrectly--that "Eskimo" have 12-14 words for "snow"--well, I've tried, but I run out of cuss-words about 9-10 when naming the kind of sand out on the littoral . . .

Thank you all for the information, I know they do look really short, a little modification may be needed to get to the desired size. I may also try and make my own, I had a plan to make the front of a barge that had the landing doors open, and have infantry and a tank wading ashore in an area where it would be low tide.

Howdy!

Ten years ago I studied in western Germany and had a lot of opportunities to take a look at the water trafic on the Rhine. There's no problem with the river barges there - they are pretty big. I guess they were smaller in 1940, but hundreds of tons of displacement seem to be totally in the ballpark. Now for example the barges in the UK are a totally different story - they are canal barges, there is a legal limit on their width, to say it like a land rat, and they are suprisingly tiny in comparison with the ones I've seen in Germany. The models that can be seen in the original post are closer to the english barges, but wider. Maybe they would be OK for canals in Holland, but the German canals are wide enough for the big craft, so big barges are widely used throughout. Hope it helps, have a nice day

Pawel

bondoman

Reality check folks.

I cannot find a length for that Verlinden barge, but it's really tiny. Judging from the one thats got the fuel drums sideways on it, it is maybe 3 meters in beam and say about 6 or 7 meters long.

According to that excellent Wiki article, the invasion barges were more in the range of 30 to 40 meters, like this one only beamier and deeper. With a displacement of 360 to 500 tons.

http://barges.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=171143

That's got a beam of 5 meters and displaces about 160 metric tons.

So the VE one is not at all close to anything that would have been used, about 4 to 5 times too short and 3 times too narrow.

For what it's worth, Verlinden is not known for their research or accuracy.

Reality check folks.

I cannot find a length for that Verlinden barge, but it's really tiny. Judging from the one thats got the fuel drums sideways on it, it is maybe 3 meters in beam and say about 6 or 7 meters long.

According to that excellent Wiki article, the invasion barges were more in the range of 30 to 40 meters, like this one only beamier and deeper. With a displacement of 360 to 500 tons.

http://barges.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=171143

That's got a beam of 5 meters and displaces about 160 metric tons.

So the VE one is not at all close to anything that would have been used, about 4 to 5 times too short and 3 times too narrow.

Manstein's revenge

 

Tankluver:

 

 

bondoman:

You might be on to a fun project. The upper barge is probably the better choice, as that cargo boom on the other one isn't going to be of any use. Or the wheelhouse, since 3/4 of the barges were to be towed. Also, I'd buy two and splice them together to get a more typical looking Dutch or French inland river barge, 40 to 50 meters long.

Other possibilities include British Home Guard troops inspecting a Tauchpanzer at low tide, or a British sailor guarding a group of captured troops huddled on the bow of an MTB.

 

 

Another question, would the Germans use captured equipment such as polish tanks or French and British tanks. I have a twin turret polish tank that looks like it may be able to fit into the cargo barge after the walls are built up.

 

Maybe...But I'd say the Mk I and Mk II tanks would have been ideally suited for barges (even some Mk III's)...my guess is that German equipment would have been used for the first wave of landings...maybe captured equipment used to fill static units protecting the coast of France while the invasion was undertaken...

 

That makes sense, I want to see if at first a Mk II would fit, but I ultimately want to have a Kleinar on a barge or at least driving up to the beach. I was thinking if I could , make it so that part of the beach was showing, i'd attempt to have a panzer variant on the beach coming out of the water, not like a tauch panzer, but as if it had disembarked and drove the rest of the way up.

Tankluver

bondoman:

You might be on to a fun project. The upper barge is probably the better choice, as that cargo boom on the other one isn't going to be of any use. Or the wheelhouse, since 3/4 of the barges were to be towed. Also, I'd buy two and splice them together to get a more typical looking Dutch or French inland river barge, 40 to 50 meters long.

Other possibilities include British Home Guard troops inspecting a Tauchpanzer at low tide, or a British sailor guarding a group of captured troops huddled on the bow of an MTB.

 

Another question, would the Germans use captured equipment such as polish tanks or French and British tanks. I have a twin turret polish tank that looks like it may be able to fit into the cargo barge after the walls are built up.

bondoman

You might be on to a fun project. The upper barge is probably the better choice, as that cargo boom on the other one isn't going to be of any use. Or the wheelhouse, since 3/4 of the barges were to be towed. Also, I'd buy two and splice them together to get a more typical looking Dutch or French inland river barge, 40 to 50 meters long.

Other possibilities include British Home Guard troops inspecting a Tauchpanzer at low tide, or a British sailor guarding a group of captured troops huddled on the bow of an MTB.

I see the cargo barge is a bit small, my idea was to build up the sides on it with extra plastic, I was even thinking of cutting the middle out of it and extending it to make it longer.  
Another question, would the Germans use captured equipment such as polish tanks or French and British tanks. I have a twin turret polish tank that looks like it may be able to fit into the cargo barge after the walls are built up.

That's from Wiki if anyone wants to read more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea_Lion

Landing craft

Invasion barges assembled at the German port of Wilhelmshaven

One of the more glaring deficiencies in the German Navy for mounting large-scale amphibious assaults was an almost complete lack of purpose-built landing craft. The Navy had already taken some small steps in remedying this situation with construction of the Pionierlandungsboot 39 (Engineer Landing Boat 39), a self-propelled shallow-draft vessel which could carry 45 infantrymen, two light vehicles or 20 tons of cargo and land on an open beach (unloading via a pair of clamshell doors at the bow). But by late September 1940, only two prototypes had been delivered.^[12] Recognizing the need for an even larger craft capable of landing both tanks and infantry onto a hostile shore, the Navy began development of the 220-ton Marinefährprahm (MFP) but these too were unavailable in time for a landing on English soil in 1940, the first of them not being commissioned until April 1941.

So how would the Navy assemble a large sea-going invasion fleet in the short time allotted? The obvious solution was to convert inland river barges to the task. Towards that end, the Kriegsmarine collected approximately 2,400 barges from throughout Europe (860 from Germany, 1,200 from the Netherlands and Belgium and 350 from France). Of these, only about 800 were powered (some insufficiently). The rest required towing by tugs.^[13]

Specialized landing equipment

As part of a Navy competition, prototypes for a prefabricated "heavy landing bridge" or jetty (similar in function to later Allied Mulberry Harbours) were designed and built by Krupp Stahlbau and Dortmunder Union and successfully overwintered in the North Sea in 1941/42.^[14] Krupp's design won out as it only required one day to install as opposed to twenty-eight days for the Dortmunder Union bridge. The Krupp bridge consisted of a series of 32m-long connecting platforms, each supported on the seabed by four steel columns. The platforms could be raised or lowered by heavy-duty winches in order to accommodate the tide. The German Navy initially ordered eight complete Krupp units composed of six platforms each. This was reduced to six units by the fall of 1941 and eventually cancelled altogether when it became apparent Sea Lion would never take place. ^[15]

In mid-1942, both the Krupp and Dortmunder prototypes were shipped to the Channel Islands and installed together off Alderney where they were used for unloading materials needed to fortify the island. Referred to as the "German jetty" by local inhabitants, it remained standing for the next thirty-six years until demolition crews finally removed it in 1978/79, a testament to its durability.^[15]

The German Army developed a portable landing bridge of its own nicknamed Seeschlange (Sea Snake). This "floating roadway" was formed from a series of joined modules that could be towed into place to act as a temporary jetty. Moored ships could then unload their cargo either directly onto the roadbed or lower it down onto waiting vehicles via their heavy-duty booms. The Seeschlange was successfully tested by the Army Training Unit at Le Havre in the fall of 1941 and later slated for use in Operation Herkules, the proposed Italo-German invasion of Malta. It was easily transportable by rail.^[15]

Specialized vehicles slated for Sea Lion included the Landwasserschlepper (LWS). Under development since 1935, this amphibious tractor was originally intended for use by Army engineers to assist with river crossings. Three of them were assigned to Tank Detachment 100 as part of the invasion and it was intended to use them for pulling ashore unpowered assault barges and towing vehicles across the beaches. They would also have been used to carry supplies directly ashore during the six hours of falling tide when the barges were grounded. This involved towing a Kässbohrer amphibious trailer (capable of transporting 10-20 tons of freight) behind the LWS.^[16] The LWS was demonstrated to General Franz Halder on 2 August 1940 by the Reinhardt Trials Staff on the island of Sylt and, though he was critical of its high silhouette on land, he recognized the overall usefulness of the design. It was proposed to build enough tractors that each invasion barge could be assigned one or two of them but the late date and difficulties in mass-producing the vehicle prevented implementation of that plan.^[16]

You might be on to a fun project. The upper barge is probably the better choice, as that cargo boom on the other one isn't going to be of any use. Or the wheelhouse, since 3/4 of the barges were to be towed. Also, I'd buy two and splice them together to get a more typical looking Dutch or French inland river barge, 40 to 50 meters long.

Other possibilities include British Home Guard troops inspecting a Tauchpanzer at low tide, or a British sailor guarding a group of captured troops huddled on the bow of an MTB.

Thank you for the information, I am kind of hoping to make this an actual what if scenario, where it would be the actual invasion. I do like the idea of the training landing though, it sounds very comic in some ways. 

I just recently bought the cargo barge, so I should be working on it by next week. This is going to be a slow process, as I will have to return to school after a week home. 

Do you guys think the verlinden cargo barge can be modified by adding extra styrene to it and building up the side walls that arent there? I want to make it so that it can be an open ramped amphibious landing craft, maybe even one that can hold a Pz I or II, or even a Kleinar!

Yes, this is serious thread drift, but I can imagine very few things a troop could wear less-good for an amphibious landing than Marschstiefel.

Not that wool M-41 trousers and M-1936 Dismounted Leggings were that much better, but they were not quite so open at the top, either.  (Which was why the Marines often unbloused their trousers before a landing.)

If a person were going to model Germans at a practice landing, there is that Tamiya German figure posed as climbing out could be re-posed to be pouring water out of his boot.  Then, some lads busy pushing a Schwimmwagen out of dry sand, or a Kubelwagen out of wet sand would have an authentic feel. 

Modeling an exercise also has an advantage in that piles of supplies can be neat and tidy, yet with troops running and jumping (and similar knees-bent advancing behaviors) all with various clumps of officers standing about and watching.

Good dio fodder too, in that the Germans had already identified that they needed estuaries, places where streams cut across the beaches to give places where the barges could be grounded and unloaded from over the side--front-ramped boats just not being that common an item in Europe.

Yes Ive noticed that these craft look ad hoc in nature, 
 http://www.verlindenonline.com/store/images/2369.jpg

This is the cargo barge I want to get, I was thinking of building up the side walls so that I could make it almost like a troop transport.

This is the regular barge, I want to make this also a troop carrier. For the most part this i what Im working with, or plan on working with, I also want to get the German soldiers with the rubber boat, I was thinking of putting them in the cargo boat, as if they were going to disembark from it. 

The German military for the most part requisitioned French civilian craft and modified these by cutting them down in front so that they could be off-loaded via a ramp that was added by Germna Engineers...So their invasion fleet was a motley hodge-podge of various sizes and shapes of craft.  I'm not even aware that there was ever a "military version" of a landing craft that existed for the Germans...do you have a pic of the Verlinden craft in question...