SEARCH FINESCALE.COM

Enter keywords or a search phrase below:

What books do you recommend for modelers building sailing ships?

9652 views
18 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    September 2010
Posted by modelnut on Wednesday, October 17, 2012 2:31 PM

Yep. Lydia has a copper bottom. I says so in chapter XX The Isle of Coiba.

- Leelan

  • Member since
    September 2010
Posted by modelnut on Wednesday, October 17, 2012 7:25 AM

OK. I just ordered Jackstay, 1812 and Six Frigates.

I am currently rereading Beat to Quarters. Lydia and Natividad are catching their breath from the first afternoons fight. But the storm is abating and they are about to renew battle. Soon Hornblower will be rebuffed by Spanish authorities and will beach Lydia for repairs. Then I hope to see whether she had a copper bottom or not.

Thank you all for your help!

- Leelan

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • From: Miami, FL
Posted by Felix C. on Sunday, October 14, 2012 11:39 AM

For planking I recommend online videos and practicing with scrap wood bits. Fortunately, if the kit is dual planking then the first one can be rough and you fill in with filler.  

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Mount Bretherton Model Aircraft Observatory
Posted by f8sader on Saturday, October 13, 2012 1:08 PM

Leeland,

I haven't read it, but I'll take your tip and look for it at half price books, amazon, etc.

Lon-ski

  • Member since
    September 2012
  • From: Edmond, Oklahoma
Posted by Tom Cervo on Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:53 AM

Yup, I bought the Jackstay book on your recommendation and I concur that it's an excellent book for the beginner wood ship builder.

"A man cannot say he has fully lived until he has built a model ship"

Ronald Reagan

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, October 11, 2012 10:10 AM

For what little it's worth, I aired my personal opinions on several of the books under discussion just a few weeks ago here:  cs.finescale.com/.../1605250.aspx .

I've sung the praises of George Campbell's Neophyte Shipmodeler's Jackstay several times in the Forum.  If I could recommend one book to a newcomer to sailing ship modeling, this would be it.  Yes, it's aimed at solid-hull wood kit modelers.  (It was originally published as sort of a general-purpose instruction book for Model Shipways kits.)  And it's long in the tooth.  (It was published, if I remember right, in about 1960.)  But it contains all sorts of solid modeling advice (the techniques of rigging plastic and wood models aren't much different), and, given its brevity, a vast amount of information about the history of sailing ship technology.  A person who learned everything in that book would be well on the way to being really knowledgeable about the subject.

I share Schoonerbumm's enthusiasm for the Harland book.  So far as I know, there's nothing quite like it.  I have the impression that it's currently out of print, but used copies should be available on the web.

I can recommend Mondfeld's book with a couple of reservations.  First, it's very, very European in its focus.  (Some of the references to wood types and fittings, for instance, won't be as relevant to American modelers.)  Second, it covers so much ground that it can't cover any subject with much thoroughness.  But as a start for a library on ship modeling it's hard to beat.

Harold Underhill's books are superb.  But bear in mind that they refer almost exclusively to one sort of ship:  late-nineteenth- and early-twentieth-century merchant vessels.  If you're building a model of the Cutty Sark, the Archibald Russell, or the Pamir, Underhill's Deep Water Sail and Masting and Rigging:  The Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier should be on your must-read list.  But if you're building an eighteenth-century frigate those books will be almost completely irrelevant.

Lever's Young Officer's Sheet Anchor is a primary source (not a modeling book) on warship and merchant ship rigging in the very late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries.  It's extremely valuable for learning prototype practice in that period (but useless for Spanish galleons or twentieth-century merchantmen).  I particularly recommend the edition published by, of all people, Lee Valley Toolworks: http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=40983&cat=1,46096,46117&ap=1 .  This edition contains updates by another author that bring the book up to the 1850s.  It's a nice, hardbound volume, and it doesn't cost much.

Unfortunately there's a dearth of books (and articles) dealing with plastic sailing ships.  A big part of the problem is that the potential market is so small.  Another is that so many people who are interested in sailng ship models turn their noses up (wrongly, in my opinion) at anything that isn't made of wood.  Yet another - common to ship modeling books in general - is that books aimed at beginners tend to be written by people who never got far beyond beginner status themselves, and, to put it bluntly, don't really know what they're talking about. (See Roth, Milton, above.)  The experts usually write books that demonstrate their expertise and experience.  (Exception:  see Campbell, George, above.)  Donald McNarry is one of my favorites - but when I look at his models I feel like giving up.  The same goes for modelers like C. Nepean Longridge and Phillip Reed - superb, inspiring stuff, but far beyond the reach of a newcomer.

Moving away from modeling books, the history of ships is, of course, a vast subject on which literally thousands of books have been written.  If you're interested in learning about it, I think my best advice would be to make up your mind about a particular period that interests you and do another post; I'm sure lots of Forum members would make good suggestions.  If I had to make one suggestion for somebody starting a library on the subject (and a library is what you'll end up with, if you keep at it), it would be the twelve-volume Conway's History of the Ship series.  It's out of print now (I think), and it never was cheap.  But your local public or university library may have a set, and used copies should should be available on the web.  For a while the series was available in paperback; if you can find a used paperback copy the price shouldn't be too awful.  (If you're interested in Napoleonic-period warships, for instance, the volume you want is The Line of Battle:  The Sailing Warship From About 1640 to the Introdution of Steam c. 1840.)  First-rate books that feature the latest scholarly thinking (as of the 1990s), along with lots of illustrations and an excellent, up-to-date bibliography.

Anybody who's been in the hobby for a while good go on all day about this topic.  Hope this helps a little.  Good luck; it's a great hobby.

 

Update an hour later:  I just checked a couple of bookstore websites (Amazon and Barnes and Noble).  It seems that used copies of the Conway's History of the Ship volumes can be found all right (the series is indeed out of print), but the prices are pretty hideous.  The cheapest copy of Cogs, Caravels, and Galleons listed was about $75.00, and the most expensive was (believe it or not) $9,999.00.  All the copies listed were hardbound.  If all twelve volumes are going for the same prices, a full set would cost...well, let's not talk about it.

The height of ridiculousness, though, has to be this:  http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B008T1VONE/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used .  For the record, in the unlikely event that some insane person buys it, I won't make a nickel.

Well, libraries are wonderful places....

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Monterey Bay, CA
Posted by schoonerbumm on Wednesday, October 10, 2012 12:28 PM

As a former maritime museum research librarian, I think that the books that have been listed will provide good overviews of the parts of a sailing vessel, and guides for techniques and materials, but from my own experience, the most valuable (and relatively inexpensive) book in my personal library is:

"Seamanship in the Age" of Sail by John H. Harland. - available for about $50 through addall.com

I think that this is the best available overview of the evolution of sailing vessels and how they were operated - a big bonus is Harland's extensive bibliography -a portal to other references not usually found in modeling books.

Car modelers would be aghast at a steering wheel in the back seat or red lenses on headlights - or a running board on a 65 mustang. An open cockpit without an instrument panel or five dia. inch rivets on a wing panel would gag an aircraft modeler. Yet I see such horrible, ignorant errors on ship models all the time. Even attending Nautical Research Guild conferences, I am amazed by top tier modelers that have no clue as to how the vessels they model actually worked - and that ignorance is sometimes evident in their work.

Harland's book will also provide a good starting point for the loose stuff not covered by ships plans. Binnacles, anchor buoys, awnings, awning frames, carpenter's and caulker's tools, boat accessories, navigation equipment, etc. - decks were very cluttered and busy places.  Ships provide the same opportunities for customized detail and weathering that armour does. Like armor, people actually lived and worked in these vehicles.

For those that are not lucky enough to actually witness a sailing vessel under way, a good set of references often ignored by modelers are inexpensive used books on 18th and 19th century marine artists (try Conways book on Nicholas Pocock - or any of their Pictorial Histories series - then google the cited artists for more free images). These folks painted what they saw, not from photographs or plans. For instance, google "Pierre Ozanne", look at his watercolors and oils to get a sense of what was discernable to a viewer - and note the varying set of sails in his drawings and prints - awnings, rigging, etc., there were few circumstances where every piece of canvas was flying, and when they were the yards would have been braced hard over. Kits and reference books tend to reflect "sail plans", not sail "sets".  Others to google are Thomas Luny, Dominic Serres, John Clevely, Robert Clevely, Francis Swaine - many were sailors that became artists - and lucky for us - were criticized for too much emphasis on technical datails and historical accuracy at the expense of design and "good taste" - be wary of the later romantic painters (like Turner and Loutherbourg) who painted for the aristocracy, not ship owners and officers.  

Also, with the old art, you will discover things like the tension in shrouds and stays, the prominence of sail gaskets, - and for the most part, the absence (lack of visibility) of ratlines. Access to these images can help you prioritize model and rigging detail.

For instance, the absence of ratlines to a sailor is much more realistic than having shrouds pulled this way and that by tied ratlines (which at modeling scales of 1/96 or smaller, would be about the diameter of a hair) or the plastic monstrosities provided in many kits.  Period models often did not include ratlines (I sense that our current day obsession with ratlines, even at 1/700 scale, is perhaps the single greatest deterrent to modeling sailing vessels).

Of course, a possible down side of good references is the resulting dismay at the pathetic research or shortcuts that have gone into designing plastic sailing vessels.  By the same token, an upside of good references is the ability to discern which models would be better left as "admiralty style" hull models and which kits are worthy of the time investment associated with rigging - or what kit bashing is going to be required to make a decent model.

Harland is a good generic starting point. I would suggest that further expansion of your library start with a focus on a period and type of vessel that you find fascinating - "e-bay fever" over general references can get expensive.

Further recommendations depend on your choices.

Enjoy.

Alan

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." Benjamin Franklin

  • Member since
    October 2012
Posted by Andrew T on Tuesday, October 9, 2012 10:28 PM

The responses seem to cover the how to. For plans try the Mystic Seaport Museum in Connecticut, the Mariner's Museum in Newport New, Virginia, and the Smithsonian to name a few. Almost any museum that has a boat will have a few sets of plans. The big treasure trove of information if you are good at proweling is to use Google Advanced Book Search. Look around for design books, advertisements, repair manuals, seamanship books, etc.

You might also want to think about what materials and what scale you are interested in. Scale will radically change what construction techniques you can use. There are a lot of choices: plastiic kits, scratchbuilt fiberglass, wood kits, solid hulls, hulls made in layers (lifts), planks on a simple jig, planks on scale ribs, brass, tinplate steel, and I a sure others I can't think of right now.

A few books I have are: Wooden Ship-Building by Charels Desmond, The History of American Sailing Ships by Howard I. Chapelle and also his book The History of The American Sailing Navy. Then there is my favorite nautical reference: Standard Seamanship for the Merchant Service by Felx Riesenburg. I have a 1936 edition that I bought for 50 cents 40 years ago. That edition covers wooden sailing ships and iron steamers. A good general reference.

  • Member since
    September 2010
Posted by modelnut on Tuesday, October 9, 2012 7:15 PM

Just got How to Build Plastic Ship Models and Historic Ship Models in the mail. After a quick thumb through How to looks to be good. Historic looks like it should be the Bible for ship modelers. Indifferent OMG the detail that book goes into is unbelievable!

- Leelan

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Norway
Posted by Finn on Sunday, October 7, 2012 4:48 PM

I am the first to admit that I am no expert on sailing ships, but: My daughter has crossed the atlantic on a fullrigger and even worked the top gallants in a gale and my son in law is the captain of a sailing ship. They have the following book and recomends it: "Masting and Rigging: The Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier". Amazon is listing it at a very high price but it is sometimes available from senond handers in Britain from a fraction of the price; That is how I bought mine. I you are ever going to build a nineteenth century tall ship it is probably the only reference you need on the rigging.

  • Member since
    September 2012
  • From: Edmond, Oklahoma
Posted by Tom Cervo on Sunday, October 7, 2012 3:51 PM

I know what you mean.  I got into RC A/C for a while and quickly had to decide which hobby to stick with (especially when jets became available).  Since I was already vested in ship modeling, I decided to stay with it (It's cheaper too).      ;-)))

"A man cannot say he has fully lived until he has built a model ship"

Ronald Reagan

  • Member since
    September 2010
Posted by modelnut on Sunday, October 7, 2012 3:42 PM

Thanks, Don.

I have it in my sights.

Lonski,

I have that book on my list as well from your response on another thread.  Have you read  1812: The Navy's War by George C. Daughan (Oct 4, 2011) ? It looks interesting as well.

Jose!

Petersson's book starts at $30! Oy. I think my budget is already blown from buying all the other books first. I think I will keep that book in mind for when the wallet recovers.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's the sad truth that my eyes have always been bigger than my wallet. I collected resin kits when I was a lonely bachelor. And I fell in love with the idea of radio controlled submarines --- if you want to talk expensive hobby, there it is! Now that I am married and have a family to care for my budget has been busted down to strictly plastic.

Don't let me kid you. I am 51 and I have been married for only three years. This is my first and only marriage, and I couldn't be any happier or I would spontaneously combust! My wife actually encourages my hobby unlike many wives I have heard about. So I am a very very lucky man and I know it. The only time I miss my free and easy spending ways is when someone waves a nice and shiny +$100 kit in front of me. But then I think of my wife and the joy I get from her voice and her smile and I realize that no model could ever compare.Not even close.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ok. Back to our regularly scheduled thread.

Thank you all for your book suggestions! I will check them out and get some of them when I can. In the meantime I will watch the builds going on here and do my best to learn. I do have some skills from working on resin and styrene kits. So I will start polishing some cannon before I start thinking about rigging.

- Leelan

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Sunday, October 7, 2012 10:38 AM

The Neophyte Shipmodeler's Jackstay, by G F Campbell is primarily about building wooden models, but does have a fair section on rigging.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    September 2010
Posted by modelnut on Saturday, October 6, 2012 12:45 PM

Steve,

I am building the Lindberg Jolly Roger / La Flore. Found her at my local hobby shop. I am building the kit to be Hornblower's Lydia from Beat to Quarters

A friend said that I absolutely must replace the kit's shrouds and ratlines with thread. But the kits parts are very fine. They do not look toy-like at all. I don't see how anything I might do could improve on them.

The kit's instructions on rigging look to be pretty decent as well. But I have time to study a few books before I get that far. In fact, I haven't started yet. I want to see what these books have to say first. And there are a few ongoing builds that I am studying.

What can I say? I'm a nerd. I like to study all available sources before I start something like this. Besides, I don't have room in my house for many ship models. I want to do the best I can. Museum quality is what I am shooting for.

- Leelan

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Mount Bretherton Model Aircraft Observatory
Posted by f8sader on Friday, October 5, 2012 10:39 PM

I would personally recommend a book such as Six Frigates that has nothing to do with model ship building or rigging, but it keeps the "desire fire" fueled if you are building something of that period type.

Lon-ski

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Friday, October 5, 2012 8:09 PM

Modelnut,

What ship are you building?

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: San Diego
Posted by jgonzales on Friday, October 5, 2012 4:34 PM

Hello Leelan,

One of my favorites is "Rigging Period Ship Models: A step by step guide to the intricacies of the square rig" by Lennarth Petersson. It is well illustrated, and while sparse on written word explanations, the diagrams are very clear.

Keep in mind, however, that the rig demonstrated is for a very specific ship. While much of the information may be applicable to ships from the mid-18th century through the Napoleonic era, particularly for small frigates, it is always best to get references specific to the ship you are building.

Cheers!

Jose Gonzales

Jose Gonzales San Diego, CA
  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, October 5, 2012 2:59 PM

Hi Leelan-

I'm sure the more knowledgeable members here will be able to add to my suggestions, but being relatively new to ship model building, I can offer some input for you.

Mastini's book, Ship Modeling Simplified, IS great!  It's not often mentioned by other modelers on here (that I've noticed), but I got it and think it helped me understand a lot of basic stuff....not very in-depth for most subjects, but it does a good job of covering the most obvious areas of shipmodeling.

BTW, I'm assuming you are interested in sailing ships mostly?

How to Build Plastic Ship Models, by Wilkins....I wasn't impressed at all.  Very old, very vague, and very thin...it seemed more like a pamphlet to me.  There are definitely some good points in it, but I felt like I wasted my time (and $$)  getting it.  Just my opinion.  It might be a good companion if you are building a revell 1/96 Constitution (because the book follows a modified build of that kit)...

However, I can recommend a couple of books that are good for sailing ship modelers...I'm kinda leaning toward some Wooden ship modeling, so these two are more aimed at that, but even just for a good understand of ships, rigging, and the way things go together, you will benefit from the information in these:

"Planking the built-up ship model"  -Mostly for wood modelers, as I mentioned, and also

"The Neophyte shipmodelers jackstay"....very informative, and packed with good info.

Both of those books were recommended to me by members here, and I'm glad I got them!  And the Mastini book you already have is very helpful, and has a lot of good information...

I'd like to hear how you like the other books you have, and the ones on order....

It's important to be careful buying shipmodeling books, reviews can vary widely, and no one wants to waste time and money on books that aren't useful....

Hope this helps!

David

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    September 2010
What books do you recommend for modelers building sailing ships?
Posted by modelnut on Friday, October 5, 2012 2:35 PM

I have:

Ship Modeling from Stem to Stern   Milton Roth

Ship Models: How to Build Them (Dover Woodworking) Charles Davis

Ship Modeling Simplified: Tips and Techniques for Model Construction from Kits Frank Mastini

These two are coming in the mail:

Historic Ship Models  Wolfram Zu Mondfeld

How to Build Plastic Ship Models  Lester Wilkins, Burr Angle

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From a quick thumb through I am not impressed by Roth's book though some rigging details caught my eye. Davis' book seems to have little in the way of illustrations or diagrams. Matsini's looks fantastic, especially for anyone building a wooden kit or scratchbuild. The two books that have yet to arrive were recommended by others on this forum so I am looking forward to receiving those.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But Amazon has noticed my recent purchases and has recommended more.

Of the many listed, two caught my eye:

The Ship Model Builder's Assistant Charles G. Davis http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0486255840/ref=pe_259560_26082830_email_sim_1_ti

The Young Sea Officer's Sheet Anchor: Or a Key to the Leading of Rigging and to Practical Seamanship Darcy Lever  http://www.amazon.com/Young-Sea-Officers-Sheet-Anchor/dp/0486402207/ref=sr_1_9?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1349463653&sr=1-9&keywords=Anatomy+of+Nelson%27s+ships

The last book is more for the history since this book, published in 1819, was the handbook that most young officer's carried with them "to prepare themselves to face Napoleon's fleet." But I'm guessing it might be a must for any fan of the days of wooden sail.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Anyway. My library is growing. Should I buy these last two books? Are there others that are "must haves" that you would recommend?

Thank you!

- Leelan


 


JOIN OUR COMMUNITY!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

SEARCH FORUMS
FREE NEWSLETTER
By signing up you may also receive reader surveys and occasional special offers. We do not sell, rent or trade our email lists. View our Privacy Policy.