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Any advice on painting and weathering a plastic tall ship model?

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  • Member since
    September 2010
Posted by modelnut on Sunday, September 30, 2012 5:34 PM

Thanks, J,

I see the pencil now.

OK. I have looked at the model. I can see that the eyelets will probably need replacing with metal rings if possible. They look pretty delicate. A friend suggested weaving my own ratlines but those in the kit look pretty thin. I don't think string would be that much thinner so why bother?

The bottom of the hull looks to be wooden planking not copper sheathing as a British ship of the time should be, if I recall correctly. I will need to review Beat to Quarters to see what the Lydia had. Surely they mention what the bottom was when they brought her ashore for repair. It has been years since I read the book.

- Leelan

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, September 30, 2012 1:40 PM

Leelan, there is an edit function.  Just click on the tiny pencil icon at the lower lefthand corner of your post.  I do it far more often than I'd like to admit.

The Davis book is an old classic.  He was one of the founding fathers of modern scale ship modeling.  One does, though, need to remember that the book was published in the 1920s, so much of the practical information is pretty severely out of date.  But the book can be found on the shelf of most serious ship modelers.

I'm not really familiar with the Mastini book, but I have the impression that it's primarily aimed at builders of HECEPOB kits.  That's not a criticism; I have no reason to believe there's anything incorrect in it.

There's plenty of incorrect stuff in the Roth book, which, in my humble personal opinion, is one of the worst books on ship modeling ever published.  I've commented on it elsewhere in this Forum; rather than rephrase my comments on it, I've pasted in a review of it I wrote in 1988 for the Nautical Research Jornal: 

"With the untimely death of Dr. Milton Roth ship modeling lost one of its most enthusiastic promoters. A retired podiatrist, Dr. Roth came to the hobby late in life but made a noticeable impact on it. He was a well-known, jovial fixture at NRG conferences, and his articles appeared regularly in several commercial magazines. His mail-order supply house, 'The Dromedary,' earned a fine reputation for fast and friendly service. Dr. Roth also acquired his share of critics, who wondered (and sometimes asked none too subtly) how thoroughly he really understood his subjects. This book probably will give his admirers and detractors alike about what they expected.

"In style and content it is a highly individual work. Irrespective of the title, the text deals almost exclusively with sailing ships; powered vessels are mentioned only in passing. The weight given to various topics seems to reflect the author's own interests. We get two paragraphs on the 'lift' method of hull construction and sixteen on techniques for removing CA adhesive from various parts of the human anatomy. Much of the commentary on the problems of product distribution will be of limited interest to most readers. On the other hand, Dr. Roth deserves applause for his forthrightness in describing the defects of imported 'plank-on-bulkhead' kits.

"Those who knew Dr. Roth will find his personality stamped on every page. Other readers will, on numerous occasions, scratch their heads as they attempt to figure out what the author was trying to say. (A representative sentence: 'It will be for you to decide what you have learned as distinct from what you have not already known.') The best parts of the book are the good-humored introductions to the subject's most basic elements. There are some peculiar errors of fact (no reliable evidence suggests that Samuel Pepys ever built a ship model, and the reference to the death of an English king in 1712 is bewildering), but most of the historical information is general enough to be innocuous. The lists of sources for tools and kits will come in handy, and the bibliographical notes, though they have a few holes in them, are reasonably thorough and up to date.

"The weakest chapter is the one entitled 'Size and Scale.' Herein, I fear, the reader will get lost in a jumble of outright misinformation ('1/4 inch = 1 foot' and 'quarter scale' do not mean the same thing), and murky syntax ('the popular scale, 1/4 inch = 1 foot, which we have established as also being equal to four feet of the size in the original object, is expressed in units'). 'To find the decimal equivalent,' we are advised at one point, 'divide 12 by the scale you wish to model.' Six lines later we read: 'To find the decimal equivalent, divide the scale by 12.' At this point I'm not sure what the author intended the term 'decimal equivalent' to mean, but one of those statements has to be wrong. An understanding of scale is basic to any form of scale modeling. Burying it under three pages of verbal and arithmetical confusion [I originally wrote "sheer gibberish," but the magazine editor talked me out of it] does no service for anybody - least of all the novice for whom, presumably, the book was intended.

"The text runs into trouble whenever it gets involved with mathematics. The author apparently wasn't at ease with the concept of percentage; he tended to write '.22 percent' when he meant '22 percent.' The chapter on 'Proportions for Rigging' ends with a table entitled 'Standing Rigging of the 74-gun Ship of the Line, Washington, 1815 (based on tables of USN 1826).' There follows a list of rigging lines, accompanied by a list of numbers. What do the numbers mean? Well, the explanation at the bottom reads: 'Ratio/Proportion of spar Diameter Circumference (In Inches).' Good luck, intrepid beginner.

"Many of the book's problems undoubtedly stem from the sad circumstances under which it was finished. If the author had lived to give the proofs a thorough reading he undoubtedly would have made some major changes. (I don't think he really meant to say, for instance, that 'there is no difference between a scalpel and a saw in their respective cutting abilities as long as they are sharp.')  [I visualize some poor schlep trying to cut a 2x4 with a scalpel - or trim a rigging line with a crosscut saw.]  Part of the blame for the book's overall sloppiness must also rest on the shoulders of the publisher. Virtually every page contains grammatical and/or typographical errors. The manuscript needed, and apparently never got, the attentions of a competent editor.

"The book includes about 250 illustrations, the majority of them reprinted from other published sources. The drawings range in quality from the superb (George Campbell's perspective view of H.M.S. Victory's foretop) to the awful. In several cases they do not quite serve their intended purposes. A reprinted drawing captioned 'Buttock Lines in the Sheer Plan' also shows the station lines and waterlines - and provides no hint as to which are which. The captions generally acknowledge the sources properly, though the names of several artists and repositories are garbled. Two old prints are credited to 'The National Maritime Museum, Washington, D.C.' No such institution exists.  [In 2012 it still doesn't.]

"There also are numerous photographs - but, surprisingly, none of Dr. Roth's own models. [Hint.]  The quality of reproduction generally is high, the thirteen color plates being excellent. But at least one photo is printed in reverse, and another is upside down.

"The last chapter offers advice to the modeler who wants to turn professional. A rather emotional passage lays out a formula to determine the price of a kit-built model. Much of this discourse is predicated on the emphatic assertions that $3.65 x 50 hours = $175 and 100 x $80 = $800. Should the reader laugh or cry?

"Milt Roth was a first-rate gentleman, and I wish I could recommend his book. His many friends probably will value it as a poignant memorial to a likable, outgoing, and ebullient character. But it is not a sound introduction to ship modeling."

To be fair, Milt Roth had - and continues to have - his admirers.  When I quoted that review in another web forum (Drydock Models), I was surprised at how many people jumped to the book's defense.  (On the other hand, quite a few people in another forum, Modelshipworld, agreed with me.)

My personal opinion is that's it's one of the awfulest books about ship modeling on the market.  But to each his/her own.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2010
Posted by modelnut on Sunday, September 30, 2012 11:53 AM

Thank you all!

I just picked up the Jolly Roger yesterday. But I haven't had time to open the box yet. I work nights on the weekend and semi-graveyard through the week. I will open the box and look at the parts very soon.

But I have several books about ship modeling coming in the mail. So I will wait a bit before I start to separate any of the parts from the sprue.

Hopefully in a week or so I may start a build thread.

- Leelan

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Saturday, September 29, 2012 2:53 PM

Military sailing ship is "over-staffed" for one; all of the "sticks and strings" are also necessary, too.  This combination means that maintenance and repair tend to be functionally immediate.  The contemporary logs are filled with maintenance notes.  Entire sails, yards, even masts, would be struck down and worked upon.  The "bright" work (especially the bright work) would be kept up an maintained, even in the worst of conditions.

Where does that leave the modeler?

Subtle things ought suffice.  Some salt staining about the hull, some weediness about the waterline, perhaps some oxidation (electrolytic, not rust) about the metal fittings.  

Other things could be a brand-new spar, or sail.  A replaced boat, or a missing one would show wear.  Remember that the sails are in the sun, and they will fade, rather than darken.  Sails are repaired by the whole width, not by a patch.  A hard-worked sail on a stormy passage might be weathered below its reefs--but, that would be very subtle, reefs are shaken out and taken in on a regular basis.  

The masts could be dulled where the parrells ride; a stay or halyard could be in all-new line.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by dickeywood on Friday, September 28, 2012 5:15 PM

Hi new to this forum and all forums here.

I would also suggest that you might read at your leisure "Two years before the mast" by Richard Henry Dana, Jr. It is experiences as a sailor on a 2 year voyage. A good real about what the common sailor did every day. Great for getting one in the mood to do a sailing ship.

  • Member since
    September 2010
Posted by modelnut on Friday, September 28, 2012 3:39 PM

I just ordered Historic Ship Models, by Wolfram zu Mondfelt. Would you believe the hardback was cheaper than the paperback?

- Leelan

  • Member since
    September 2010
Posted by modelnut on Friday, September 28, 2012 3:33 PM

Oh wait! I have The Basics of Ship Model Building somewhere in my 3000 book library . . .

- Leelan

  • Member since
    September 2010
Posted by modelnut on Friday, September 28, 2012 3:31 PM

I ordered three books last week. Before anyone suggested anything.

Ship Modeling from Stem to Stern Milton Roth

Ship Modeling Simplified: Tips and Techniques for Model Construction from Kits Frank Mastini

Ship Models: How to Build Them (Dover Woodworking) Charles Davis

- Leelan

  • Member since
    September 2010
Posted by modelnut on Friday, September 28, 2012 2:50 PM

*sight* --- oy. Why is there no "Edit" function on this board?

- Leelan

  • Member since
    September 2010
Posted by modelnut on Friday, September 28, 2012 2:47 PM

Thank you, jtilley!

I appreciate your honesty. As I may have said earlier, I have very little room in my house for every ship model I could wish for. So I am thinking about only two (or maybe three.) The first will be Hornblower's Lydia. The second looks to be the Golden Hind since it looks so good and is in 72nd scale. If there will ever be a third I may give a nod to history and Hornblower by looking for Pellew's Indefatigable.

As for weathering, I know the British sailor spent a lot of time scrubbing and making the ship ship-shape in Bristol fashion. So not a lot of weathering would ever show. But if a frigate sailed around the world out of site of land from England to the West coast of Central America, wouldn't you think the sails might look a little the worse for wear? That's why I posted the image I did and \asked for advice.

- Leelan

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, September 28, 2012 12:04 AM

Well...since you asked - and since you haven't already been flooded with responses - I'll take the liberty of sticking my oar in.

My first suggestion:  wipe the term "tall ship" from your vocabulary.  It doesn't really mean anything .  The phrase apparently originated with the great poet, John Masefield, in his "Sea Fever."  ("I must go down to the sea again, to the lonely sea and the sky/And all I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by.")  In the 1970s or thereabouts it got picked up by advertisers and marketers as a means of promoting the appearances of sailing vessels (mainly sail training ships) at festivals and other events (most notably the U.S. Bicentennial celebration in 1976).  Serious modelers and enthusiasts don't use it.

Sailing ships ("period ships" is another widely accepted term) occupy only a tiny segment of the plastic model business.  Compared to their counterparts in aircraft, armor, railroad, and warship modeling, the number of people who make a hobby of building plastic sailing ship kits is miniscule.  The kits that do exist are generally sneered at (in many cases unjustly, in my opinion) by people who consider themselves "real" ship modelers.  They build from scratch, or from wood kits.

Personally, I'm firmly of the opinion that (as I used to tell people in my days as a hobby shop clerk) in terms of scale fidelity most of the plastic sailing ship kits are junk, and most of the wood kits are worse.  A whole industry has developed around wood kits produced (and sold at astronomical prices) by Italian and Spanish manufacturers, apparently aimed at a market consisting largely of interior decorators and other folks who have little interest in real ships and just want a finished product that looks pretty.  In this forum it's become sort of customary to refer to such kits as HECEPOBs.  (That's Hideously Expensive Continental European Plank-On-Bulkhead.)  The most common offenders are Mamoli, Amati, Corel, Artisania Latina, and Sergal.

It should be noted that there are good wood kit manufacturers out there.  My three nominees are Model Shipways, Bluejacket, and Calder/Jotika, a British firm that makes excellent, if extremely expensive, eighteenth-century British warship kits.

Because the plastic sailing ship community is so small, scarcely anything about it has been published.  About the only book I can think of that deals specifically with the topic is an old one from Kalmbach titled The Basics of Ship Model Building.  Most of it is devoted to twentieth-century warships, but a couple of chapters (twenty or thirty pages, maybe) do deal with sailing vessels.  It's been out of print for a long time.

The best way to get acquainted with the basics of sailing ship modeling probably is to get hold of several books that talk about wood kits.  The one I'd recommend most for starters is George Campbell's The Neophyte Shipmodeler's Jackstay.  It was published back in the early sixties by Model Shipways, as a general handbook for the company's solid-hull wood kits.  Many of the techniques described in it are irrelevant to plastic kits, but it also contains lots of good, general advice.  And it provides a remarkably thorough, but brief, introduction to the history of sailing ship technology and terminology.  If one learned everything about ships that's between the covers of that book, one would be well on the way to understanding how a sailing ship works - and understanding the real thing is the first step toward building a serious scale model of it.

Another book I can recommend, with a few reservations, is Historic Ship Models, by Wolfram zu Mondfelt.  (I may have garbled that slightly; sorry.)  Mr. Mondfelt knows his subject, and the book contains a ton of information.  Its big problems, from the standpoint of the American newcomer, are that (a) it's extremely European in focus, and (b) it covers so much material that it can't cover any particular ship type, or even any one century in history, with any thoroughness.  But it's certainly worth reading and keeping close to the workbench.

As many participants in this Forum know, I'm a big booster of the plastic sailing ship kit - with the huge caveat that the really good ones (in my personal opinion) number in the low dozens.  I also have to acknowledge that, while styrene plastic is a fine medium for reproducing many parts of a sailing ship (the hull, decorative carvings, and many deck fittings), it's a lousy medium for reproducing others.  Plastic is not good for smaller masts and yards, or for small parts that have to sustain a lot of stress (e.g., eyebolts and belaying pins).  Some modelers replace a good percentage of the kit parts with scratchbuilt replacements, or with aftermarket parts designed for wood models.

This post is too long already, so I'll stop.  I hope other Forum members will add their two cents' worth.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Thursday, September 27, 2012 8:40 AM

Weathering should be minimal.  Warships had a large crew size that was more than needed for ordinary sailing, so many extra hands to sand, paint, repair, etc.- needed large crew for all those guns!

If kit has preformed shroud/ratline assemblies, I'd replace those with individually rigged shrouds and do your own ratlines.  You might consider replacing kit's rigging parts (deadeyes and blocks) with aftermarket stuff from Model Expo or Bluejacket.  Avoid white for running rigging- use tan or beige or something- white often looks too stark and calls too much attention to lines that should be very subtle.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    September 2010
Posted by modelnut on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 11:29 AM

BTW I do not plan on adding stud sails as in this example. Although Hornblower might have deployed them as the Lydia was becalmed as the book opened.

- Leelan

  • Member since
    September 2010
Any advice on painting and weathering a plastic tall ship model?
Posted by modelnut on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 11:17 AM

I am planning on building Hornblower's Lydia as seen as she arrived off the coast of the New World in Beat to Quarters and in the opening scenes of Gregory Peck's 1951 movie.

I stumbled across this picture while doing research last week:

And that's what I am going after. I have tried contacting the builder but I have received no response.

What would be the best way to get the sails like this? I am going to buy Lindberg's Jolly Roger/ La Fliore kit next week. That seems to be the best commercially available plastic kit to build an 18th century British 32-gun frigate from that I have found ( and so many of you have advised me.)

I have also ordered a few books on building tall ship models from Amazon. They should start arriving next week. But if any of you have any tips to offer I would not say no.

Thank you!

- Leelan

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