HMS Victory by Artesania Latina.

I have not done the Victory, but have done a couple of other AL kits.  They are a real challenge.  It is not like building a plastic ship model nor a wood airplane kit.  Figure on a couple of years of spare time work even if you don't take a break for other kits.  There are two daunting tasks- planking and rigging.  The planks are just wood strips.  They have to be tapered near the bow and stern, and you have to take a series of measurements to plot the taper of each plank in those areas.

Rigging a wooden ship model is no harder than rigging a large plastic model, such as the Heller Victory (a fine plastic kit).  It is just that no one putting in the time to build a wooden ship model would use a jig for shrouds and ratlines, so you need to rig each shroud and tie each ratine.  Not terribly hard but tedius and trying of patience.

Personally on a major project like that, I like to alternate working on such a project and working in simpler projects in between.  Say a month on the sailing ship- then a month for a simple plastic kit or two, then back to the ship, and so on.  This is particularly true in the rigging phase.

Thank you Don. I also have the AL Bounty on the go...well, just started anyway.

Did you find any shortcomings with the instructions or any problems with missing parts?

I am looking forward to the challenge, especially the planking. I know what you are saying about working on simple models in between.

When I work on a model, it is all consuming and a diversion from my job. This is pretty weird by most people's reckoning, but I just love the problem solving and watching everything come together slowly.

In fact, I commented to a mate the other day that I rather dread the completion of a model, because then it is over. I enjoy the journey rather than the destination.

One problem that I have encountered with AL ship kits is that the bulkheads don't seem to fit the dimensions of the false keel; some might be too high or too low. In other words, the deck-level edge of the bulkheads often do not lie flush with the deck-level edge of the false keel. This was particularly true of the San Juan Nepomuceno.

Bill

Thanks Bill. I will keep an eye on that bit.

As soon as I have possession of my baby, I will attempt a build log. My wife said that she will do the photography for me and keep everything in order.

I have printed off your observation for future reference, so thank you for the heads up.

Errol.

Caveat in advance:  this is going to be the opinion of a fairly serious scale modeler.  Emphasis on "scale."  I'm among those who are intensely interested in the accuracy of a model - its dimensions, the authenticity of its fittings, etc.  Not all modelers are of this persuasion, and they all have the right to their tastes and opinions.  What follows is just my opinion; others are perfectly free to agree or disagree.

I've never built an Artesania Latina kit.  I have reviewed a couple of them for publications, and I've seen quite of few in the boxes - and read lots of internet posts from people who have been working on them.  My opinion of the company is, frankly, extremely low.  It's one of the leading HECEPOB firms - that's Hideously Expensive Continental European Plank-On-Bulkhead.  Serious scale modelers generally hold the firm in contempt; they refer to it as "Artist in the Latrine."  Its kits in general seem to be characterised by low-quality wood, shoddy fittings (often recycled from other kits, regardless of accuracy), utterly mediocre plans, and an utter lack of concern for historical accuracy.  And the price is - well, hidous.

That scale, 1/84, is interesting.  It isn't a standard scale for ship modeling.  I'd be willing to bet that the company chose the scale so it could recycle some standard fittings (gun barrels, maybe) that were originally designed for other kits.

In case I haven't made my opinion clear, I wouldn't allow an AL kit in my house.  

If one is looking for an HMS Victory kit, I can recommend five.  The smallest - but it's a really nice one - is the tiny cast metal one from Skytrex on 1/700 scale.  There are three good plastic versions, from Revell and Airfix on smaller scales and the huge Heller one on 1/100.  (The latter is often called the best plastic sailing ship kit on the market.  I'm not sure I'd go quite that far, but it's a fine kit.)  The one wood one I can recommend as a serious scale model is the even bigger 1/72 kit from Calder/Jotika.  It's more expensive than I'll ever be able to afford, but the people who designed it know absolutely what they're doing.  (I can't say that about AL.)

On a slightly different tack - I don't think ANY experienced ship modeler would recommend the Victory as a first project in sailing ship modeling.  There are lots of excellent reasons to start with something smaller and simpler.  Believe me.

I'll close by emphasizing once again that the foregoing are my opinions.  But a whole lot of serious scale ship modelers would agree.  In fact some of them would say I'm being to nice to AL.

Sorry to hijack this thread, gentleman....

Professor Tilley, first let me say how I appreciate your exception to those who are not of the *serious*, *intense*, or *accurate* modeling persuasion.  I, as you may know, am much more casual in my approach to builds.  At times it seems as though some of the *serious* modelers don't take us *casual* modelers *seriously*.  It's kind of a drag, particularly since I feel my skills are substantial, and my enjoyment of modeling is equal to anyone's...

On to the real point of my interjection:  You mentioned in your last reply that the Heller 1/100 Victory is often called the best plastic sailing ship kit, but you may have a different opinion??  You're known across various forums for your encyclopedic knowledge and vast experience of the subject.

In your opinion, what is the best plastic sailing ship model kit on the market??  In terms of things like quality of the tooling, detail, clarity of instructions, historical accuracy (gasp!), or any other qualities by which you regard a kit's merits??  

Errol, if you go to the Model Ship World Forum you will find several build logs for the AL Victory. If you join and start a build log, you will get a response to just about any question you ask.

modelshipworld.com/.../portal.php

Here's my two bits on the subject.

There's little in modeling more frustrating than a kit that you cannot complete. IMO the best kits are the ones that get built, and often. Ones that come to mind are the 1/96 Constitution,  for example.  That one gets built all the time by all kinds of folks at all levels, and produces great results.

As for the Heller Victory, there's another level of difficulty because the instructions are almost impossible to follow. I was lucky enough to get a set of the far superior ones, in English, from Imai. It's coming along nicely, although I currently plan to stop once the lower masts are up and rigged.

But  what will almost certainly happen in the case of a project like the AL Victory is that the kit will be started but will not be finished because of the futility and anger that ensue for all but the most masochistic builder with a lot of time on their hands. There's a nice review of their HMS Supply on the site mentioned, but that took a good modeler 2 1/2 years. But again, in my opinion, there's no good reason, and plenty of bad ones, to market a kit for a lot of money that requires serious intervention to even come out acceptable. I personally think it's a scam.

And then the modeler may well be turned off to ship modeling and modeling in general.

Well, since you asked....

Any attempt to define the "best plastic sailing ship kit on the market" inevitably gets one into a comparison of apples and oranges.  I'd be much more comfortable just making a short list of kits that I think are really good.  (To label one "best" sounds a little like a contest - and, as I've said so many times before in this forum, I don't believe in model contests.)  The phrase "on the market" is also a loaded one.  The majority of the sailing ships that have been released over the years are not in the current manufacturers' catalogs - and some of the now-vanished oldies really were goodies.  Some of them come back now and then under new labels - and I can't claim to have kept up with all the reissues.  (Shall we include, for instance, the late, lamented Imai line?  The company has been out of business for at least twenty years, but some of its products show up now and then in the boxes of other companies.)  Then there's the obvious problem of the fact that I haven't built, or seen, all the kits available (or once available).  I think the recent Emhar Gokstad Ship, for instance, may be on a par with the Revell one, if not even better - but I haven't seen the Emhar kit "in the flesh."

Having offered all those caveats, here's a list of plastic sailing ship kits that I think are quite accurate (no kit's perfect), well designed, and reasonably available.  They're in no particular order.

Heller 1/100 Victory

Revell 1/96 Constitution

Heller 1/75 Reale

Aoshima Cutty Sark

Revell Viking Ship (actually a fine replica of the Gokstad Ship)

Airfix Wasa (I've heard the new Revell one is at least as good in many respects - but I haven't seen it)

Revell Mayflower

Revell Golden Hind (currently, I think, floating around in a Heller box)

Airfix St. Louis

Heller 1/150 Superbe and Glorieux

Revell Charles W. Morgan

That's a pretty short list. I'll undoubtedly think of a few more later.  And please do remember that it's just one modeler's opinion.  I'd be willing to bet that somebody, within the next day or two, will post a reply saying the Heller Soleil Royal  belongs on the list.  I am firmly of the opinion that it doesn't, but to each his (or her) own.

As far as I'm concerned, the bottom line in all this is that model building is, for most of us, a hobby - that is, something we do for fun.  The rest of this Forum seems in general to emphasise scale modeling.  (I wonder what the people in the aircraft or armor section would think of an airplane or tank equivalent to the Zvezda "Black Swan" or the Heller Soleil Royal.)  Sailing ship modeling, for one reason or another, seems to attract a broader constituency.  That's great - to each his (or her) own.  But please don't think that my personal views on this stuff are unique - or even particularly unusual.  If you think that, take a look at the articles in the Nautical Research Journal or the late lamented Model Shipwright.  Believe me, compared to a lot of those folks I'm a pussycat.

Thank you jtilley. I get the feeling you don't like Artesania. As for historical accuracy, I am no longer of that persuasion due to the fact that there are varying opinions on what is correct, so for me it is a matter of scale and what I feel looks and feels right. I am pleased to read your description as 'intensely interested' in your preferences, rather than 'serious' etc, as I am intensely interested in the detail, colours, scale and challenge of a model.

Bondoman, I understand what you are saying regarding 'the best kits', but in my case I prefer the kits that most cannot or will not attempt. I have built Pocher, Bridgestone and Hasagawa kits that are sadly no longer produced. These are kits that I was told were rarely if ever, finished, so I was able to purchase them at reduced prices from a specialist dealer in Australia some years ago. In actual fact, I have never seen a completed model of any of the above, except mine, which were built over a period of about 12 years.

The AL Victory appears to me to be a straight forward build going by the instructions that I have obtained and other wood kits that I have worked with. The Bounty, which I have, seems the same. I should have the Victory in my hot little hands within the next few days, and yes, it cost a bomb and will cost me around another $500.00 hundred dollars just to collect it.

At the moment I am working on the Revell/Monogram 1/96 Constitution which is a nice simple kit which is of very average quality, in my opinion, but will look quite good when finished. I have assembled several Revell ship kits over the years and they have all looked good in spite of the quality of the sprues which I suspect are produced in different factories.

My preferred model brands are Hobby Boss, Hasagawa, and Trumpeter (which produces Hobby Boss).

There are plenty of other brands that I like, but those are the brands I look for first when buying as they are the brands that I have found to be of above average production quality.

I agree with jtilley that these are not real ships or cars or planes, but models, and we all have our own unique motivations for buying, building and enjoying. I don't care for the models based on movies, but I know some people who enjoy these for the same reason I enjoy my choices.

As for historical accuracy...I'll leave that to those who enjoy that style.

This has been a most interesting thread and I hope there are more 'opinions' expressed as it demonstrates the diversity of characters and motivators.

Errol.

By the way, thank you PritMar for that link. I'll certainly have a squiz around and see what they are up to.

Errol.

Howdy Errol!

I wanted to write you about a build I working on on my summer breaks - it's like five years now, and it's almost done. It's the 1805 Virginia Pilot Boat from Artist in the - ah, whatever . I got that kit partly started - had to disassemble it some and then planked the hull, put up the rigging and made my own sails - now I have only a few details to add and it will be done. When I started to build that kit, it was looking really good to me - that's my first and only wooden ship for now. Building the hull has been pure fun, but already at that point I noticed my first doubts - like OK, here we use exotic wood planks, and now they tell me to use plywood for, for example, the bulwark rails? Or I plank the deck meticulously and the instructions have me leave the inner sides of bulwarks in plain plywood for everybody to see? I wouldn't have that, so I organized extra exotic wood and started building details by myself. The closer I got to the rigging, the funnier it got and the more I was shaking my head. For example the chain plates on this kit are so ridiculous, you don't have to be a ship expert to know somethin' is goin' on wrong with 'em. That's where I made my next mistake - I picked up a book by Wolfram zu Mondfeld. Reading that book made me see more and more errors on the ship I just had to correct. I mean you could also finish it as it says on the plans - but then your model would show, for example, that a gaff can not be swung from one side to the other, because a stay is permamnently in the way. This particular kit is full of bugs like that. Now don't make this error I did - If you pick up a book about ships, you will probably like your kit less and less.

One more tip, if I may - that the bulkheads are die-cut, or laser-cut, doesn't mean they have the correct size or shape. They are (if you're lucky) larger, and need to be sanded to get that correct dimensions. Some of this sanding is supposed to be done before the fitting, some after the bulkheads are all in.

Finishing, I would like to wish you good luck with your project, and I'd love to see some pictures of the work in progress. Have a nice day

Paweł

Hi Pawel. Thanks for your info. I have been warned about the bulkheads awhile back and it seems that a lot of these wooden ships have little idiosyncrasies that can trap the unwary player. One build I did a few years ago had so many faults and poor fitting parts that the ship was almost a scratch build by the time I got everything done.

I don't recall the brand, but I remember it was manufactured in England. Mind you, it was a very old kit when I bought it. It's funny thinking back, because it was probably one of my favourites due to the work I had to put in. The bloke I bought it from (very cheaply), opened the box, tried to dry fit a few bits and gave up, so I understand how it can frustrate some modelers.

I spent so much time on the bandsaw and scrollsaw that I think I replaced most of the ribs, planks and decking before I could glue the first few parts together. From memory, it was allegedly the Cutty Sark, but when I was able to find a book from the library with pictures, I realised then that it was nothing like the Cutty. I still don't know what the hell it was, but it sure looked impressive.

Anyway, I am a model junkie and I am so passionate about modeling, that I doubt anything could put me off any particular model. Modeling to me is about the journey, not the destination. I cannot remember any situation where I have ever felt frustrated with any model, which makes me somewhat weird in the modeling world, it seems.

Even the Constitution, which is a simple build, will take me around 12 months to complete with the way I carry on with detail and adding extras like cannon balls for each cannon, powder buckets for each one as well, lots of extra ropes coiled and hanging and lying around the deck. There are brooms, blocks and pails for scrubbing the decks. All my ratlines will be hand made. The sails will be hand sewn with all the detail. Flags will be made from a very open weave material which will hang beautifully. The standing rigging will be painted by hand and scaled to suit.

So as you can see, I do fiddle around quite a bit with detail and I just can't get enough.

I have 7 models in my stash and they will take an estimated 10 years to complete, if I rush them or get enough time.

Enough of my ranting for now.

Errol.

Well, I now have my Artesania Victory. I have spent around 7 hours in total checking off  the contents of the box and reading the manual as well as measuring parts for fit. The whole kit is complete.

Like my previous Artesania kit, the quality is excellent. The 110 page manual is easy to follow and with the plans on compact disc, everything is go.

There are around 12,000 parts. Impressive, until you realise that there are 6,500 brass tacks/nails, lots of cannon balls, cannon truck wheels, hundreds of blocks and so on. More than half the count is in very small parts that one wouldn't normally include in a 'parts count', per se.

That's the good news.

The bad news is that unless you are 'into' woodwork, this may be uninteresting or difficult to complete. There is a great deal of measuring, drilling, cutting, filling, filing and sanding that will require a lot of patience and a small amount of skill. Nothing that can't be learned from forums such as this and any number of sources online.

The manual does not list tools required and this could be seen as a drawback if you are not a 'woodie'. For example, a dozuki saw would be very handy for fine work such as is required on these models or some pieces of fine bandsaw blade as well as a small tack hammer, drill bits and a few other bits and pieces that most woodies would have in their tool kits. No plank bender is supplied with the kit and no explanation is even given on how to use one.

So there are a few areas that I think could be better covered in the manual as an introduction.

Some plastic kit modelers may not be interested in trying one of these because of the amount of woodwork involved.  

Overall, the assembly seems quite straight forward, in spite of the wood work required. I estimate it will take me about 3 years to complete. The last wooden ship (scratch built) took me over 5 years. This one has simple plans and instructions.

As soon as I make a start (within the week), I will log the build.

Errol.

Cool Errol! I look forward to see you build this baby. I wonder if you will, as I did, feel the need to alter something in the kit as it is built. Good luck with your project, have a nice day

Paweł

Thanks Pawel. I am really looking forward to making a start. If I find anything that I may want to alter, I'll let you know so that we can compare notes.

I have just discovered something. Early this morning, I was checking out some reviews, which are sometimes written by people who have never built the kit or even owned it or known anyone who has built or owned it...anyway, some owners discovered a few errors in the instructions and numbering of parts as well as some poor finishes in the ply parts especially.

This kit that I have is obviously a very late model (as mentioned by the retailer the other day during a phone call), because the laser cut ply panels come with a set of A4 printed plans which do not match up with the instruction book  ply layout. The book shows 8 pieces of bulk head on 1 sheet whereas the 'new' plans and ply sheets have only 4 pieces contained within. So it appears that AL has listened to complaints and rectified same.

The supplier of my kit  is obviously an experienced and knowledgable modeler and has assured me that if I should find any faults, they will be dealt with rapidly, but is confident that the product is of a very high standard.

As I stated earlier in this thread, this kit presents very well and it may well be due to some modifications and improvements by AL.

As an aside, prices in Australia range from $700.00 to over $1,100.00 for the same kit and none of the sellers can offer a discount due to their 'narrow margins', so shop around carefully. Some oversees prices are around $300 to $400 plus postage of course, but then you have no recourse if anything is amiss.

Errol.