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Need help on painting/weathering techniques

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  • Member since
    December 2010
  • From: Salem, Oregon
Need help on painting/weathering techniques
Posted by 1943Mike on Tuesday, November 13, 2012 7:25 PM

OK, I've read many, many pages of threads on the above subject but nowhere do I find specific, very detailed descriptions (preferably with photos or, even better, with video) on certain techniques for weathering the hull and painting the decks. Yes, I have read Jake Groby's essay on the subject. I even called him on his cell phone a week or two ago to ask him a question about which he was gracious enough to give me an answer (since it was during his working hours and he doesn't know me from Adam. He was in his car at the time).

Any of you who have some experience doing what I've not been able to do, please chime in and let me know what you think I should be doing differently or if I shouldn't attempt some of these techniques at all.

Unfortunately I just don't seem to be able to get any of the beautiful hull and/or deck painting/weathering techniques to work for me. I'm starting to think that I just don't have the required skill set for the kind of modeling that I often admire on this forum. However, I will trudge on! I'm going to include a bit of the build log I thought about keeping (I'm having second thoughts on that) so that you might understand some of my frustration.

December 31, 2011

In the last week I've painted the bulwarks white. I then decided to cut off the triangular gussets that support the bulwarks and will eventually use wire to represent the "A"-shaped iron stanchions that actually do that job on the CS. This required that I do sanding and grinding with my Dremel tool. It's a rough job but most of the roughness on the inside of the bulwarks where I sanded/ground the triangular gussets off will be underneath pinrails - some of which will have coils of rope around the pins so what's below the rails probably won't show. I've put on about 3 coats of flat white paint on the bulwarks so far. Lots of overpainting but I'll be taking care of what will show later.

One unfortunate result of my using my Dremel to cut out and grind the bulwarks free of the triangular gussets is that I ground out some sections of the waterways (the edges of the deck next to the bulwarks) so that I'll have to use some putty to fill in the gaps when the time comes to attach the deck sections. Although the waterways have white paint on them in the picture below, they will be painted red (a sort of salmon/rust color red) in the finished model.

November 13, 2012

I used Testors 1/4 oz. little square bottle to paint the coppered portion of the hull several months ago. I then attempted (just a couple of weeks ago) to use Jake Groby's method for weathering the copper. I used Floquil antique white and light green to do exactly as he said. When I went to gently rub off the still damp paint with an old t-shirt (suggested by Jake as an answer to my question as to what I should do where he says: "...wash the paint down with ONLY turpentine,..") and, even though I thought I was rubbing very gently, lots of the copper paint (which had been dry for months) was rubbed off. Total failure!!

I then repainted the coppering and, after it dried (48hrs.) I tried using my arist acrylic paints to attempt the same effect. I figured water couldn't wash away the enamel paint. I was WRONG!! Big sections of black hull reappeared. I was bummed.

I've since given up on the weathering idea for the Muntz Metal hull. I've just repainted the coppering (this time using Floquil copper enamel paint).

I also tried and failed to bring out the detail of the planking on the deck sections using the technique of first spray painting with black, then, when the paint is dry, painting with Armor Sand. After the Armor Sand had dried, I took a medium steel wool and gently tried to work away enough paint so the detail showed through. Another complete disaster!! Some sections were not worked away at all and others were too black. I tried it once more (repainting both colors after having tried to get most of the paint off. Still did not work for me. Now there's no detail left on the decks (just on the roofs of the cabins which I'd not gotten to at first). Again, it's probably my lousy technique but, needless to say, I'm very disappointed. I've given up on that step and simply painted the decks and cabin roofs a shade of light/medium gray that I hope represents weathered teak.

All suggestions, comments, criticisms, will be gratefully stored away for my next build.

Mike

Mike

"Le temps est un grand maître, mais malheureusement, il tue tous ses élèves."

Hector Berlioz

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Towson MD
Posted by gregbale on Tuesday, November 13, 2012 8:32 PM

Just a question, Mike--did you wash the parts thoroughly before you started painting? If acrylics manged to take off well-dried enamels, it sounds like maybe the mold-release agents from the manufacturing process were keeping your paints from getting a good "bite" on the hull. A good primer coat helps with that as well.

As for your other difficulties, I've had better luck with washes and drybrushing than with paint removal techniques like sanding through the topcoat. I generally use a home-made acrylic "sludge wash" (with a heavy dish-soap component) over either enamels or well-sealed (with Future) Tamiya acrylics. It's easy to rub off with q-tips leaving recessed detail accented, and if you just don't like how it's working out, you can wash it off and start over.

As for what you should try or not try, don't be afraid to try anything. It sounds like a platitude, but the experience of trying stuff is what it's all about. All the desctriptions or instructional videos in the world can't substitute for hands-on experience. When things go bad, just take a deep breath, and come back for another try. It'll fall into place eventually.

Good luck.

Greg

George Lewis:

"Every time you correct me on my grammar I love you a little fewer."
 
  • Member since
    December 2010
  • From: Salem, Oregon
Posted by 1943Mike on Tuesday, November 13, 2012 10:08 PM

Thanks Greg, I appreciate the information which I'll keep for the next build.

Mike

Mike

"Le temps est un grand maître, mais malheureusement, il tue tous ses élèves."

Hector Berlioz

  • Member since
    September 2011
  • From: Medford, OR
Posted by OMCUSNR on Friday, November 16, 2012 6:29 PM

Mike,

It's been more than 40 years since I last did the Revel Constitution, but.....  It looks to me like you are not using an airbrush for some of this?  Many of these techniques work best when used in tandem with thin layers of overcoats and VERY FINE ABRASIVES.  I'd use nothing higher than 4ought (0000) steel wool and nothing more aggressive than 600 wet sandpaper for removing overcoats.  Usually the most wear is in the highest traffic patterns on decks, so getting into tight corners is not all that critical.

In the case of solvents, it's best if you follow the "hottest" first rule.  Use a lacquer for the base coat, then enamel, then acrylics.  As was mentioned, it's a good idea to wash & dry to remove any stray grease/oil, then wipe down with a tack rag, then spray a primer, then the base color in lacquer.  This will provide the toughest paint surface to do additional weathering over.  next would be to use enamels / mineral spirits thinner (or turpentine), then acrylics with water/alcohol thinners.  In many cases, washes are thin enough to be wiped off with a clean rag, streaked with brushes and allowed to dry.  Sometimes, it's a good idea to clear coat with pledge (& dry 48 to 72 hours) before adding layers of weathering.

Keep experimenting.  It's a good idea to have a paint mule or three laying around to practice on too.

HTH,

Reid

Grumman Iron Works Fan.

"Don't sweat the small stuff.  And.... it's ALL small stuff, until you hear INCOMING!!!!!!"

  • Member since
    December 2010
  • From: Salem, Oregon
Posted by 1943Mike on Friday, November 16, 2012 10:16 PM

Reid,

Thanks for the input. I'm learning that, if I want to do any of the techniques that I've thought looked so good on these plastic models, I need to follow some of the advise you and Greg have mentioned. As to paint "mules" .... none yet, but goodness knows at the rate I'm going I'll sure have some soon :)

Mike

Mike

"Le temps est un grand maître, mais malheureusement, il tue tous ses élèves."

Hector Berlioz

  • Member since
    August 2009
  • From: Lund, Sweden
Posted by denstore on Sunday, November 18, 2012 5:13 AM

Did you use primer? In my experience, it is always better to start with a primed surface, especially if you want to do lots of weathering effects.

Better an airbrush in the hand, than ten in the car....Stick out tongue

  • Member since
    December 2010
  • From: Salem, Oregon
Posted by 1943Mike on Sunday, November 18, 2012 11:17 AM

Denstore,

Nope, no primer. No airbrush, No darned technique .... yetBig Smile

Like I said, this information, most of which is new to me, will be stored for my next build. I may have to buy another Cutty Sark some day just to see if I can implement some of the methods you and others have suggested above on that ship.

Basically I've just been painting on the colors without washing or priming the plastic first. I don't own a compressor or an airbrush. Since I live in a small condo/townhouse I don't want the noise although I've read that there are quiet compressors made specifically for modeling.

With careful washing and priming of the plastic before I attempt final painting I suppose I'd have better luck. I also will follow the suggestions above with regard to the kind of sandpaper to use.

Thanks for chiming in.

Mike

Mike

"Le temps est un grand maître, mais malheureusement, il tue tous ses élèves."

Hector Berlioz

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Sunday, November 18, 2012 10:13 PM

Mike,

You might what to think about using ELO (Easy Lift Off), not the band, on your Cutty Sark, and start again. starting over is not as Hard as you think.  it gives you a chance to work on your technique again since you do not having mules by the sound of it. also, think about picking up some inexpensive models of a smaller scale or small ships of a large scale.  for instance, the Revell Viking ship or the Revell Hanse Kogge.  Both have excellent grain and are fairly simple but involves all the components you will end up Using on your Cutty Sark.  

I too got back into modeling a couple of years ago after a 40 year hiatus and I have the 1/96 Cutty Sark, Thermopylae, USS Constitution, 1/100 HMS Victory and Soliel Royal, and La Reale as well as other expensive large scale models that I was sorely tempted to jump right in on but I took Jtilley's advice and started small and inexpensive so that I could practice my chops on building, painting, weathering and rigging before I started in on those big kits.  I am glad I did.

Anyway, ELO Is manufactured by Testor but formally by PolyScale.  Read the directions thoroughly because it is nasty stuff but it works.  I had to let my hulls soak longest for the Floquil.  I used an old toothbrush to get all the paint off.  DO NOT let the smaller parts soak very long as they will end up either soften or melted.  Wear old clothes you do not mind ruining and be careful while scrubbing as it can get everywhere.  I have used it on a couple of my models that I was not happy with the paint jobs/colors.

After you get the paint off, let the parts soak in warm water with dish soap for about 30 minutes.  Then Let air dry and then use Testor's Plastic prep and wipe the whole model down with it.  After that let dry for about 5 days then use a good primer lie Tamiya's fine primer.

I also wanted to let you know that when I do decks, If I am doing the weathering effect you were asking about, I use a scrubbing pad like the one below.  Use it lightly and it won't mar your decks, otherwise use 0000 steel wool with dish soap wet. Again, very lightly.  It is easier to take plastic away when sanding, scraping, etc... And very hard to replace it.

Hope some of this helps, and please feel free to ask if anything is not clear.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    December 2010
  • From: Salem, Oregon
Posted by 1943Mike on Monday, November 19, 2012 9:13 AM

Steve,

Thank you so much for the very specific tutorial! That's the kind of useful information that registers in my old brain.

Your reference to the Electric Light Orchestra was a flashback Smile to my twenties!! 

I don't want to be too paranoid about the Easy Lift Off but are a respirator and gloves required? Would I need to do this in a bathroom or kitchen sink? Would ELO eat away the enamel of my bathroom sinks or mar the stainless steel of my kitchen sinks? Just curious.

In any case, thanks again for the most useful info. It's filed away.

I don't believe there's any detail left on the decks of my Cutty Sark so I'll not bother to strip the paint I have on her now.

I have now in my stash Revell's Wasa and Charles W. Morgan as well as Heller's Le Glorieux and Preussen. Before I consider attempting any of those I'll do what you suggest and what I know I should have done from John Tilley's advise and buy a couple of small models - whether or not I ever display them is of no consequence - to use as test mules for the techniques of which we speak. I suppose the Viking Ship would be good to start. The Revell Hanse Kogge is not listed on Revell's site so I suppose it's no longer manufactured but I'll look for one on eBay.

Thanks again Steve,

Mike

Mike

"Le temps est un grand maître, mais malheureusement, il tue tous ses élèves."

Hector Berlioz

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Wednesday, November 21, 2012 9:24 PM

Mike, Email me at jbgroby@charter.net  send me your phone number or call me Friday

 

 

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