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Need clipper ship Thermopylae deck plan.

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  • Member since
    June 2019
Posted by mwe056 on Friday, December 25, 2020 7:50 PM

Hi everyone. Just wanted to post some updated pics from my build. Still working on the hull plating. The bow is giving me a hard time but I think I got it this time. I am happy with the stern. There is a lot of adheasive reisidue I have to clean off but Ill wait untill the hull is all done for that. 

Click on the links and zoom in. I think its a decent job. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/191311580@N03/shares/JU0mrx

https://www.flickr.com/photos/191311580@N03/shares/6YC420

https://www.flickr.com/photos/191311580@N03/shares/H6Q8i2

https://www.flickr.com/photos/191311580@N03/shares/17558E

https://www.flickr.com/photos/191311580@N03/shares/41Eh8q

https://www.flickr.com/photos/191311580@N03/shares/4V3P6a

 

  • Member since
    June 2019
Posted by mwe056 on Sunday, December 6, 2020 11:15 PM

Thanks Bill,

I'm a HO train guy so this is my first attempt at a ship. It's all about doing it right. Even if it you have to do it twice (which I did) lol

Matt

 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    June 2019
Posted by mwe056 on Sunday, December 6, 2020 11:01 PM

That's a nice jig. A little to big for my model but really nice. What scale that?

  • Member since
    March 2018
  • From: Chicago suburbs
Posted by Luvspinball on Sunday, December 6, 2020 1:38 PM

Now that you are done coppering, here is a jig one of the guys at my local meetings made.  Used small nailing brads for an air-powered nailer.  Pretty neat and repeatable way to make the copper plates.

copper1

copper2

copper3

Bob

Bob Frysztak

Luvspinball

Current builds:  Revell 1/96 USS Constitution with extensive scratch building

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, December 6, 2020 10:43 AM

Beautiful coppering and hull work!

Bill

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, December 6, 2020 10:10 AM

The links were not showing but they are now. Thanks.

Bill

 

  • Member since
    June 2019
Posted by mwe056 on Sunday, December 6, 2020 8:43 AM

Thanks Yes

  • Member since
    March 2018
  • From: Chicago suburbs
Posted by Luvspinball on Saturday, December 5, 2020 10:22 PM

click on links.  Nice images.  Nice job.

Bob

 

Bob Frysztak

Luvspinball

Current builds:  Revell 1/96 USS Constitution with extensive scratch building

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, December 5, 2020 8:55 PM

Unfortunately, I see no photos.

Bill

  • Member since
    June 2019
Posted by mwe056 on Saturday, December 5, 2020 6:58 PM

I edeited my last post, hopefully they will swow this time

  • Member since
    January 2020
Posted by Space Ranger on Saturday, December 5, 2020 5:30 PM

Not Bill, but images not visible.

 

  • Member since
    June 2019
Posted by mwe056 on Saturday, December 5, 2020 11:13 AM

warshipguy-"I would love to see your current work!"

Hi Bill,

Are you not able to see the photos? 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, December 5, 2020 8:54 AM

Wow!  I had thought that this thread was laid to rest years ago, but am thrilled that it is back.  I would love to see your current work!

I have also used the pattern maker wheel to create "rivets" in copper tape with some success and some failures. It requires patience and a good eye. But, it certainly adds to the overall appearance if done well. Keep an easy hand.

I have two of the Scientific kits of the Thermopylae that I acquired over several years. I also have the Mantua/Sergal 1/120 kit as well, which is a nice model.  I love the look of that ship, and I love the name.  She is close to the head of the line for my building projects.

Also, I once had the old Imai kit labelled as Thermopylae but it was simply a reboxing of the old Revell small-scale Cutty Sark.  I remember thinking that I expected more from Imai . . .

Please keep us posted on your progress!

Bill

  • Member since
    June 2019
Posted by mwe056 on Friday, December 4, 2020 6:59 PM

 

Hi,

Yes Im still working on it. I had to put it away for a while but im back at it now.

I had port side about 1/3 done with the plating and found I had all my angles wrong so I had to strip all the plating off and start from scratch. I think its coming out decent enough. I am halfway through the starboard side now. I counted just shy of 400 pcs per side.

Cutting them to angle in and molding each pc to fit the contor of the hull at the same time.. this is HARD lol 

Begining of starboard side

Begining of starboard side | Matthew England | Flickr

 

Starboard side continued

Starboard side continued | Matthew England | Flickr

 

Port side

Port side | Matthew England | Flickr

 

Port side keel

Port side keel | Matthew England | Flickr

 

Port side displayed | Matthew England | Flickr

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Tuesday, January 28, 2020 10:00 AM

Curious to know what the model is. Is it a wood model? Scratchbuilt or from a kit?

Or is it the Revell plastic one?

This sounds like a nice project.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    January 2020
Posted by benmor91 on Tuesday, January 28, 2020 7:33 AM

Hi there,

Can I ask if you are still working on this project? It would be great to see how you progressed. I have had an inherited ship passed down from my grandfather and after years of irritating research today I found out that it is the Thermopylae.

The ship has been bashed about, abused, covered in paint etc before it was given to me (20 years of abuse through sitting in a shed unfortunately) and I would love to restore the boat, and perhaps even improve some of the minor inconsistencies between his rendition and the original ship (such as restoring the green paint, over the black and beige paint seen in most models).

I'm a keen woodworker (hobbyist) but have never really done any model making per se so exciting but worrying. He had produced it fully rigged (with the sails made from his own shirt) but the rigging (and learning about each of the lines) does have me a bit worried... Also in response to photo hosting, Imgur is free and easy to use.

  • Member since
    June 2019
Posted by mwe056 on Monday, June 24, 2019 7:36 PM

I appreciate both of yours quick response. I do have scale drawings and they measure out to roughly 1:120 +/- so I'm good. Had one one of those "oh no, did I just screw up?" moments lol

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Monday, June 24, 2019 11:08 AM

Yes you need to use a link to a host site. We all pretty much hate Photobucket as they attempted to extort us all for $ 400 a year several years ago. I immediately downloaded all of my images while I still could and moved them to Fotki. $ 24 a year, NO adds.

Others use other sites. I wish I could get Google to work, but it doesn't seem to for that use.

Measure sailing ship dimensions is hard. Didn't your model come with scaled drawings? As pointed out, model companies usuallly state the overall length including any boats at the stern the spars at the bow etc.  simply because it makes you think it's a really big model.

Overall legths in ships can be the waterline length, which can vary depending on the weight aboard; the port tax length, the actual longest hull dimension, etc.

When possible, I try to use the width of the hull at it's widest point. While it's a smaller dimension and therefore has a larger % of error possible, it's usually pretty obvious what to measure.

Assuming you have drawings to scale and the model in hand, measure something on the drawing and measure the model against it and that'll get you what you need. If you measure three things- height from bottom of the keel to the lowest point of the deck; the overall width; and the overall length at whatever points you choose: you will almost certainly get three different scales. Then it's up to you to decide what's the best obne for you, and visually.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Tampa, Florida, USA
Posted by steves on Monday, June 24, 2019 10:15 AM

It's not your math that's wrong, but I believe your overall length for the ship is incorrect.  I am assumimg the OAL of 31" for the model is to figure the shelf space required and is therefore measured from the tip of the bowsprit to the end of the spanker boom.  Per David MacGregor's sail plan of Thermopylae this should be about 292', not 212'. This produces a scale of 1/113.  The kit could be 1/120, which would result in an overall length of about 29" and they are saying 31" to be safe, or it could be the kit is "box scale" and 1/113 best fit their standard box size.  Anyway, because spar dimensions can change over a ship's life, using OAL is not the best way to calculate the scale.  The length of the hull would be much more usefull.  The length of Thermopylae's hull, again from MacGregor's plans, from beakhead to the stern was about 225'.

HTH.

Steve Sobieralski, Tampa Bay Ship Model Society

  • Member since
    June 2019
Posted by mwe056 on Sunday, June 23, 2019 11:32 PM

Doing some quick math AFTER I purchased the hull plating I calculated my model is actually 1:82 scale not 1:120. This does not seem to correspond with other info I have found. I have found multiple references to a 1:96 scale at a total length of 35" and a 1:120 scale at 31". Mine is 31". Is my math wrong and I bought the wrong hull plating? 212'x12"=2544"/31"=1:82. There is no stated scale anywhere on the box or paperwork inside

  • Member since
    June 2019
Posted by mwe056 on Sunday, June 23, 2019 9:22 PM

I bought a 0.005"(0.127mm) thick roll of copper and a star wheel "rivet maker" 24dpi(1.054dpm) because I couldnt find a 12dpi (2.108dpm). I took the edge of my 1x2x3"(25x50x75mm) balsa wood block sanding block(with no sandpaper on it) and smoothed out the test sheet. It came out pretty good (see photo below). 

Unfortunatly my die cutter wont do templates small as 15/64"x15x32"(6x12mm) for the individual panels and when I tried to cut them manualy, I couldn't remove the lip on the edges to get them to fit together properly and look right.

I thought about forming a entire sheet of copper to the contour of the hull but the angles would make it nearly impossible.

I bit the bullet and bought 1100 pcs of hull plating. I would have rather made it myself but I guess it will take some more experimentation. I will figure it out for the next build...

Is there a better way to upload images except crappy PhotoBucket? I tried direct from my hard drive but it wouldnt let me. Seems to only allow a http link???

Test piece

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, June 19, 2019 11:34 PM

Could be but if you use the tape, the sticky side won't let you roll over it and the backer before you remove it is too thick.

The nails used were flat headed anyways.

I look forward to seeing your build. I was a model railroader as well for many years and I like to figure out how to make stuff. It sounds like you do as well.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    June 2019
Posted by mwe056 on Wednesday, June 19, 2019 8:17 PM

Thats a good idea. Creat the dimples then flip it over, take a rolling pin and lightly roll the top of the dimple to flatten it back out slightly, creating the rivet heads. Hadn't thought of that.  

Thanks for the tips. I will post more pics as I go BeerYes

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, June 19, 2019 6:52 PM

Sauron

 

 
GMorrison

I wouldn't bother with the nails. It's a lot of work and there are a lot of them. You can go over the plates with a pin and make little dimples.

 

 

 

I use a sewing pattern tracing wheel to make the dimples.  They are cheap and diffenent manufacturers have different spike spacing.  Get one that has about the spacing you need.  Makes quick work of it.

 

 

That's a good idea. I have something similar for making "rivets" in bare metal foil. Not all that cheap. I'm actually unhappy with it. It is photo etched and try as I can, I cannot get the attachment points to the fret  entirely filed down as they are on the ends of four teeth. The things show up every ten rivets when I use it. Sewing store it is.

To mwe056: your other questions about planking. You can plank the outside of the hull. If you do, you'll need to plank it all the way down to the keel in order to avoid a "step" where the copper starts.

Another easier way is to fill the wood hull and sand it really smooth. That'll look as good as anything.

I would not worry about the extra thickness of the deck planking either. I carefully mark out where all of the deck houses and other stuff like winches go, then cut and install a base in those locations with the same thickness of wood sheet as your planks. It makes the plank job look nice and neat.

It is typical of solid hull sailing ship kits that the bulwarks are way too thick. You can easily fix that with a chisel. Mount the hull solidly and work your way around the inside until the bulwarks are reduced to what you want. Your ship is a composite clipper. That means that the frames are made of iron, planked with wood. If you look at onboard photos of the Cutty Sark, you'll see that the bulwarks are supported by iron stanchions, not thick wood ones.

Here's what your ship would look like "undressed".

That's the Ambassador, which used to be on the beach down in TdF.

Have fun with the model and ask all the questions you have. I don't have too many answers, but other folks will.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: Mordor
Posted by Sauron on Tuesday, June 18, 2019 7:46 AM

GMorrison

I wouldn't bother with the nails. It's a lot of work and there are a lot of them. You can go over the plates with a pin and make little dimples.

 

I use a sewing pattern tracing wheel to make the dimples.  They are cheap and diffenent manufacturers have different spike spacing.  Get one that has about the spacing you need.  Makes quick work of it.

 

"One Ring to Rule Them All, One Ring to Find Them, One Ring to Bring Them All, and in the Darkness Bind Them."
  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Tuesday, June 18, 2019 12:53 AM

I can offer a few guesses.

Maybe the scale is 1/100. I couldn't find it, and the drawings have a graphic scale, but lets assume that's it.

Nice model, BTW.

The hull was probably plated with Muntz metal, which is a more yellow brass color than copper. But you'll probably be forced to use a copper color.

If I recall, the plates are on the order of 9" x 48". That'd be 3/32" x 1/2" at scale.

Look for copper tape in the various stained glass supply sites.

I wouldn't bother with the nails. It's a lot of work and there are a lot of them. You can go over the plates with a pin and make little dimples.

Yes, planking the deck would greatly improve the look of the model. You can buy strips of basswood from Blue Jacket Shipcrafters. 9" planking would be 3/32". 6" planking would be 1/16". 

The planking would have a staggered pattern. The joints fall on deck beams, which have an even spacing. The decking at the edges probably terminated at a waterway, it does on Cutty Sark. Thats an iron gutter painted white. Don't worry about the "joggling", where the ends of the planks are fitted into a perimeter plank that has long notches cut into it.

 

 

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    June 2019
Posted by mwe056 on Thursday, June 13, 2019 11:47 PM

Hi,

This is a many years late reply and I hope someone sees it. I just started to build a Scientific model of the Thermopylae (kit 182) from 1973 and its now 2019. I am a model train builder and this is my first ship so cut me some slack haha. I am extemely detail oriantated so a few years to do this right doesnt bother me. Please excuse any laymens terms.

I know the original plans for this ship no longer exist and every model has been adapeted from the Cutty. Some not so well. There are very few original photos of the ship that give some detail but most information is all second and third hand with "best guesses" with a lot of it compairing to the Cutty.

I have read throught as many posts and viewed as many photos as I can find. I would like to make this ship as acurate and detailed as possible without putting it in a musuem. So here are my questions to begin with:

Copper hull plating

  • what gauge or thickness should I use for it to be to scale and where can I find it
  • where can I get tacks for the plating that will be to scale
  • what length should each plating panel be

Upper hull

  • Deep, dark green (like algie) or lighter, moss green
  • Smooth or planked
  • If planked, how do I properly simulate that on a carved hull

Main Deck

It doesnt appear I can simulate actual deck planking without actually laying plank. If I need to lay planking, what accomidations do I need to consider to keep the scale correct? Specifically, around the edges of the ship with the railings. Do I need to sand down the top of the deck another 0.5 mm?

Thank for your help. I will be asking more questions along the way

                                 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Thursday, October 18, 2012 10:56 AM

I have aready started my savings account for the Bluejacket Alabama and Kearsarge that will be released in time for the 150th anniversary of the battle.  I tried rebuilding the Revell Alabama into her true self, but the hull shape and dimensions issues stopped me cold.

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Tampa, Florida, USA
Posted by steves on Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:14 AM

Converting the Revell Alabama into an accurate replica of the real ship is probably a more difficult task than converting the Cutty Sark into an accurate Thermopylae, but it can be done.  Bowcock's Anatomy would be your best source, but it is apparently OOP and pretty expensive these days.  Fine Arts Models offers a model of the ship and their site has some photos you might find helpful:

http://www.fineartmodels.com/fineartmodels.com/Alabama.html:

Steve Sobieralski, Tampa Bay Ship Model Society

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