Gleaves class destroyer

" I will try not priming PE. Does that include the Chinese stuff? My Bronco Ting Yuen came with a super thin clear film on one side of the PE that I didn't even see until I primed the fret. What a mess!"

You know, I'm not sure.  As an American photo etch designer, I can only speak for certain about work done in the US.  The photo etch I use has always either been my own or by companies I know are from the US by coincidence.  I would assume (you know what they about that) the EPA must put the same regulations on imported items.  Maybe someone in the know can answer with certainty.  If you want to make sure the photo etch is free from contaminants, give the fret a five minute soak in Acetone.

You'll have to learn by trial and error.

It does involve a lot of back and forth. If you paint the PE on the fret, you need to go back and touch up the cuts. That's fine and part of the process, and will get you to thinking that if YOU were the fret designer, YOU would have put the attachment points in entirely different locations.

If you cut the parts off the fret first and then paint them, you eliminate that problem, but they have to be held onto. I often stick them down on the sticky side of a piece of tape that I've either taped or pinned to my painting surface.

If the PE is one sided, and a lot of it is, like watertight doors, ladders, hatches, hull fittings etc. it makes all the sense in the world to glue them onto the bulkheads, hull, deck or whatever and paint it as an assembly.

So it all depends on the circumstances.

And yes on railings, I paint them after cutting off of the fret, usually before bending, and then glue them on. That means a little touch up at the bends. But railing parts are usually big enough to hold onto while painting.

I'll throw in one more piece of my own advice about railings, that will probably provoke more discussion.

I never join them at the corners, always somewhere in the middle of a straight run. Many reasons for that. First, the part then has rigidity and will stand up on it's own. Second, to do a corner right as a joint, you need to cut off the end stanchion on one side, letting the horizontal bars run "bitter". And if you study the railings on a ship, they really are interrupted all the time with stuff like mooring cleats, gun shields, ladders, piping and all the other stuff that clutters up decks. And the stanchions rarely march along in perfect order, except for the main deck lifelines (more on that in a sec.).A little planning ahead can make that work for you.

I mainly model pre-dreadnaught ships, which did have pipe railings of the two bar variety all over the place, or chain. A big World War 2 ship, on the other hand, usually had a system of collapsible stanchions all around the main deck that the deck department set up and ran line through, or took down for battle so that it didn't get burned up. Which meant that the stanchions would be dark blue, but the line is gray or tan. I made an attempt to replicate that on my heavy cruiser, and am pleased with the results. I painted the PE tan, and painted the stanchions blue by making a puddle of blue paint on the bench (on a piece of tape), and dipping the edge of a #11 into it and pressing down on the stanchion. Went quickly.

Good conversation and I'm learning a lot. I will try not priming PE. Does that include the Chinese stuff? My Bronco Ting Yuen came with a super thin clear film on one side of the PE that I didn't even see until I primed the fret. What a mess!

One other thing, I find construction is best handled if you think "up and out."

Don't put fragile stuff on the deck edges, for example, before you've put the pieces behind and below on. That way you're less likely to damage things reaching in.

So I start with the hull, then add the deck houses. Once the main structural pieces are on I paint those, and when that's done I start adding the detail pieces and more fragile stuff.

Measure 21 was officially released in June of 1942, but its use dates back to late 1941 as "Measure 11 with Navy Blue instead of Sea Blue." It was the camouflage measure of choice for the Pacific Fleet for most of the war (some dazzle schemes in late 1943 & 1944). Ships that were built on the Atlantic coast were typically painted in Measure 12 modified, and then repainted to Measure 21 when transferred to the Pacific fleet when the scheduled allowed (some remained in Ms 12 Mod for months, others repainted almost immediately).

The guy you really need to talk to is Rick Davis, he hangs out on Tim's site and the SteelNavy message board. I'd advocate checking out the "Calling all Benson/Gleaves Class Fans!" thread on Tim's site as Rick has been very active there and there's tons of information stored in the 40-some-odd pages.

GMorrison.

I read somewhere that Measure 21 only became common during 1943. Perhaps I interpreted what I read wrongly.

I also have since talked to my friend whose dad was killed aboard DD-485 at the Battle of Cape Esperance and he - who has written a book about it and is searching for a publisher - said: " I'm vague about what color she was when, because she was painted and repainted at least nine times in a year and twice within 24 hours!" He's told me that if he finds out what it was he'll call me and let me know. Since I'm not going to be starting this for at least 6 months (more likely a year) that's fine.

Perhaps I'll go with Measure 21 after all - i'll not worry about it for now.

Rusty White and Timothy Dike,

Thank you both for your help and encouragement. I'm now looking forward to building her even more .

Mike

Mike don't be too intimidated by the kit. It has many fine parts, but you don't have to use them all. Some of the PE parts are optional upgrades for the plastic parts. The doors, bridge wing supports, and 20 mm gun shields are supplied in plastic and will still look good. You can leave the gun sights and seats off of the 20 mm and 1.1" guns and they will still look better than anything else on the market. The other parts are pretty easy to locate and attach. I would suggest using wood glue on the PE as it is tacky and gives you time to get them located.

The Buchanan and Duncan were built to the same set of plans and the only thing you really need to do different for that ship is use the alternate searchlight platform that is also on that parts sprue. Duncan was painted in MS-21 when she sailed for the SW Pacific so the paint job should be relatively painless.

As far as fit goes, there are a few fit issues with the kit. The forward part of the mid superstructure needs to be sanded a bit to fit properly to the forward deck. Check the build threads on the forum at ModelWarships.com for some help. There are many and you can get a lot of tips there.

I personally wouldn't suggest priming PE before application.  Every layer of paint or primer applied will flake away when you bend the parts.  Plus the fact that primer would thicken the parts (that's what it's designed to do), just doesn't suggest it's a good idea.  ALL photo etched parts are cleaned thoroughly at the manufacturer (per EPA requirement), so there's no need to primer.  I have been designing and using photo etched parts since their invention, and never had a problem with paint sticking.  Every bend will cause paint flaking and require touch ups as you go, but that's the nature of the beast.  All the primer in the would will not change that.

Like primering, brush painting PE parts will thicken them considerably and fill in small details, so I recommend airbrushing the entire fret with the most prevalent color of the ship with a THIN coat.  Then leave only the other colors to brush painting with THIN paint.

Painting PE after application is a royal pain.  I personally never understood why people do that, but that's me.  It works for some folks, so power to them.  Painting railing for example, that is close to a bulkhead is nearly impossible to paint the inside facing the bulkheads in spots.

Hiding super glue spots is super easy.  After the model is completed (I mean DONE), I spray the entire model with a THIN coat of clear dull coat.  This gives an even finish to every part of the model and hides any shiny spots.

That's how "I" do it on my models.  As you have read others do it differently.  If you have more questions about PE, check out my web site.  I sell a cool "how to" CD called working with Photo Etched Parts.  You may find it helpful.  As was so eloquently put, "to each modeler his or her own preference".

Rusty White

Flagship Models Inc.

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Why wasn't she Measure 21? There's a number of pictures I have seen taken in the week before she was sunk that look like a well worn 21 to me, but not a patterned camouflage. Anyways, to each modeler his or her own preference.

Brush paint is a great way to go, but do your prime coat with a rattle can. I use Tamiya white for this type of thing, but any other good lacquer like Krylon will be fine. Just go light so you don't get runs. Just make sure the primer color is different than the color coat, otherwise it's hard to judge coverage.

Prime the PE before you apply it, Pre paint it the color coat if it's a different color than the structure it's mounted to, otherwise paint it after gluing it on. That helps hide the glue.

I've just read Charles Landrum's review of the Dragon Gleason class kit and I must say I'm intimidated. I will not be put off however as this is to be a gift to a friend.

I've never even seen PE much less used it and it's been over fifty years since I built any warships (other than my recent build of the USS Constitution in my avatar). Would some of you please explain the correct order of build if I'm going to paint my model (as the USS Duncan DD-485) with Measure 12 as seen here: http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/hi-res/NH%2097000/NH%2097800.jpg (BTW, I realize that Measure 21 would be easier but the USS Duncan was sunk at the Battle of Cape Esperance on October 12, 1942 and it's my understanding that she probably would not have used the over-all blue color scheme).  

What order of construction to I plan? I'm going to brush paint since I don't own an airbrush and I will be using LifeColor acrylics. I've also ordered the GMM PE set to augment or substitute parts from the kit's PE set. When do I paint all the tiny little parts? Where do I paint them - on the sprues?

Any help would be appreciated.

Mike

tankerbuilder

our decks were what you could call DARK CADET BLUE(meaning the same shade as the MIDDIES blue blouses at the ACADEMY )

No, I would not call it Dark Cadet Blue, I would call it Deck Blue, which was in use even after the war ended as the Navy tried to use up stocks. Here's my deal: the Navy had STANDARDS. Yes, there was deviation from these; different batches of paint have variance and the paint changes with age, so you will see differences in paint color even today. But, they all start from something that is CLOSE to a standard color and formula.

Civilian paints have no such standards. Two companies may have a "Navy Blue" color, but they're not formulated to the same STANDARD, they just have a dark blue that they call "Navy Blue." I have no problem with someone using the "wrong" Navy Blue if it suits them - I firmly believe this is a hobby and you should paint you ship in a way that you enjoy. But, when someone comes asking for paint advice, I think they should at least have the opportunity to get both sides and choose for themselves.

"Here is the accurate start that you can then weather and fade as desired, if desired. Or just find something that looks good to you and have at it!"

TRACY

Hi,you know I consider you one of my go to reasearchers.Here,s one for you.When aboard the U.S.S.OZBOURN -D D 846-She got painted  lot ! After all we were flag,so we had to look sharp.I couldn,t help but notice our decks were what you could call DARK CADET BLUE(meaning the same shade as the MIDDIES blue blouses at the ACADEMY )

 Which was actually a dark blue grey. I think we must pause and reflect here. Aircraft and ARMOR modelers are on the mark here.We must paint and allow for scale variance in color. This is NOT an easy task.I did the U.S.S.BUCKLEY in that so called blue that was called for.I know colors can affect the eye,s perception of shade and size.

 The 1/350 model looks almost the same size as my 1/700 when viewed from a distance. Why? well it,s called color distortion.It,s a normal occurance.I do know that in ships that small(destroyers anyway) I will now stick to haze grey for them from now on. OH,I enjoyed the discussion on the previous post about the ARIZONA.     TANKER-builder

There was a lot of variation to paint back in WWII, and deck paint tended to get beat to snot.  The colors you mention are certainly more true for today's paint. Depth chargers were painted tp match camouflage, but there was variety and some times operational tempo or conditions precluded repainting. There are some color photos of Buchanan in her Measure 12 Mod on this Navy Historical Center web page and this photo in particular shows a bit of what the deck looked like after a bit of time at sea.

Mr White,

You are correct, I cannot support that a very dark grey, like gunship is historically, or scale-effect accurate.  I should have said, that I like the look that results from using that sort of color.

Paint Geek here - CapnMac82, what evidence do you have that non-skid in WWII matched gunship gray?

Your characterization of Measure 12 Modified is in error, I recommend this page for reference.

CapnMac82

It's good to remember that things get replaced and repaired while underway.   So, there can be shades of the same color, or ad hoc hues made up from stores.

 

Another detail that old salts will spot with a smile is to paint a small area in red lead and just leave it with moderately-neat edges

And I second that with said smile, CapnMac.  Once, on Ranger's portside island, there was a very large red lead peace sign painted by someone who shall be remain nameless, that was in full view of all on the flight deck for about two days before it was painted over in haze gray. Then it was a fresh haze gray peace sign over the older gray and could still be seen for months.

Capnmac82,

Thanks a bunch! I've added this thread to favorites in my browser and I am sure it'll be my "go to" source of painting info.

GMorrison,

Great looking model! Yes, I'm sure it'll seem dark compared to other eras but accuracy is part of the game n'est-ce pas?

1943Mike

It's good to remember that things get replaced and repaired while underway.   So, there can be shades of the same color, or ad hoc hues made up from stores.

Historical anecdote--my grandfather was aboard a ship that had a deck which spanned tow deckhouses.  As the underside was not a deck, and it was "permanently in shadow" it had not been repainted in the change of Measure.  So, it stayed in 5-L through different Measures.  

This would be a subtle detail for the underside of a deck.  From the list, Duncan had commissioned in Ms 12 (Mod), so any of a number of greys could be used for the undersides of deck overhangs.

Another detail that old salts will spot with a smile is to paint a small area in red lead and just leave it with moderately-neat edges

I always assume that there was a store of paint in the locker for all things canvas- boat covers, dodgers, "blast" bags etc. It doesn't hurt (helps) to assign those items a color of their own, as CapnMac noted.

Note that 20-B and 5-N are distinctly different colors, for being an overall blue.

You will want to have a panzer grey and gunship grey for the non-skid areas of the deck.

I like gunship grey and schwwartzgrun for depth charges--dark but not black.

Good idea to arm yourself with faldblau and french "horizon blue"  to pick out things like canvas dodgers, fire hoses and the like.

The deck is "Deck Blue", color 20-B. What you'll get is a very dark blue gray ship, which is a bit of a shock to those of us who are used to light gray/ haze gray ships.

But that's how they looked in 1942. Here's my CA-38 USS San Francisco from the same battle.

Dreadnought52,

Thanks very much for the link . You guys are the greatest when it comes to providing information on ships.

1943Mike

Here is a source for the colors needed: www.shipcamouflage.com/benson_class.htm

Measure 21 would have been an overall 5N blue scheme.   Testors Modelmaster has the color in acrylic and White Ensign Models has it in enamel.  WS

Thanks GMorrison!

I just bought the kit.

Can you recommend the brand(s) and colors of paint that I should use when painting her? I obviously can't tell from a black and white photograph what color she was painted as she headed out to her doom. To my old eyes it doesn't look as if she had any camo painting - just straight gray or whatever color she would have been. Any help here?

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0548503.jpg

1943Mike

Easy. The Dragon USS Buchanan DD 484 is almost identical to Duncan DD 485.

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