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Making Furled Sails...

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  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Making Furled Sails...
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, May 1, 2012 8:51 AM

Hi Guys!
So, I've got the standing rigging done on the Revell 1:150 Vasa, and now I'm looking at sail options.  I don't want to use the Vac Formed ones, but I don't have any experience with making my own stuff.

It was suggested to me by Warshipguy to make furled sails out of tissue paper, painted, glue-sealed, and rolled up to look like furled sails.  I like the sound of it....

Anyone have something to add to this suggestion?  Any more specific advice would be great!!!  Maybe I just need to find some pics online...

Also, I'm already looking ahead to consider my next kit....but I can't think of what to do!!  I want to build something a little bigger (around 30" when complete)....with good detail, decent instructions (since I'm still new to ships!), and some character!  I like using the Vasa as a subject because there's an interesting story of it's first *voyage*.....For any who are interested, here is a link to my (public view) Facebook Album of the Vasa Build....got some new pics of the standing rig posted last night...

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150652386816312.389965.582946311&type=3

 

Anyway, Thanks in advance!

David

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  • Member since
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  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Tuesday, May 1, 2012 9:00 AM

I wouldn't roll them.  Furled sails on old ships were gathered- sort of folded,  Rolling is only done on modern sailing vessels.  However, that doesn't negate the idea of tissue sails. I used a fine cloth on my Heller Reale de France galley, but that was 1:60 scale.  Only two sails and it was a lot of work. I would not recommend cloth on something as small as 150. It is amazing what you can do with tissue, especially facial tissue such as Kleenex.  I have seen that stuff used for many modeling parts such as tarps, awnings, etc.  One technique is to wet it with dilute white glue, then folding and forming (very gently, of course).  Should work for furled sails, but I have never done it.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, May 1, 2012 9:07 AM

Thanks, Don!
I was thinking I could maybe cut some sheets of tissue to the appropriate width for each yard, then  maybe airbrush them a *darker* light tan, then dilute some Elmer's into a spray bottle, give them a good spritz, gather them into shape, let dry, then airbrush again with a *lighter* light tan for some texture....

Then I guess they are lashed (??) to the yards at intervals across the length??

Just a brainstorm....I tend to be apprehensive about just trying things out on a kit, without being sure I can *undo* it if it becomes a disaster, you know?

Thanks again!

David

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  • Member since
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  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, May 1, 2012 9:28 AM

One nice thing about using tissue is that you can get it in various colors such as light tan, off-white, etc.  Many people assume that sails were/are white but they seldom were. I also use the term "rolled" advisedly. Don is absolutely correct; sails were furled.

I also LIGHTLY airbrush mine with watercolors to provide shading, wear, etc. Then, I paint them in diluted white glue as well to stiffen them into shape.  Don't be apprehensive about trying this technique; tissue is cheap.

Bill

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, May 1, 2012 10:31 AM

I'm excited to try it out!  The masts are looking kinda bare with nothing on them , so I think Furled sails are the way to go.  BTW, Bill, for all I know, you didn't even use the word *rolled*...I may have just come up with it on my own, but I deifnitely imagined *gathering* them up instead of actually rolling them into a tube....

Say, do you use a brush to apply the dilute glue?  Here's a crazy idea: Tinting the dilute glue with water and some acrylic paint?  Or is that obvious?

I'll prbably stop by the craft store on my way home from work today, see what I can find for tissue, and get to experimenting!!  Fun Stuff!

Thanks again!

David

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  • Member since
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  • From: Union, Maine
Posted by Jerome Morris on Tuesday, May 1, 2012 11:54 AM

David, I used silkspan for the sails on Danmark. Bought the silkspan at the fabric store.[View:/themes/fsm/utility/:550:0]

  • Member since
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  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, May 1, 2012 12:14 PM

That's a great ship!  And nice composition of the photo, too!

I realize that I definitely need to find some pics to help me visualize how to do the furled sails....

Thanks a bunch!

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

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  • Member since
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  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Wednesday, May 2, 2012 8:27 AM

So I tried my hand at making  a furled sail from tissue paper....I think my technique leaves something to be desired!  I guess I'll keep practicing and see if I can get some different results....  :)

Truth is, I'm not sure how it's *supposed* to look....

Also, for anyone reading this, am I wrong in thinking that the knots tied in the riggin thread are way too big?  1:150 scale, and when I tie a couple of lines to a rigging block, the knots look big and distracting....is this to be expected for such a small scale??  Or should I try some *secret* way of hiding/eliminating knots?  I'm looking to find a larger scale kit to build next (around 1:100), but it seems like there's little in the way of selection, unless I spend 300 dollars on a Big Heller Soleil Royale or Victory....I guess there's always the Revell Connie.....although, that kit seems like it's almost cliche to build! haha

I'll end the rambling now!

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

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  • Member since
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  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Wednesday, May 2, 2012 8:42 AM

David_K

Also, for anyone reading this, am I wrong in thinking that the knots tied in the riggin thread are way too big?  1:150 scale, and when I tie a couple of lines to a rigging block, the knots look big and distracting....is this to be expected for such a small scale??  Or should I try some *secret* way of hiding/eliminating knots?  I'm looking to find a larger scale kit to build next (around 1:100), but it seems like there's little in the way of selection, unless I spend 300 dollars on a Big Heller Soleil Royale or Victory....I guess there's always the Revell Connie.....although, that kit seems like it's almost cliche to build! haha

Yes, in 150 scale knots can appear too large, but I have done a number of 1:196 scale models and the secret to small knots is small thread.  The smaller the scale, the harder it is to find fine enough thread.  One problem these days is the drop of of interest in sewing as a hobby.  Thus the craft stores like Michaels and JoAnns to not carry  a very good selection of threads any more (maybe less being manufactured too, but someone who works in the store mentioned this to me about the poor availability of sizes).

I now find I can get better and finer thread from model ship suppliers like ME and Bluejacket. It is a pain to have to order thread mailorder when I need some in a hurry, but that is the way the world is today.  Also, ME gives the diameter of threads in its catalog. I have never been able to understand thread sizes looking at the spools in a sewing/craft store :-(

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    January 2006
  • From: Sarasota, FL
Posted by RedCorvette on Wednesday, May 2, 2012 9:18 AM

Just to add a couple of things:

I like using silkspan for furled sails for smaller scales and use sailcloth material from Model Expo for larger scale ships.

If you're going to furl a sail, don't start with a full size sail.  Make it 1/2 to 2/3 the size of the sail.  That way the furled sail won't end up being too bulky.

On a square-rigged ship the yards should be lowered if the sails are furled.

Mark

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  • Member since
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  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Wednesday, May 2, 2012 2:13 PM

If you plan to use paper, then use a fine parchment or resume paper.  And like was said, do not try to furl the entire size of the sail, but cut the area in half and then into a triangle. In an accordion fashion, fold the sail up to the yard.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Wednesday, May 2, 2012 2:45 PM

Thanks a bunch, guys!  It's great to have so much input on the various methods for construction!!!!

David

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  • Member since
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  • From: San Diego
Posted by jgonzales on Thursday, May 3, 2012 5:32 PM

Hi all,

my favorite post on this topic:

/forums/p/22090/216388.aspx#216388

Hope you find it helpful.

Jose Gonzales San Diego, CA
  • Member since
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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, May 4, 2012 7:58 PM

Here's another thread that may be of interest:  /forums/t/33775.aspx?PageIndex=1 .  It covers much of the same ground as the one to which Mr. Gonzales kindly linked us, but in more detail.  Unfortunatly the links to Drydock Models and the website established by our former fellow Forum member MichelVRTG don't work any more.

I think the Wasa would be a fine candidate for the furled sail treatment.  After all, she only had her sails set for something less than an hour before....

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, May 4, 2012 8:41 PM

Thanks!  Being new to ship modeling, I find myself scouring the internet for all available info from forums/kit build sites, etc., and soaking it up like sponge!

I agree about the Wasa being an appropriate subject....I will mention that I have the yards set at the *normal* location on the masts, I know they're supposed to be lowered, but details like that don't really concern me at this point... :) And I like that the yards have a nice little Tab to lock into, I'm confident they wil stay put!

My real attraction to building the Wasa was the interesting (and tragic) story of her life...plus, the ship itself is very cool and of a dramatic design that I find beautiful. I guess I like the look of the really old ships the best.  I just purchased a 1965 (?) original release of the Revell Golden Hind kit today....can't wait for it to arrive!  And I like the design of that vessel as well...I understand that kit is regarded as one of Revell's best offerings!  Shame that the availability of quality subjects/kits is limited, but I guess waning popularity has resulted in a drought of the market....such is the way of commercialism, I suppose.  How fortunate that Revell just released their Wasa so recently!!  Maybe there's a new trend coming? 

Anyway, I'd like to express my gratitude again for all the advice, in this and the various other threads I've posted/read.  If not for the guidance of experienced modelers, I'm quite sure I'd have made a few mistakes already, whether they be construction techniques, or most obviously, the purchase of kits that  I would regret....Now I have a *wish list* of a several kits that I hope to build, thanks to the suggestion and review of my esteemed "peers"....

Cheers,

David

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     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Thursday, May 10, 2012 8:25 AM

To Whom it may concern:

Well, I've reached the point in the rigging installation where I feel it's time to begin constructing and attaching the *furled sails* on my Wasa.  The next step (according to the instructions) includes a lot of running rigging on and around the yards, and I believe it will become too crowded in the area, so I guess it's sail-making time!

I'm going to paint some of the tissue with a dark tan, and stain some tissue with coffee.  The best effect of these two methods will progress to the second round: Cutting them out (smaller than the actual sails) and brushing them with diluted Elmer's. If that goes well, then furling will follow.  But that's where I lose my confidence.  I tried a few times with some experimental sections of tissue, but it always ends up looking.....funny, I guess.  I need to better understand the necessary shape of the *bundles*...

Tonight I'm going to give it a try again, and see what I can come up with!

 

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

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  • Member since
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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, May 10, 2012 12:43 PM

David_K

To Whom it may concern:

Well, I've reached the point in the rigging installation where I feel it's time to begin constructing and attaching the *furled sails* on my Wasa.  The next step (according to the instructions) includes a lot of running rigging on and around the yards, and I believe it will become too crowded in the area, so I guess it's sail-making time!

I'm going to paint some of the tissue with a dark tan, and stain some tissue with coffee.  The best effect of these two methods will progress to the second round: Cutting them out (smaller than the actual sails) and brushing them with diluted Elmer's. If that goes well, then furling will follow.  But that's where I lose my confidence.  I tried a few times with some experimental sections of tissue, but it always ends up looking.....funny, I guess.  I need to better understand the necessary shape of the *bundles*...

Tonight I'm going to give it a try again, and see what I can come up with!

 

I try hard to avoid offering "advice" on this forum - much less on pronouncing techniques "right" or "wrong."  But in this case I feel obliged to make an exception.  Never, never dye fabric, paper or anything else with tea or coffee!  Two reasons:  (1) it darkens with age - and I mean really darkens, within a few months or a year.  (2) Tea and coffee both contain tannic acid, which literally eats fabric.  (I'm not sure about paper, but  I find it hard to believe tea or coffee would do it any good.)  Believe me, I speak from hard-earned experience.  I once restored an old model whose linen sails had been dyed with tea.  They were an extremely dark brown, and literally fell apart in my hands. 

I can also assert on the basis of experience that the technique I described in one of those older posts (i.e., painting silkspan with a mixture of acrylic paint and white glue) works - and is extremely easy to do.  My model of the frigate Hancock, which is shown in my avatar, has furled sails made in that manner; the model is almost thirty years old now, and looks as good as new.

Another point to think about:  the Wasa, by definition, never had any sails other than brand new ones.  The natural color of sailcloth was a slightly beige-ish off white.  My color of preference for furled sails is something like Polly-scale's "New Concrete."  You can also choose from about a dozen appropriate shades - and spend a lot less money - if you go to a craft store and peruse its assortment of acrylic "craft paints."  I've never tried the "paint and Elmer's" trick with them, but I strongly suspect it would work fine.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
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  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Thursday, May 10, 2012 1:22 PM

JTilley-

I appreciate your input, whether you consider it to be advice, or guidelines, or just subjective observation....Understanding my limited knowledge and experience within the realm of model shipbuilding, I tend to absorb every bit of info I can, try to ruminate upon it all, and make my attempts based on what I think will work, what I think I can do, and what will offer the most pleasing end result...hopefully in some kind of balanced compromise.

I read in a couple of places about the *tea-or-coffee* dipping technique, and the pics I saw made it seem vastly superior to "plain' ol' vacuum-formed sails.  So I considered it.  But now I've learned of the potential damage the Tannic acids can have on the material, as well as the inherent darkening over time, which I care to avoid!  I am now persuaded against the Coffee Dip. 

Regarding your previous response and direction toward a past post on the subject, I did read it, and I will follow the described technique of Framing the paper, Brushing it with tinted and thinned glue, and then Furling it to my best interpretation of a sail.  One aspect of your process is beyond me...it sounded as if you hung the *wet* sail on the yard with all accompanying rigging line attached, and literally Furled it by manipulating the appropriate cordage.  My ship isn't fully rigged, and I think I'm still below the level of functioning running rigging  :)  Is it enough to simply *bunch up* the sails, or roll them in a loose accordion fashion,  and then attach them to the yard?  Then I thought I would lash them to the yard with a spiraled length of tan thread....

Als, it did occur to me this morning about the Wasa having been outfitted with new sails, never having the chance to become dingy....so I certainly won't have to concern myself with reproducing an aged look to them....but I still wonder if some aspect of coloring will help to create the proper shading effect in terms of scale?  My first couple of tries with the furled sails (with no paint, just tan tissue paper and dilute glue) lacked a certain depth of color in the crevices and so forth....maybe a light drybrush for highlights?  Or a quick airbrush overspray?  I think a wash would spell disaster due to the absorbency of the paper...

Anyway, now I'm rambling again!  Sorry   Smile

David

 

 

 

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  • Member since
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  • From: Union, Maine
Posted by Jerome Morris on Thursday, May 10, 2012 3:10 PM

I've also been reading with interest as I've hung furled sails on a large model of Danmark (billings)

 Anyway. The elmers glue will work just have a small paint brush and some water handy, so that you'll be able to smooth out things once the sails are in place.

Any painting would want to be very lightly done  so the color(s)  doesn't get to dark.

I can also say that the vacu sails will work fine, as long as your very good with a paint brush and paint washes.

 I'd seen a model with very well done vacu sails. It looked perfect. The guy had a touch for aging.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, May 10, 2012 9:01 PM

David_K

JTilley-

I appreciate your input, whether you consider it to be advice, or guidelines, or just subjective observation....Understanding my limited knowledge and experience within the realm of model shipbuilding, I tend to absorb every bit of info I can, try to ruminate upon it all, and make my attempts based on what I think will work, what I think I can do, and what will offer the most pleasing end result...hopefully in some kind of balanced compromise.

I read in a couple of places about the *tea-or-coffee* dipping technique, and the pics I saw made it seem vastly superior to "plain' ol' vacuum-formed sails.  So I considered it.  But now I've learned of the potential damage the Tannic acids can have on the material, as well as the inherent darkening over time, which I care to avoid!  I am now persuaded against the Coffee Dip. 

Regarding your previous response and direction toward a past post on the subject, I did read it, and I will follow the described technique of Framing the paper, Brushing it with tinted and thinned glue, and then Furling it to my best interpretation of a sail.  One aspect of your process is beyond me...it sounded as if you hung the *wet* sail on the yard with all accompanying rigging line attached, and literally Furled it by manipulating the appropriate cordage.  My ship isn't fully rigged, and I think I'm still below the level of functioning running rigging  :)  Is it enough to simply *bunch up* the sails, or roll them in a loose accordion fashion,  and then attach them to the yard?  Then I thought I would lash them to the yard with a spiraled length of tan thread....

Als, it did occur to me this morning about the Wasa having been outfitted with new sails, never having the chance to become dingy....so I certainly won't have to concern myself with reproducing an aged look to them....but I still wonder if some aspect of coloring will help to create the proper shading effect in terms of scale?  My first couple of tries with the furled sails (with no paint, just tan tissue paper and dilute glue) lacked a certain depth of color in the crevices and so forth....maybe a light drybrush for highlights?  Or a quick airbrush overspray?  I think a wash would spell disaster due to the absorbency of the paper...

Anyway, now I'm rambling again!  Sorry   Smile

David

 

 

 

My personal experience suggests that, though the paint/glue ratio isn't critical, 50/50 is about right.  Remember that the white color of the glue is irrelevant; the glue dries transparent.  The procedure I generally use is:  1.  Stretch the tissue over the frame.  (That is crucial.  So is the use of tough tissue - preferably silkspan.)  2.  Apply the paint/glue mixture.  (I usually use a cheap styrofoam brush.)  3.  let the sheet of paper dry.  4.  Lay out the shape of the sail with a pencil.  5.  Add the boltrope.  6.  Fasten the sail to the yard, using fine thread and the smallest needle you can find.  7.  Add whatever lines you intend to rig to the sail (sheets, clewlines, leechlines, buntlines, etc.).  8.  Touch the sail with a small brush dipped in water.  That will make the sail flexible, but won't affect the color.  9.  Furl the sail to the yard with the gaskets - two to four long, light lines that go around the sail and yard in a spiral.

Another good trick:  rig as much of the gear, including the sail, to the yard before mounting the yard to the model.  Attach the yard temorarily to a dowel and clamp the dowel in a vise.  Attach the sail and as much rigging as possible, then secure the yard to the mast.  (People sometimes wonder how experienced ship modelers manage to fuss over all those strings without breaking them or snarling them up.  Answer:  the modeler does as much of the rigging as possible off the model.)

I certainly won't argue with any modeler who, whether due to lack of experience, poor eyesight, or whatever, decides to leave some (or all) of the running rigging off a 1/150-scale model.  It does take some practice, and if you don't have excellent close-up vision (like I used to have, but don't any more),  it's likely to be an exercise in frustration.

I would venture to suggest that it might be a good idea to mount the yards in their lowered positions if you intend to put furled sails on them. Two reasons.  One - the yards would rarely if ever be raised with the sails furled on them.  Two - in the sixteenth century it was customary to furl the topsails (the second ones from the bottom) in a rather distinctive way.  The lower corners of the topsail would be gathered in toward the middle of the yard and lashed up into a big vertical bundle, which was then lashed to the heel of the topmast.  If all this jargon is a problem I strongly recommend R.C. Anderson's The Rigging of Ships in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast, a highly informative little book that, in the Norton paperback edition, is quite affordable.

Hope that helps.  Good luck.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Thursday, May 10, 2012 10:20 PM

Well, my first attempt to install homemade furled sails is complete.  I'm actually not very impressed with my work.

JTilley, I can absolutely understand the reasoning for preassembling masts, yards, and rigging as much as possible OFF the model!  I now realize that following the order of the inlcluded instruction sheet is a dangerous game!  As I learn more and begin to feel more comfortable in my abilities, I plan to totally *deconstruct* the instructions and rewrite them in a logical fashion....  :)

As far as the sails go, I feel a big part of my problem is that I got impatient, and instead of abandoning the trial when I saw things going south, I persevered.  They don't look BAD bad (in my opinion), but in comparison with the rest of the ship, and my success with other areas of it, they are lacking.  Just a little too uneven, and the texture doesn't seem right.  I think for the next furled sail attempt, I'll try the Silkspan material, and also do more of the installation with the masts OFF the kit, with much less obstruction!  Retrospective!

Also, the yards are up.  I know, I know, it's heresy.  Just out of curiosity, when altering the yard placement of a kit which is intended for them to be raised, how does one actually attach them to a lower part of the mast?  Is it a matter of modifying parts, adding notches and tabs, etc.?

My preferred method for sharing pics on Finescale is to just place a link to my facebook album, which is public.  If anyone reading this has a facebook account, feel free to visit this page to see pics of the Vasa build...the last 5 pictures are of some of the new sails....I'd love any feedback, but I already know some of what I'm trying next time!  Be warned- the color scheme is not authentic! haha

http://www.facebook.com/?ref=tn_tnmn#!/media/set/?set=a.10150652386816312.389965.582946311&type=1

David

 

 

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     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

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  • Member since
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  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Friday, May 11, 2012 1:32 AM

The trick of rigging the yards before attaching them to the mast was first made known to me in the Revell 1/96 Constitution.

David you've come on strong and avid. Get that kit. It sets the bar in several ways. The design of the kit trumped all kinds of nonsense that came before and after, like yards molded to masts and sails molded to yards.

Seems obvious now but it wasn't then.

If I were modeling Wasa I would probably choose to not include sails at all.

My thinking is to make her in the image of her designers. 

If under sail, I would guess she was under main sail only as Stockholm Harbor and her build site are very confined. In fact so much so, that I wonder that she wasn't being what the British quaintly called being "warped" out.

In other words, it's pretty unlikely that the Captain would have either set all of his sails or even rigged them for the procession out of the harbor.

OK I Admit. I don't like sails on ship models.

Because sails need crews. Crews need an era. An era speaks to weathering. 

  • Member since
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  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Friday, May 11, 2012 1:41 AM

In fact thinking about it a little bit more, I propose the question.

Did the designer of the Revell  1/96 Constitution create a wooden ship model in plastic?

I say yes.

Certainly not the hull or the decks but I'd submit that the rigging and the sailing set up was a sincere attempt to give the modeler a complete experience in a major ship project, in simple fashion.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, May 11, 2012 8:56 AM

I've been on the fence about the Big Connie since I first decided to try out ship modeling.  Not to say it's been a long time (only a few months, rather!), but I was looking at it before I bought my first kit, the BHR. And she's been on my wish list ever since.  I've read multiple reviews/threads about the kit, and checked out a couple build reviews....and from what I've gathered, the Revell 1/96 Constitution is considered by many to be one of the best kits ever.  And it seems like a good way for a ship modeler to test his mettle.  Almost like "If you're going to take it seriously, see how you like this!"  Plus, that is one BIG kit.  It would certainly be an impressive peice.  Amazon has it for about 60 bucks right now, but the price fluctuates, and I've been keeping an eye on it....

Some people have said the Connie kit is so old, that many parts could be warped, and that a lot of time must be spent clearing the parts of flash....I despise flash.  Other people have said their parts were in great shape. It seems like a crap-shoot when opening the box, to find out whether you got a good manufacturing run, or a dog.  What was the condition of your Connie?  Did you have to make many modifications/repairs?

The only other  concerns I have about building it are 1) the cost of a display case....it's hard to believe how much a display case costs....I couldn't find anything for less than 300-400 dollars!  Sheesh!  and 2) I've heard a lot about customization and replacing parts with scratchbuilt/aftermarket parts....does the Connie work well "out of the box?"...or is it necessary to buy new blocks and eyes, and make masts out of real wood?  I just keep going back to whether or not I'm ready, you know?? 

Bottom line is this:  I will build the 1/96 Revell Constitution, it's just a matter of time.  Your message of encouragement helped push me in the right direction....I just need to get it in my stash, and that's the first step!

My Golden Hind should arrive today!  And I figure I've got about a week or so left with the Wasa....and then of course, there's that Zvezda Swan I've been hearing about....don't get me started on that! I REALLY like the style of the Galleons, if I'm using the term correctly.....that's why I dig the Wasa, the Hind, and that Black Swan so much.....but I do want to build a good-sized, good quality kit....

I also have the little (1/196) Revell Constitution in my closet, but I'm not very interested in it..  I only bought it because it was a good deal, and I felt like I might want to *experiment* with it someday...you know, make new parts, test out some weathering/washes on it....maybe even try setting vacuum formed sails....even though I also have reservations about sails on a kit...

So many ships....where to go next??

Thanks!

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, May 12, 2012 11:39 AM

David_K

Well, my first attempt to install homemade furled sails is complete.  I'm actually not very impressed with my work.

JTilley, I can absolutely understand the reasoning for preassembling masts, yards, and rigging as much as possible OFF the model!  I now realize that following the order of the inlcluded instruction sheet is a dangerous game!  As I learn more and begin to feel more comfortable in my abilities, I plan to totally *deconstruct* the instructions and rewrite them in a logical fashion....  :)

As far as the sails go, I feel a big part of my problem is that I got impatient, and instead of abandoning the trial when I saw things going south, I persevered.  They don't look BAD bad (in my opinion), but in comparison with the rest of the ship, and my success with other areas of it, they are lacking.  Just a little too uneven, and the texture doesn't seem right.  I think for the next furled sail attempt, I'll try the Silkspan material, and also do more of the installation with the masts OFF the kit, with much less obstruction!  Retrospective!

Also, the yards are up.  I know, I know, it's heresy.  Just out of curiosity, when altering the yard placement of a kit which is intended for them to be raised, how does one actually attach them to a lower part of the mast?  Is it a matter of modifying parts, adding notches and tabs, etc.?

My preferred method for sharing pics on Finescale is to just place a link to my facebook album, which is public.  If anyone reading this has a facebook account, feel free to visit this page to see pics of the Vasa build...the last 5 pictures are of some of the new sails....I'd love any feedback, but I already know some of what I'm trying next time!  Be warned- the color scheme is not authentic! haha

http://www.facebook.com/?ref=tn_tnmn#!/media/set/?set=a.10150652386816312.389965.582946311&type=1

David

 

 

I'm not on Facebook (and, in view of the experiences my kids have had with it, I don't particularly want to be), so I'm afraid I can't see the photos David posted.  Regarding the shifting of yard positions - it all depends on how accurate and detailed you want the finished model to be.  In a real seventeenth-century ship, the yards would be fastened to the masts by gadgets called parrals (or parrels).  A parral is a pretty simple apparatus consisting of ropes, ribs, and trucks (wood rollers) that lets the yard swing around the mast and slide up and down it.  My recollection is that the old Airfix Wasa has decent representations of the parrals mollded in with the masts; I have no idea about the Revell one.  Making a set of parrals to scale isn't particularly difficult (the aforementioned book by Dr. Anderson shows just how to do it), but it gets trickier as the scale gets smaller. 

A simplified alternative is to pin the yard to the mast in the right place with a piece of fine wire.  (You've got a set of small drill bits and a pin vise - right?)  Add a drop of CA adhesive, and the result will look fine except at very close range.

I'll take the liberty to offer an opinion that differs from that of several Forum friends.  I don't recommend the big Revell Constitution to newcomers.  I really like the kit, but to do even a reasonable "out of the box" job on it takes a huge amount of time.  I've never heard of anybody doing it in much less than a year.  Newcomers improve fast; by the time you get to the mizzen mast you'll think the work you did on the foremast  isn't good enough.  That's one big reason why (as I learned firsthand when I was working my way through grad school in a hobby shop) so few of the big, plastic sailing ship kits ever get finished.

I've been preaching for years that the best way to get started in sailing ship modeling is with relatively small ships in relatively large scales.  Unfortunately few such plastic kits are available at the moment.  The Revell Golden Hind (one of my all-time favorites) isn't bad for that purpose.  Neither is the old Revell yacht America - if you can find one.  An excellent kit that is currently on the market is the Revell Viking ship - a beautiful representation of the real Gokstad ship.  Another, if you aren't too bothered by the fact that it's based on now-outdated research, is the Revell Santa Maria

Many years ago, Pyro made a series of really nice, basic ship kits that were, I think, just about ideal for newcomers:  the revenue cutter Roger B. Taney (AKA "Independence War Schooner"), the fishing schooner Gertrude L. Thebaud (AKA "American Cup Racer"), and the revenue cutter Harriet Lane (AKA "Civil War Blockade Runner").   For a long time they were sold under the Lifelike label, and most recently by Lindberg.  They can still be found on hobby shop shelves, at modelers' conventions, and on E-bay.  Any of those kits, with the help of a good book or two, can be turned into a fine model of a handsome, important ship in a few weeks.  In the process, the modeler will learn about the basics of sailing ship construction and rigging, develop the necessary skills - so his next model will be better.  To my mind, that makes a lot more sense than shelling out a big wad on a big kit, starting it, getting discouraged at the amount of repetition, getting frustrated when cannon number 50 looks so much better than cannon number 1, and finally sticking the whole thing on a closet shelf to be forgotten about - and never trying a sailing ship again.

Those are personal opinions, with which anybody is, of course, free to disagree.  But I will say that I've never known anybody to regret starting with one of those kits - and  I know the vast majority of the big Constitution, Cutty Sark, Victory, and Soleil Royal kits I sold never got built.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Kincheloe Michigan
Posted by Mikeym_us on Saturday, May 12, 2012 4:21 PM

John I believe the Lindbergh Constellation can be a good kit for those learning to rig sailing ships.

jtilley

 David_K:

Well, my first attempt to install homemade furled sails is complete.  I'm actually not very impressed with my work.

JTilley, I can absolutely understand the reasoning for preassembling masts, yards, and rigging as much as possible OFF the model!  I now realize that following the order of the inlcluded instruction sheet is a dangerous game!  As I learn more and begin to feel more comfortable in my abilities, I plan to totally *deconstruct* the instructions and rewrite them in a logical fashion....  :)

As far as the sails go, I feel a big part of my problem is that I got impatient, and instead of abandoning the trial when I saw things going south, I persevered.  They don't look BAD bad (in my opinion), but in comparison with the rest of the ship, and my success with other areas of it, they are lacking.  Just a little too uneven, and the texture doesn't seem right.  I think for the next furled sail attempt, I'll try the Silkspan material, and also do more of the installation with the masts OFF the kit, with much less obstruction!  Retrospective!

Also, the yards are up.  I know, I know, it's heresy.  Just out of curiosity, when altering the yard placement of a kit which is intended for them to be raised, how does one actually attach them to a lower part of the mast?  Is it a matter of modifying parts, adding notches and tabs, etc.?

My preferred method for sharing pics on Finescale is to just place a link to my facebook album, which is public.  If anyone reading this has a facebook account, feel free to visit this page to see pics of the Vasa build...the last 5 pictures are of some of the new sails....I'd love any feedback, but I already know some of what I'm trying next time!  Be warned- the color scheme is not authentic! haha

http://www.facebook.com/?ref=tn_tnmn#!/media/set/?set=a.10150652386816312.389965.582946311&type=1

David

 

 

 

I'm not on Facebook (and, in view of the experiences my kids have had with it, I don't particularly want to be), so I'm afraid I can't see the photos David posted.  Regarding the shifting of yard positions - it all depends on how accurate and detailed you want the finished model to be.  In a real seventeenth-century ship, the yards would be fastened to the masts by gadgets called parrals (or parrels).  A parral is a pretty simple apparatus consisting of ropes, ribs, and trucks (wood rollers) that lets the yard swing around the mast and slide up and down it.  My recollection is that the old Airfix Wasa has decent representations of the parrals mollded in with the masts; I have no idea about the Revell one.  Making a set of parrals to scale isn't particularly difficult (the aforementioned book by Dr. Anderson shows just how to do it), but it gets trickier as the scale gets smaller. 

A simplified alternative is to pin the yard to the mast in the right place with a piece of fine wire.  (You've got a set of small drill bits and a pin vise - right?)  Add a drop of CA adhesive, and the result will look fine except at very close range.

I'll take the liberty to offer an opinion that differs from that of several Forum friends.  I don't recommend the big Revell Constitution to newcomers.  I really like the kit, but to do even a reasonable "out of the box" job on it takes a huge amount of time.  I've never heard of anybody doing it in much less than a year.  Newcomers improve fast; by the time you get to the mizzen mast you'll think the work you did on the foremast  isn't good enough.  That's one big reason why (as I learned firsthand when I was working my way through grad school in a hobby shop) so few of the big, plastic sailing ship kits ever get finished.

I've been preaching for years that the best way to get started in sailing ship modeling is with relatively small ships in relatively large scales.  Unfortunately few such plastic kits are available at the moment.  The Revell Golden Hind (one of my all-time favorites) isn't bad for that purpose.  Neither is the old Revell yacht America - if you can find one.  An excellent kit that is currently on the market is the Revell Viking ship - a beautiful representation of the real Gokstad ship.  Another, if you aren't too bothered by the fact that it's based on now-outdated research, is the Revell Santa Maria

Many years ago, Pyro made a series of really nice, basic ship kits that were, I think, just about ideal for newcomers:  the revenue cutter Roger B. Taney (AKA "Independence War Schooner"), the fishing schooner Gertrude L. Thebaud (AKA "American Cup Racer"), and the revenue cutter Harriet Lane (AKA "Civil War Blockade Runner").   For a long time they were sold under the Lifelike label, and most recently by Lindberg.  They can still be found on hobby shop shelves, at modelers' conventions, and on E-bay.  Any of those kits, with the help of a good book or two, can be turned into a fine model of a handsome, important ship in a few weeks.  In the process, the modeler will learn about the basics of sailing ship construction and rigging, develop the necessary skills - so his next model will be better.  To my mind, that makes a lot more sense than shelling out a big wad on a big kit, starting it, getting discouraged at the amount of repetition, getting frustrated when cannon number 50 looks so much better than cannon number 1, and finally sticking the whole thing on a closet shelf to be forgotten about - and never trying a sailing ship again.

Those are personal opinions, with which anybody is, of course, free to disagree.  But I will say that I've never known anybody to regret starting with one of those kits - and  I know the vast majority of the big Constitution, Cutty Sark, Victory, and Soleil Royal kits I sold never got built.

On the workbench: Dragon 1/350 scale Ticonderoga class USS BunkerHill 1/720 scale Italeri USS Harry S. Truman 1/72 scale Encore Yak-6

The 71st Tactical Fighter Squadron the only Squadron to get an Air to Air kill and an Air to Ground kill in the same week with only a F-15   http://photobucket.com/albums/v332/Mikeym_us/

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, May 12, 2012 6:06 PM

Thanks for the insight, JTilley.

I have back-and-forthed about the 96 constitution numerous times, and part of me wants to meet the challenge of it, while part of me knows I need to continue improving my skills and, in large part, my patience.  I can see how the repetition of building so many cannons could be frustrating, especially when, as you said, by the time I got halfway done, I would be proficient and would probably want to go back and re-do the first half!  I don't want to burn myself out, and I probably should wait until I feel like I'm *really good* at building ships before I do something ambitious.  here's my dilemma:  I want each ship I build to be better, "cooler", more impressive, and more of a challenge than the previous one.  I'm nearing completion of the Vasa (more on that in a minute), and I'm having difficulty finding a subject that meets the aforementioned criteria.  I recieved my Original Release Revell Golden Hind yesterday, and after breaking open the cellophane, and examining the kit, I was a bit disappointed.  First off, it's pretty small.  Not a big deal, but I expected it to be a little more substantial (truthfully, I hoped to find a little extra elbow room for the running rigging...still wondering how anyone can get all their lines attached to the tiny belaying pins on some of these smaller-scale ships!).  Also, many of the parts are warped, and very flash-y, and the detail that you can tell SHOULD have been there seemed to be dulled somewhat.  Keeping in mind that I'm now working on a kit that was only released last year, and has, In my opinion, incredibly crisp detail and sharp lines...the GH just feels a little flat.  One thing to note: The little tin tube of glue that was packaged with the kit is still intact, and also seems to be still liquid inside!  Not that I'm going to use it, but I thought it was neat.  I expected it to be dried out.  I'll keep it as a novelty. :)  So, all that being said, I really hope the Golden Hind will end up looking as sweet as I want it to, but I'm slightly dubious. 

Anyhow, it's going to be my next build, and I'll do my best to make it shine!  I like the old-fashioned instructions...they actually describe the steps of assembly in paragraphs, and it's fun to look over the diagrams, although I've learned to take the order of assembly as suggestions, and now find myself looking for ways to improve the steps, and identify ways to make the build more efficient, and easier (pre-rigging masts, for example)...I also like the figures...in some ways, they are the best feature of the kit!  I need to learn to straighten warped parts, and the limited flash removel I've dealt with in the past has been easy to remove, many times after painting I would simply scrape it off and touch up with paint...but with this kit, I think I will have to remove most of the parts from their sprues, clean them up, and then paint them.  I generally like to leave many parts on their sprues when I break out the airbrush.  Sorry, rambling again!

I like the idea of drilling the yards and masts out and inserting a piece of wire to make them lowered....perfect solution!  And yes, I bought a pin vise set when I started the Wasa.  Needed it to drill out the dimples on the channel for the deadeyes...since I removed the Shroud-net to make thread shrouds, the deadeyes needed somwhere to fit into to hold them up, so I drilled each divot out to fit the *feet* of the deadeyes.....

I'd really like to share my pics with any interested persons here, I could use some sounding-off on my techniques, plus it would be nice to have some idea of how I'm doing!  I see a lot of the shortcomings of my work, but maybe that's just my nature...I'll see if I can find a way to post stuff up here directly....there must be a thread describing how to do it?

P.S. I- like the look of the Viking Ship from Revell....maybe I should put that in my wish list.

Thanks again, John Tilley, and everybody else!  I know many of you have been answering the same questions to *new guys* for a long time... your patience, advice, and knowledge is very valuable and much appreciated.

David

 

 

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, May 12, 2012 7:06 PM

Alright!  I figured out how to share some pics !

This one's from when I was still doing standing rigging...

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/574665_10150736900746312_582946311_9646900_1244751229_n:550:0]

Here's the hull after the basecoat and some flat red uppers...

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/532724_10150671997161312_582946311_9448760_370568777_n:550:0]

Here's the deck, pre-rigging...

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/522804_10150721105796312_582946311_9605419_87856635_n:550:0]

 

And, my attempt at furled sails...

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/521386_10150824964411312_582946311_9717626_1472412929_n:550:0]

I suppose I could put a link to the Flickr page, if anyone just wants to see them all....I just grabbed a handful of pics from my Facebook account and loaded them here...Keep in mind, this is only my second ship :)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8397735@N07/sets/72157629699156080/

 

 

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Kincheloe Michigan
Posted by Mikeym_us on Saturday, May 12, 2012 9:09 PM

What I see there while a good attempt is lacking something.

if you can remove the sails you can try again. For one thing the line that bind up furled sails is actually the same lines that the crew would use to tack the sails to the belaying pins when the sail is unfurled . I do believe that facial tissue is best used as it is softer than packing tissue and once folded and the lines wrapped around it and the yard would yield a more natural "fabric" sag and then you can use the diluted white glue wash to set the tissue so it can hold its shape.

David_K

Alright!  I figured out how to share some pics !

This one's from when I was still doing standing rigging...

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/:550:0]

Here's the hull after the basecoat and some flat red uppers...

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/:550:0]

Here's the deck, pre-rigging...

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/:550:0]

 

And, my attempt at furled sails...

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7086/7184870958_955bdf4bdc.jpg:550:0]

I suppose I could put a link to the Flickr page, if anyone just wants to see them all....I just grabbed a handful of pics from my Facebook account and loaded them here...Keep in mind, this is only my second ship :)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8397735@N07/sets/72157629699156080/

 

 

On the workbench: Dragon 1/350 scale Ticonderoga class USS BunkerHill 1/720 scale Italeri USS Harry S. Truman 1/72 scale Encore Yak-6

The 71st Tactical Fighter Squadron the only Squadron to get an Air to Air kill and an Air to Ground kill in the same week with only a F-15   http://photobucket.com/albums/v332/Mikeym_us/

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Kincheloe Michigan
Posted by Mikeym_us on Saturday, May 12, 2012 9:25 PM

in fact here is a site I found that shows people how to do furled sails on model ships.

http://modelshipwrightsdatabase.com/Articles/17FurledSails.htm

 

On the workbench: Dragon 1/350 scale Ticonderoga class USS BunkerHill 1/720 scale Italeri USS Harry S. Truman 1/72 scale Encore Yak-6

The 71st Tactical Fighter Squadron the only Squadron to get an Air to Air kill and an Air to Ground kill in the same week with only a F-15   http://photobucket.com/albums/v332/Mikeym_us/

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