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Paints for 1942 USS Enterprise

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  • Member since
    November 2005
Paints for 1942 USS Enterprise
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, February 9, 2004 4:27 PM
I was looking online trying to figure out what to paint my trumpter Hornet to Enterprise conversion. What colors would you recommend for the ship? Primarily the Hull and the flight deck. I'm looking at using model master paints. Thanks for any info!

Jon Halter
  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Virginia
Posted by Mike F6F on Monday, February 9, 2004 5:42 PM
Jon,

The Enterprise was painted in US Navy Measure 11 camouflage in 1942 through the middle of '43 when the ship returned to the US for a major overhaul.

Measure 11 called for all vertical surfaces to be painted in Sea Blue 5-S and the flight deck to be stained in a color matching Deck Blue 20-B paint. The non-wooden decks should be 20-B. The Sea Blue color is a medium blue that can photograph much lighter AND much darker in B&W than it really looked.

I used Model Master ACRYL marine paints for my Tamiya kit. They have the correct colors. I believe that the Model Master enamels list the colors too.

The blue pigments faded very quickly in the Pacific sun, the deck stain in particular. I'd have the Deck tan color ready if you plan to weather your model.

If you haven't found the USS Enterprise Association web site, www.cv6.org, give it a look. Lots of photos and a message board for modelers of the Big "E" too.

Enjoy your model,

Mike

Mike

 

"Grumman on a Navy Airplane is like Sterling on Silver."

  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Monday, February 9, 2004 11:09 PM
Sorry, have to interject...

Measure 11 was all but gone by early-1942 in favor of Measure 21, overall Navy Blue 5-N. Current research by myself, Alan Raven Dave Shadell, and Steve Wiper all seem to agree that Enterprise wore Measure 1 until May of 1942, at which time she painted into Measure 21.

She repainted in Measure 33/4a in late 1944, and back in to Measure 21 in early 1945.

Flight deck would be Norfolk 251 Stain, with 20-B on all other surfaces.

Jeff Herne
Modelwarships.com
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 9:15 AM
Jeff, Mike, thanks for your replies. I''ve decided to model the Enterprise as she appeared at Midway in June '42 that would be Measure 21? In your research Jeff, when was she painted to Measure 21? I'd like an idea of how long that "coat of paint" was on unitl Midway so I can weather it accordingly. Thanks for the info. I take it the Norfolk 251 Stain is grey in color right?

Thanks again for your help. It will be a while before I start painting but I want to order it all soon. Thanks again.

Jon Halter
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 11:05 AM
Jon,

She was painted into MS21 in May of '42, so her paint would be fresh at the time of Midway. Norfolk 251 Stain is very similar in appearance in tone to 20-B deck blue, but slightly more intense when freshly applied.

Jeff
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 4:44 PM
Thanks Jeff!
I will have to experiment with the deck to get the effect I want. I jsut don't want a solid blue deck but whatever weathering I do will have to be subtle and minor.
two more questions! How about the boats? where they painted overall Navy Blue too? and hat about the rubber life rafts on the sides of the ship? I have several Enterprise books but none of them really have good color reference.
Thanks again!

Jon Halter
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 4:53 PM
Measure 21 calls for EVERYTHING to be painted...here's the actual text from the Ships-2 Manual, June '42 Revision Supplement.


Measure 21
Navy Blue System
(Source: Ships-2 Rev. 2 June 1942)

Vertical Surfaces:

Navy Blue 5-N All Vertical surfaces without exception.

Horizontal Surfaces:

Horizontal surfaces, Deck Blue, 20-B.

Wood Decks.

Wood decks except on submarines and carriers shall be darkened to the color Deck Blue. Deck Blue paint shall be used in lieu of stain for this purpose.

Canvas Covers.

Canvas covers visible from the outside vessel are to be dyed a color corresponding to Deck Blue.

Notes:

The camouflage painting need not be exact or carried into corners. Small gear, wires, rigging, and areas permanently in shadow, as under boats, etc., need not be painted with the camouflage colors. There is no objection to exact or careful painting which may be desired for the sake of good appearance at close range.

All bright or shiny objects, no matter how insignificant, shall be painted, covered, or removed.

Glass windows shall be covered or removed, especially during the day in sunny weather, and at night when anticipating searchlight discovery. Insofar as conditions permit, similar precautions shall be taken on airport lenses.


  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Virginia
Posted by Mike F6F on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 6:07 PM
Jeff,

That's interesting. I went with the Enterprise Association web site for my colors. They list the ship as having been painted in Measure 1 until May of '42, when the ship was repainted in Measure 11 until the refit in the fall of '43. The ship went from 21 to the dazzle scheme from summer of '44 until December when she was repainted to Measure 21 again. What other sources are available?

Plus, I have another question for you. Both Yorktown and Hornet show small hull numbers on their bows during the period. Did Enterprise have a small "6" near the anchors at the same time?

Mike

Mike

 

"Grumman on a Navy Airplane is like Sterling on Silver."

  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 12:35 AM
Hi Mike,

By the time Enterprise painted out of her MS 1, scheme, MS11 had already been replaced with MS 21...

Here's Alan Raven's take on the issue (Alan is the formost warship camo expert, and a good friend, and my publisher)

Faced with the phasing out of the Dark Gray (in mid August of 1941), and with Sapphire Blue being unacceptable due to fading, the Pacific Fleet formally adopted Measure 11, Sea Blue, (formerly Measure 1A) in mid-September 1941, but allowed the Fleet to remain in Measure 1 Dark Gray for as long as paint stocks would allow. Wood decks were not to he painted with 20B Deck Blue, hut were left in their natural color until tests with 20-B were conducted. Fortunately, by late 1941 the new 5-N Navy Blue had become available in the Atlantic, used there in Measure 12. It was first applied to a Pacific ship in the first days of December. This was the destroyer FLUSSER which was painted overall in the new color, the scheme was named Measure 1C later in 1942 formalized as Measure 21.

In the Atlantic, Admiral King (like Kimmel) was unhappy with Sea Blue, primarily because of fading, and by it not being dark enough. He officially ended the use of Sea Blue in early November 1941, having formally replaced by 5-N Navy Blue, although Sea Blue continued in use on some vessels for many months until supplies of Navy Blue became available. Where Navy Blue was used in place of Sea Blue, Measure 12 became known as Measure 12A.

By September 1941 it was believed that some degree of disruption of a ship's course and identity might be achieved on Measure 12 camouflage if the straight dividing line between the Navy Blue and the Ocean Gray be broken up by extending the two colors into each other in splotches about 1/3 the area of a rectangle 12" high by 20" long. If this was done correctly, it would give a wavy line on cruisers and large vessels, and on destroyers with less than 12' freeboard, a splotched or dappled hull. On November 4th these instructions were issued in the Atlantic Fleet and ships soon began to show this revised scheme (Measure 12R) during the following month. The Pacific Fleet did not employ Measure 12 or its late 1941 revisions, preferring the solid tones of Measure 1, or 1B or 1C.

As far as the Asiatic Fleet was concerned not only did they not perform any experimentation but as late as November the fleet was still painted in the old #5 Navy Gray. So frustrated was Admiral Hart that in October he ordered the purchase of local commercial paint and proceeded to have a color produced that was midway between Sea Blue and Ocean Gray. He then had the ships painted in this completely unofficial tint, which he named "Cavite Blue". (end quote)

I have a memo from the Roberts Commission, #1491, dated December 16, 1941, as Pacific Fleet Confidential Notice 21CN-41, from CIC US Fleet, to all Pacific Fleet commanders re: the painting of ships.

1. By reference a. (BuShips Letter C-A10/S19, dated Oct. 15, 1941) the Bureau of Ships distributed the first revision of the Ships Camouflage Instructions (Ships-2), dated Sept., 1941.
2. New paint products, formula 5-U (base white) and 5-TM (tinting material) are under manufacture, and initial shipments have reached Navy Yard, Pearl Harbor, where they are in stock. **(this means that 5-N was available on December 16th, 1941)**
3. In accordance with paragraph 3 of reference a., the following measures of of revised Ships-2 are hereby placed in effect for ships of the Pacific Fleet:
a: Surface ships, less carriers, Measure 11, except that 'Navy Blue' formula 5-N will be used in place of Sea Blue Formula 5-S. Navy Blue formula 5-N is made from untinted white base (5-U), and by the addition of 15 pints of 5-TM, to 5 gallons of base.
b: Carriers - As in (a) above, excepting that flight decks shall continue to be painted in accordance with instructions issued by Commander Aircraft, Battle Force.
c: Submarines - Measure 9
4. Navy Blue formula 5-N has been specified instead of Sea Blue formula 5-S because preliminary observations indicate Sea Blue to be too light in color.
5. Inasmuch as supplies of new paint in this area are still limited (Dec. 1941), application Measure 11 is, for the present, restricted to those ships in need of complete repainting. Measure 5 false bow waves, and Type Concealment measures 6, 7 and 8 of old Ships-2 have proven valueless. Ships shall discontinue these, even before complete repainting is undertaken. Upon new paint products becoming available in quantity, instructions will be promulgated covering the general application of Measure 11. Experimental measures on Porter, Flusser, Lamson, Mahan, and Drayton shall remain effective until repainting is required.
6. Instance of attepts to attain improved appearance by adding varnish, linseed oil, or other ingredients not called for by the formula, or by rubbing down the exterior painted surfaces with linseed oil, have been noted. These practices produce glossy surfaces and increase specular reflection. They shall be discontinued.

Signed, W.W. Smith, Chief of Staff

So, in short, on Dec. 16th, the US Navy said to discontinue the use of 5-S in favor of 5-N, but they were still calling it Measure 11 until the March 1943 Revision II Supplement of Ships-2. Of course, Enterprise wore her MS1 until May of 1942, since she was at sea most of the time and couldn't be repainted. It seems highly unlikely that by May of '42, that she would have been repainted into a color that was discontinued in December of the previous year, especially when she was so vital to operations in the Pacific at that time, due to the shortage of carriers.

I can scan this memo and post it if you like. You can get a copy of this memo from the National Archives, the CINPAC file No. is A2-11/FF-12(2), S-19/(50), Serial 02050.

You can also reference the following:

BuShips ltr C-A10/S-19-(4) of Oct.15, 1941
Pacific Fleet Confidential Notice 15CN-41
BuShips Ltr. C-S19/(50) Serial 01593 of Oct.6, 1941

Hope this helps clear things up...

Jeff

  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 12:38 AM
Ya had to ask, didn't ya? :-)

J
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 8:57 AM
Gee Jeff, Thanks for the info! Seems like I came to the right place! One more question, For now, I've read souces that state the Enterprise did not have it's CXAM radar until after midway but the CV-6 website has a captioned picture dated may 1942 with CXAM-1 installed. http://www.cv6.org/noumea/default.asp?uri=detail/awo-img-z--1000084-d Do you know if this is accurate? Thanks again. I guess I'm going to have to stock up on blue paint!

Jon Halter
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:39 AM
Enterprise received her CXAM-1 prior to MIdway, sometime in May of 1942, most likely during her refit. On top of the CXAM is a cresent shaped antenna, which is a YF homing beacon, same type that was fitted to the Yorktown.

If you're modeling her at Midway, remember that she carried Mk 33 Fire Control Directors, but no Mk 4 Fire Control radar. She didn't receive MK 4 until sometime after Midway, but before Santa Cruz. In her 1943 refit, she would lose the MK 33 FCD in place of MK 37 FCD with MK 12 radar, the bridge was redesigned, and she lost her 1.1 cannon in favor of 40mm Bofors. She also lost her .50cal MG in favor of more 20mm mounts.

She also never carried her hull number on the bow.

I'll scan some photos and post them up shortly...

Jeff
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:07 AM
Thanks again Jeff... I think the CXAM-1 is visually more impressive for the model. My Natulis conversion kit comes with replacement fire control directors that look like they are MK 33s.
I thought by May 1942 Enterprise had already replaced her .50 cal with 20mm single mounts? Did she retain .50cals during the battle of Midway?

Thanks again,

Jon
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 11:11 AM
Jon,

Enterprise retained .50s until at least October of '42, judging from photos.

Here's a page I threw together...

http://www.njahof.org/temp/enterprise.htm

Hope this helps.

Jeff
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 11:54 AM
Thanks Jeff, awesome pictures. That will really help on my island detail. It seems like I've come to the right place for all my modelling questions. Thanks again for all your help.

Jon Halter
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 12:12 PM
Jeff, one moe question.. What is the book you used for reference? I'd like to add a copy to my library. I also notice in those pictures it seems like the 5" gun galleries were very rounded as opposed to the Trumpeter Hornet where those galleries are a little boxy.

Thanks again.
Jon
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 12:55 PM
Those photos were from the Classic Warships Pictorial on the Yorktown Class. While not the definitive history of the ships, it's a damn good reference because it covers what we as modelers need to know.

You can order it from Squadron, Pacific Front, White Ensign or Trident Hobbies.

The 5in gun galleries are different, as are the shape of the 20mm sponsons as well, especially on the starboard forward side if I remember correctly.

If you want real BIG copies of the those photos, email me at director -at- njahof.org and I'll send them, but you'll definitely need cable or DSL.

Jeff
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 1:00 PM
With regards to painting the flight deck, here's what I've done in the past on my carriers...

Spray the centerline and fantail of the deck with a light coat of a wood color, remember that the decks were pine (fir) and not teak. I basically spray areas that would see lots of activity. Then spray your deck stain color, but leave the high-traffic areas a bit thinner, allowing some of the tan color to show through. Paint your deck lines at this point.

Once that's done, lightly rub the area with an eraser, that'll wear the paint down even more. Finally, a wash of burnt umber or burnt sienna on the deck. Finally, a light overspray of the deck blue color again, very thin, almost a wash.

Leave areas that don't see much wear around the edges of the deck, etc. more blue than the rest...

Jeff
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 2:51 PM
Thanks again Jeff. Great ideas on the flight deck.. I was thinking about something similar but hadn't thought about using an earser. Since the ship is going to be mainly blue I'd like the deck to be as visually engaging as possible. That should do nicely.
Jon
  • Member since
    November 2003
Posted by richter111 on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 10:40 PM
I am converting my recently aquired Hornet to the Enterprise myself, Jeff your painting guide will prove invaluable, as well as your photos thanks
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 11:36 PM
Anytime guys...

Jeff
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 20, 2004 11:37 AM
richter111, Just curious, how do you plan on addressing the flight deck modification for your Enterprise. I may play with plastic cardstock and some scribing but it may be beyond my ability. And are you using the Natulis conversion Kit ( i am) or scratch building? If you didn't mind I'd look forward to hearing your progress on this project.

Jon Halter
  • Member since
    November 2003
Posted by richter111 on Sunday, February 22, 2004 10:54 AM
Gonna go it with the plastic cardstock and scribing, I have snagged about 50+ photos of the ship particularly the Island, when I get it done, look for it on www.modelwarships.com the nicest site on the web for model ships.
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Monday, February 23, 2004 3:11 PM
Geez Richter,

What's that endorsement gonna cost me???? My 2 cents [2c]

Jeff Herne
Modelwarships.com
  • Member since
    November 2003
Posted by richter111 on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 12:19 AM
Hummm well I dunno whadda got??????
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 11:24 AM
Richter - Thanks for the info. Plastic card and scribing might be beyond my present skills. I think I will try some experimenting this weekend. How far along are you on your conversion?

Jeff- I agree.. Your site is excellent. Dont' know if my ship will be good enough for it :-)

Jon
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 12:15 PM
BAH!!!

Any ship model is welcome there...and besides, with all the information I've given you, it HAS TO BE RIGHT!!! :-)

Jeff

PS: Richter, you didn't sign your advertising contract, so I don't have to pay ya!! Yeehaw, a loophole!! :-)
  • Member since
    November 2003
Posted by richter111 on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 1:23 PM
arrrrghhhhhhhhh I knew Id need a lawyer one day. Multi millionaire and he has to stick me on one little point!!!!!!
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 1:52 PM
Ack! Now the pressure is on!

  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 8:37 PM
Multi-millionaire?? Me?

I don't think so...I have about enough money to buy a couple of bottles of paint until pay day.

One does not get rich in the museum business....trust me on that.

J
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