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Schooner model choices

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  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, November 6, 2013 11:56 PM

jtilley

One weakness of all the fishing schooner kits we've talked about concerns the dories.  There should be a stack of six on each side of the maindeck.  Ronnberg's plans don't hint at them.  The cast dories in both the MS and BJ kits are pretty blobby.  I've been mulling over some ideas for making them out of either holly veneer or Bristol board - or maybe sheet styrene.  A nice set of dories is just about essential for a good model of a fishing schooner, and at 1/8"=1' they're pretty tiny. 

There are a total of four in the Elsie kit. And they scale about 16 feet long where they should be 18 to 20 feet long, and are indeed blobby.

I've given it some thought. Now mind, that Cup racer is going to keep me busy for a little while, but here's the thinking.

There needs to be two dories modeled, overlapping strakes or flush.

There needs to be two interiors of dories, thwarts shipped and foot boards.

There needs to be another six to eight sets of dory sides.

That shouldn't be too difficult- HAR!

I have a new favorite reference book- "Mystic Seaport Watercraft" by Bray. Fully five pages of info on their dory collection.

But of course the first footnote is for Chapelle's "American Small Sailing Craft". On order at Amazon as we text.

The Kniepad brothers are still installing deck on America. I'll go round tomorrow to see how that's going.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, November 6, 2013 1:30 AM

Pawel

GMorrison - congratulations on your buy. I even found instructions of the modern version of this kit:

I don't think I understand what you mean by asking what IS that boat - well it's a 1:50 scale model built out of "Artist in the Latrine" kit with lots of modifications to represent a pilot boat. I used the Model Shipways Katy instructions to get a better understanding how the rigging should be. I could easily see how the MS instructions were superior to the AL ones.

You answered the question as it's a boat of your own design. I couldn't find it in the AL catalog.

I like that fisherman. A pilot boat however usually has a simpler rig that's pretty much self tacking, but she's a fine ship.

All- I see that the Phantom can currently be had for movie ticket money.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    June 2013
  • From: Jax, FL
Posted by Viejo on Tuesday, November 5, 2013 11:22 PM
Knowing it's a pilot boat, a primary anchor would be stowed below along with the rode. However, as a pilot boat it will be a shallower draft vessel and able to anchor in more shallow water. With that in mind, were I skipper (and folks that have sailed with me know) getting close to shore, I might have a smaller hook and rode to hold until the primary were ready in an emergency. If she's shown underway, a clear foredeck would be "proper seamanship".

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Tuesday, November 5, 2013 11:20 PM

Hey, I call them as I see them (easier that way).

Naturally, since you ask, I cannot find either my Steele or the Bookmarks I was certain I had sotred away.   As a guess, 3 to 3.5' long--1m as a compromise.  

But, now that we know this is a pilot boat, that changes things a bit.

Pilot boats don't really anchor that often.  The job of the pilot boat is to luff about on station until a ship arrives, sail up alongside, and pass a pilot aboard.   When the boat was relieved (or all the pilots aboard were dispatched) the boat would return to Government Pier, or fetch up on a mooring buoy.  

In a slow port, were they might spend most of the time tied up to Government Pier, they'd only be lightly moored, the better to  be able to slip off and race out to meet an incoming ship.   Some pilot boats carried Customs and/or Excise personnel along, too.

So, as stated above, an anchor would be knocked down and stowed someplace handy.

These little (40-50' long) vessels were pretty "empty" below decks.   There will be "pilot berths" under the deck beams on either side of the deckhouses.  These will be about 30 x 30 x 72 inch spaces with  a pallet mattress of some sort.   Below the edge of the berth would be a settee and table, defined by the stove on one end, and the companionway ladder on the other.  The deckhouse will likely be the only "standing height" area below decks.  There's probably a good spot to stow an anchor and/or grapnel on either side of the main mast.

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Tuesday, November 5, 2013 1:08 PM

Gentlemen, thanks a lot for your advice!

GMorrison - congratulations on your buy. I even found instructions of the modern version of this kit:

naturecoast.com/.../ms2005.pdf

I don't think I understand what you mean by asking what IS that boat - well it's a 1:50 scale model built out of "Artist in the Latrine" kit with lots of modifications to represent a pilot boat. I used the Model Shipways Katy instructions to get a better understanding how the rigging should be. I could easily see how the MS instructions were superior to the AL ones.

CapnMAc - Thanks for your kind words. Well there's *something* like bitts on the rook of the bowsprit and there are also two hawse ports on the bow (not so good to see on the photo), also a cleat-like fixtures on the bulwarks - let's say it wasn't looking too bad to me at first. I modeled the "driver" or "fisherman spanker" as per the Model Shipways instructions. I made the sails myself, from scratch.

How big would a 200lb anchor be?

Viejo - thanks for your comment. Do you suggest I should just show the anchor "stowed" - so no sign of it around the deck? Maybe that would make sense - a pilot boat would probably be sailing freely or be moored alongside a pier most of the time?

Thanks a lot for your comments and have a nice day

Paweł

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, November 5, 2013 12:01 PM

Interesting.  It sounds like GMorrison got an Elsie kit from a short, transitional period in the history of Model Shipways.

I think the yellow box establishes that the kit was manufactured before the original company was sold to Model Expo.  I think that was in the very late seventies, but I'm not absolutely sure.  I seem to remember that, during that period, MS was starting to adopt Britannia metal rather than the older lead-bearing alloy for its fittings.    My memory is shaky, but I seem to recall John Shedd (one of the two original owners - and a first-rate gentleman) saying that they wanted to start the switch with fittings, such as deadeyes, that were "built in" to a model and couldn't be replaced if they got lead disease.  It was clear that Bluejacket's use of britannia was hurting MS's business, but switching over from the lead alloy was expensive.

My Elsie kit, which I bought last year, has the big, full-color box, the Ronnberg plans, a big instruction book by Ben Lankford (available online through the ME website), wood blocks, wood deadeyes (beautifully turned from what looks to be European walnut), and britannia castings.  (Britannia, by the way, is visually almost indistinguishable from lead alloy.)

My kit has no sail material, though the instruction book contains some hints on sailmaking.  (My ship will almost certainly have furled sails.)

Lead seems to be utterly unpredictable in its durability.  When I was working in a hobby shop (more years ago than I like to think about) I encountered lead model railroad fittings that had started to flower before we had time to sell them.  But I also have some old Model Shipways fittings that have been sitting in drawers in my shop for more than forty years, and look as good as new.  Luck of the draw, I guess.  It seems logical that if the fittings in a yellow-box MS kit haven't deteriorated by now, they probably won't.  But I wouldn't want to bet on that.

One weakness of all the fishing schooner kits we've talked about concerns the dories.  There should be a stack of six on each side of the maindeck.  Ronnberg's plans don't hint at them.  The cast dories in both the MS and BJ kits are pretty blobby.  I've been mulling over some ideas for making them out of either holly veneer or Bristol board - or maybe sheet styrene.  A nice set of dories is just about essential for a good model of a fishing schooner, and at 1/8"=1' they're pretty tiny. 

Fascinating stuff.  One very useful feature of the MS instruction book is the bibliography, which lists a number of old books that are long out of print.  With the exception of Cooke's Report on the Fisheries of the United States, I was able to track down used copies of all of them for very reasonable prices.  Albert Cook Church's American Fishermen and Dana Story's Frame Up are particularly good.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Monday, November 4, 2013 11:39 AM

I received the Model Shipways Elsie kit fr an eBay seller and it's a beaut, at least in the box.

one slight harrumph- the image poster on eBay is a photo of the ship which I took to indicate it being the newer issue, but opening the shipping box revealed a very worn yellow box.

However, inside that is a complete kit, and perhaps best of all the Ronnberg drawings. So I'm entirely happy with the whole affair.

These drawings are more than worth the price of the whole deal. I'm a real fan of the art, having done my apprentiship in the pre CAD era of architecture.

two hull and rigging drawings 18x24 and one machinery detail sheet 12x18. I seriously would recommend these drawings to anyone interested in schooners.

the blocks are wood, the deadeyes certainly Brittania, the other castings I cannot tell but I think are an older casting metal- dull dark gray.

cloth sails. 

As I am currently midway through laying deck on the America I've become something of a student of the subject. This boat has a foredeck and quarterdeck as well, separated by a grub beam. Here, the foredeck is planked straight, with the lines following the sheer, but the quarterdeck planking more genially follows the waterway lines outside of the deckhouses and sort of resolves itself to be straight in the center.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    June 2013
  • From: Jax, FL
Posted by Viejo on Sunday, November 3, 2013 10:25 PM

Fisherman anchors typically can come apart into three pieces for stowage below, as would go the anchor rode.  If the rode is part rope and part chain, the chain may be stowed in the bilge (alongside the anchor pieces).

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Sunday, November 3, 2013 9:16 PM

You've done a heck of a job on that kit--which the manufacturers have not helped you at all.

The plans have clearly been simplified as there are no freeing or limber ports, nor bitts and/or cleats to tie the ship to a pier or quay.  Which also means there's now hawse ports either (you would not want the anchor line taking the entire weight of the vessel to do so over the edge of the bulwark).

Despite the sail plan given, and the printing of the sails, that upper staysail (term-of-art is "driver" or "fisherman's spanker") is set "flying" the upper end to the peak of that flagstaff upper mast on the main, the other upper corner to the peak of the foremast.  (The blocks at the head of the foremast ought be, top to bottom:  Spanker halyard; gaff peak halyard, then gaff throat halyard.)

Even if we solve the riddle of how to get the anchor aboard, we are left with where do we stow a couple hundred fathoms (circa 4-500m) of anchor line, with the corollary issue of where to tie it off (other than lashing to the foremast*).

GM is correct, a tackle from the mast cringle would suffice--probably only needs to be a luff tackle as this size ship likely only needs 150-200# worth of anchor.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Sunday, November 3, 2013 7:28 PM

Pawel- a jumbo tackle from the foremast crosstrees probably would have worked ok as well. I can imagine the schooner rolled over a bit to help her crew.

For what it's worth, I'm reading up on Banks fishermen and they often just sailed over their anchors. They were in 40-60 or more fathom water, they had a really good idea of where they were on their charts from experience, soundings and bottom samples on their lead, so they weren't too concerned about fouling it if it were on a short cable. They moved around a lot, but didn't have to do so in a hurry, and were anchored while fishing if not trawlers.

What IS that boat?

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • From: San Antonio, Texas
Posted by Marcus McBean on Sunday, November 3, 2013 5:23 PM

Bluenose, isn't that the ship on the canadian dime?

  • Member since
    November 2010
Posted by john087 on Sunday, November 3, 2013 12:49 PM
I'm currently building the modelshipways schooner Bluenose. She's a Canadian flaggee fishing schooner. Plank in frame construction. It'sy first wood ship amd the plans are great. Can't comment on the other kits but I would recomend model shipways based on my experience so far with the bluenose.

Good luck

John

 

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Sunday, November 3, 2013 9:12 AM

CapnMac, thanks a lot for your answer!

We're talking here about a boat over a foot long in 1:50, the nationality is American and the year would be about 1805. Here's what I got so far:

There's a tricing line on the fore mast, so that would probably do for fishing the anchor out. The plans (poor at that) don't show no device to take care of the anchor line. Any idea what size anchor would be good for this one? Thanks again, have a nice day

Paweł

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Saturday, November 2, 2013 11:07 PM

Pawel,

You may have to pick an era, and a nationality ro better answer your question.

See, anchors (especially iron-socked ones) were built as small as 24" from crown to eye, and as large as 7-8 foot long.  With weights from ±200 to 8000#--not the sort of thing a person would want to weigh by hand.

(Aside--small ship needs as much anchor cable as a larger one--you still want 6-8 times water depth for scope--but the size of the line can be significant;y smaller.)

Merchant vessels almost universally use a windlass rather than a capstan.

The pawl for the windlass is often set at the heel of the bowsprit, with the kingposts extended fore-and-aft to become the inner cheeks of the windlass.

If, as I suspect from your description, there are no catheads, recovery of the anchors was by a spar about the width of the foredeck at the forward most mast.  This will be 6-8" across, mostly square, with chamfered corners to the full length of it.   Both ends get a shoulder cut in a couple inches deep, and tapered, pyramidally, to the end.  

In use, one end was gammon-seized to mast (or mooring bitts) by one end, the other would would have a lifting tackle rigged to it by the other crown.   Vangs would be rigged to hang the fish spar over the side enough to recover or set the anchor.  When not in use the fish spar would be stowed come convenient place--against the mast, along the bulwarks, or even belowdecks.  This latter especially if the anchor is also stowed below (a practice favored by the sort of officer offended by un-whitewashed rocks).

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Tuesday, October 29, 2013 4:53 PM

I want to be Erik Ronnberg Jr. when I grow up. Failing that, I want him to be my son-in-law...

I just looked at his website, and his America is really a fine thing. Gives me a LOT of inspiration.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Tuesday, October 29, 2013 1:23 PM

Thank you John for the very thorough commentary. I have bookmarked it as a reference as I suspect I will build most of the subjects discussed.

First, on your recommendation I have purchased a MS Elsie kit. It's the newer one with the photograph on the box. For a very reasonable price- so much so that I hope I am not missing something. Kit # 2005.

I also took a look at the Cottage Industries kit. That indeed looks to be a fine one. It may go onto Ms. Morrison's Santa list. And with Elsie already on the ways, probably the We're Here won't be contemplated and those funds allocated to the Alex Ham.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Tuesday, October 29, 2013 12:34 PM

Hello!

Maybe you can help me a little too? I'm building a schooner from an "Artist in the latrine" kit similar to the Model Shipways Katy kit. I'm almost done and would like to ask for details on the anchors - what size anchor would be correct on such a boat/ship and if it's OK to assume the anchor could be fished out of water by hand, as on the model there's no hardware to do this - no capstan and no cathead. Maybe I could add a cathead to the model if necessary. Thanks in advance and have a nice day

Paweł

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, October 29, 2013 12:14 PM

I can comment on most, but not all of these kits.  One big caveat:  what follows is largely in the realm of personal opinion.

My next major project is going to be a generic Gloucester fishing schooner from about 1910, which I'm going to name after my father.  (I've already built a generic tugboat named after my wife.  I really enjoy the lack of restrictions in that sort of project.)  Some years ago I bought the Bluejacket We're Here,  and some months back, when the Model Shipways Elsie was on sale for about $50, I bought it too.  My intention is to combine features of both kits.

Either of those wood kits has the potential to be turned into a first-rate model.  If I had to pick one, though, it would be the MS one.  It scores over the BJ one in two important respects:  the machine-carved hull and the plans. 

The Bluejacket hull is made from good, clear basswood, but the machine carving is, by comparison, pretty rough.  My big criticism is that the bulwarks aren't anywhere near high enough.  That means either gouging out the deck deeper or building up the bulwarks.

The BJ plans appear to be very old.  One sheet, with the hull lines and sail plan crammed on it.  And I think it's actually the plan that accompanied an old Bluenose kit.  (The text blocks reading "We're Here" obviously were added later.)  I think the hull probably came from that kit as well both it and the drawings look an awful lot like the Bluenose.  

Model Shipways issued an Elsie kit many years ago, with decent plans and lead fittings.  (If you find one in a classic MS yellow box, that's it.)  Much more recently, MS released a complete redo of the kit, with britannia metal castings and a superb set of plans by Eric Ronnberg, the reigning expert on fishing schooner history.  There are three sheets of plans, and they contain just about every detail that could possibly be crammed into a 1/96-scale model.  If you want still more information, though, Ronnberg published a series of lengthy articles in the Nautical Research Journal.  (if any serious scale ship modeler doesn't have a copy of the NRJ's back issue CDRs, I highly recommend it.)  The MS hull is carved considerably cleaner than the BJ one - and the bulwarks are the right height.

The fittings sets for the two kits are pretty evenly matched.  Bluejacket, of course, makes its blocks and deadeyes of britannia metal, whereas Model Shipways uses imported wood ones.  (That, in itself, accounts for a big chunk of the price difference.)  Which is preferable depends on the individual modeler.  I personally like the metal ones, with cast beckets, for this particular kind of model, but the MS wood deadeyes are beautiful and the blocks aren't bad.  Bluejacket includes a small fret of photo-etched brass, including the bow ornamentation, the skylight, and two companionway doors.  Very nice. 

The bad news is that, at least for the moment, Model Expo has discontinued the Elsie kit.  I read a news item recently to the effect that it will be brought back in the plank-on-bulkhead format.  (I have the impression that Model Expo is moving away from the machine-carved hull.)  The plans, however, are still available - at a reasonable price.  Also highly recommended.

The Model Shipways Roger B. Taney is a very, very old kit.  I think it was originally released in the late 1940s.  It was based on the plans in Howard I. Chapelle's History of American Sailing Ships.  Those plans were sort of generic, covering the entire Morris class of revenue cutters.  Some years after that, Chapelle located another contemporary set of drawings specifically of the Taney.  He published his version of those plans in The History of the American Sailing Navy.  They're different in some noticeable respects from the earlier version - which MS used.  If I were building a model from the MS kit, I'd call it one of the other ships of the class.

Some months back Model Expo announced that it was bringing the Taney kit back, but that hasn't happened.  I suspect that if it does, the kit will be plank-on-bulkhead.  If you run across an original, yellow-box version, it will have the original cast lead fittings. 

The Lindberg, ex-Pyro Elsie is a much smaller kit, originally part of Pyro's $1.00 series of sailing ships.  I don't recall having seen this one in the flesh, but the whole series was characterized by highly simplified detail, overdone wood grain, and injection-molded "sails" with the spars cast integrally.  I question whether building a serious scale model from that kit would be any easier than starting from scratch.

Pyro also used to make a model of the fishing schooner Gertrude L. Thebaud on 1/96 scale.  It was later reissued under the ridiculous label "American Cup Racer."  (Fishing schooners like the Thebaud, Elsie, and Bluenose did sail memorable races with each other, but the implication that that kit has something to do with the America's Cup is pure fiction.  An America's Cup racer with stacks of dories on its deck.  Yeah, right.)

That one was pirated from the Marine Models Thebaud kit.  It was one of the very first plastic sailing ship kit, and was pretty simple but reasonably accurate.  It can be turned into an extremely handsome model.  Back in 2006 one of our Forum members built such a model, and provided some excellent in-progress photos of it:  http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/7/p/53696/682589.aspx#682589 .

My biggest reservation about that kit is that, though my memory of it is pretty sketchy now, I think Pyro may have left off the stem- and sternposts from the one-piece styrene hull.  If I'm right, it wouldn't be too difficult to add them.  I can recommend the kit with those reservations.

The Lindberg "Independence War Schooner" is a reissue of the Pyro Roger B. Taney, which was pirated from the old Model Shipways kit.  (The two gents who founded Model Shipways referred to Pyro as "Pirate Plastics.")  We've talked about this one several times here in the Forum; a search on the name "Taney" should bring up some useful comments.  In brief, it appeared at about the same time as the Pyro Thebaud kit, and shared many of the same characteristics:  sound basic shapes and simplified details, but not bad.  (One odd thing I do remember about it:  most of the gunports were molded closed, with their edges represented by raised lines.  And the lines on the insides and outsides of the bulwarks didn't line up.)  Again, a good, solid start to a nice model - but I'd call it a different member of the Morris class.  (At least one of them wound up in the "Texas Navy" during the Texas War of Independence, so the later label isn't exactly incorrect.)

If I were thinking about such a project, though, the kit I'd look into would be the Alexander Hamilton from Cottage Industry Models ( http://cottageindustrymodels.com/?page_id=95 ).  I saw this one at an IPMS convention a few years back, and it looked excellent.  The hull is cast resin, the fittings are cast metal, and the spars are wood.  I haven't bought it, but it certainly looks like a fine kit - with an unusual but sensible approach to materials.

If I had to rank the four kits in order, I'd say:  1.  Model Shipways Elsie.  2.  Bluejacket We're Here.  3.  Lindberg "War of Independence Schooner." 4.  Lindberg Elsie (which, frankly, I wouldn't buy at all.)  But I think that Cottage Industries kit belongs near the top of the list - and the Pyro/Lindberg Thebaud should be on it.

That's about all I can offer.  Hope it helps a little.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Schooner model choices
Posted by GMorrison on Monday, October 28, 2013 6:43 PM

I would like some advice pro/ con on the following:

Model Shipways Roger B. Taney

Model Shipways Elsie

Lindberg Elsie

Lindberg "War of Independence"

I assume the latter two are Pyro copies of the first two.

And the class of the pack:

Bluejacket's "We're Here". Which of course is by far the most expensive because it'll be the better kit.

But I could probably afford to buy them all over time, I just don't want any dogs.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

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