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Reference For Lateen Rigging....Chebec? Help?

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  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Reference For Lateen Rigging....Chebec? Help?
Posted by David_K on Saturday, January 4, 2014 7:41 PM

Hi Guys-

So I'm nearing the rigging stage of my Imai Chebec, and this is a new type of rig for me, all lateen sails, and the instructions are sort of unclear (and possibly incorrect).

I'm using cloth for the sails, and displaying them fully set (not furled)...trouble is, the Imai instructions show that the fore sail is hanging on the starboard side of the foremast, and the main and mizzen sails are on the port side of their masts...but I also have a copy of the instructions for Heller's Chebec (thanks, docidle!), and they show the fore on the starboard, main on port, and then mizzen on starboard...furthermore, when I look up reference pics from the great ol' interwebs, I see sails all set on one side of the masts...

Keep in mind that I'm not a super-stickler for what's authentic, but I do want it to look good...

Can anyone shed some light on the whereto's and whyfor's of this type of rig?  Or is there a good reference book out there??  I'd like to get as much info as I can before I get all the deck rigging/fittings installed, to be sure that everything is where I'll need it, if I must deviate from the instructions.

Thanks a bunch!!  Hope everyone is having a good year so far!

Dave

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     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    June 2013
  • From: Jax, FL
Posted by Viejo on Saturday, January 4, 2014 7:46 PM

It depends on where the boat is pointing relative to the wind.  When sailing from close to the wind (as close as you can get) down to a beam reach (wind directly from the side) to a broad reach (wind coming over stern quarter but NOT from directly behind) the sails will be on the same side of the boat.  When running downwind (wind directly from the stern) the main is set to one side, forward sails to the other to increase the amount of sail catching wind.

That help?

  • Member since
    June 2013
  • From: Jax, FL
Posted by Viejo on Saturday, January 4, 2014 7:48 PM

One more thing, sailboats heel.  They lean over.  That's a function of what makes it move forward.  The closer to the wind, the more the boat will lean (to a point, then it just lays over).  When running downwind, the masts generally stand straight up (actually, they oscillate with the action of the boat and swells).

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Sunday, January 5, 2014 10:11 AM

Thanks, Viejo...that does help!  And it makes sense.

So I guess there's not necessarily a wrong way, it just depends on where the wind is coming from....and that would explain why I'm seeing different setups on different models.

Good stuff!

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Sunday, January 5, 2014 10:47 AM

I see you're learning something every day bro.  Viejo gave the answer I was going to give.

As I tend to do...I came across about 35 models this last week and am selling many on the bay...no sailing ships..but lots of carriers and loads of armor.

It has been a good year thus far.....:)

Rob

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Sunday, January 5, 2014 11:13 AM

Yep, always learning....that's one of the great things about this rich hobby....lots of various and interesting bits to figure out!

I've come to feel that full set sails can be a detriment on a lot of ship models, they really do obscure so much of the great detail that is painstakingly applied to a kit...but for this one, I think they'll add a certain amount of presence and dramatic effect.  Plus I need to try it at least once.  I had a co-worker hem up the sails for me over the holiday break, and she did a pretty sweet job of it (she's a sewing-machine whiz!)... I think I'll dye them somehow to get a good mottled and worn color (to match the weathering of the hull/deck)...but first, there's a ton of pre-rigging and getting stuff ready before the masts and yards can go on...still a lot to learn!

Hey Rob, you should give me your eBay user ID (pm if you prefer) so I can keep an eye out for what you've got for sale. 

There's a NIP Imai Pirate Ship on there right now, ending today...I loved building that kit!  Only one bid so far...

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    June 2013
  • From: Jax, FL
Posted by Viejo on Sunday, January 5, 2014 3:01 PM

David, weathering sails will be fun.  If it's the kind of ship that has an onboard wood burning stove, you'd get all kinds of soot all over the sails, when they're folded and left in the sun, the folds will bleach where exposed to the sun, darkening of the corners where attached should show wrinkle patterns radiating from the corner.  If it's pre-Dacron sails, they'd be cotton, probably what's known as griegh(?).  That's fabric from spun threads that aren't totally cleaned or necessarily dyed.  Kind of gray.  

To display the detail in the rig, heel the boat away from the viewer, the sails will be on the low side of the boat, outside of everything onboard.  The rig, mast(s), stays/shrouds as well as deck and cabin details will be back dropped by the sails.

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Sunday, January 5, 2014 7:55 PM

To my mind, lateen sails are an exception to the rules about set sails on models.

This has to do with the nature of the rig.

When not set, the yards are lowered, probably into some sort of cradle, and the sails bound up upon, or to the spar in some fashion.  For the lateen vessels with banks of oars, the spar and/or sailed will be triced up to clear the needs for rowing, and any weaponry shipped.

All of which means the model will have an "odd" look--especially to those accustomed t western rigs.  As odd as a model of an Asian Junk with furled sails--all bare poles and spindles of rolled sails--not the 'right' look at all.

Like a junk, many lateen rigs will just have stump masts with little or no standing rigging, and jutting at what look to be odd angles with little rhyme or reason.

With the sails set, all the spars have some sort of purpose, and the height and spread of the rig becomes apparent.

  • Member since
    June 2013
  • From: Jax, FL
Posted by Viejo on Sunday, January 5, 2014 9:28 PM

That's true.  I was dumping memory from Bermuda sloops, lateen rigs are ancient, but cool.  Still points almost as high as modern sloop.

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Monday, January 6, 2014 12:08 AM

Nothing that points higher than a multiple-jib cutter on a Bermuda/Marconi rig.

Every jib set works like a slat on the leading edge of a wing.  Add in vangs and in-hauls, so you can controls the curve of the belly of the mainsail, and you have a dynamic wing.

Now, the competition boats, like America's Cup, have all shifted over to airfoils--which limits them to certain windspeeds, and makes them a tad less line upwind.  They are just very fast upwind.

Curiously, one of the best features of the lateen rig is not it's upwind performance, but, the ability to sail a given course with the sails set to how they pull best.   The lateen rig will stay "inflated" even when skewed to off-wind angles.  Which is handy if you need to decrease heel, or roll, or pitch, for some reason.

Mind, you lose speed for that flexibility.  And, the lateen rig requires some very long, very stout spars to really work well.  (Which is why ship's boats have used lug sails, sprit or dipping, for their rigs.)

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, January 6, 2014 2:20 PM

I haven't had the kit in my hands - or the Heller one, for that matter.  My guess, though, on the basis of the other Imai kits I've seen, is that you won't make a huge mistake if you follow Imai's instructions.  The firm generally seems to have simplified rigging a bit, without turning it into an arbitrary collection of threads.  (That's what Heller frequently did.)

There are all sorts of variants on the lateen rig, depending on time and place.  I've seen pictures of Mediterranean lateeners that carried their lateen yards outside the shrouds.  That would mean that the sail would have to be bundled up tight, virtually all its rigging would have to be struck, and the yard (which in that type of vessel was enormous) would have to be hauled around from one side of the ship to the other, every time the ship tacked.  Ships from the Arab nations had a reputation among westerners for having big crews; it's easy to see why.

One thing they have in common is the necessity for resetting the sail on the other side of the mast every time the ship comes about.  If the wind is from dead aft, or nearly so, they'll all be set so the yards are almost athwartships, as Viejo mentioned earlier.  (The English-language term for that arrangement is "wing-and-wing.")

My one direct encounter with the lateen rig has been with the replicas of the Susan Constant, Godspeed, and Discovery at Jamestown Settlement.  They were designed by Brian Lavery, a British expert who knows what he's doing, and they're sailed around Chesapeake Bay fairly frequently.  On a couple of occasions the Jamestown Settlement staff has shown my students how to furl and shift the mizzen of the Susan Constant.  She carries her mizzen inside the shrouds.  The rigging, once you've seen it in action, is actually pretty simple.  There are two tackles called (oddly enough) bowlines that run from the forward, lower end of the yard to blocks in the main shrouds.  A peak halyard runs from the upper end of the yard to a block on the masthead.  Two tackles called sheets control the bottom, after corner of the sail, and another pair called the tacks control the lower, forward corner.  And several lines called brails lead from the after edge (leech) of the sail to blocks on the yard.  Another tackle called the parral holds the yard to the mast; its ends lead to the deck.

When the ship goes about, the following sequence occurs.  1.  The sheets, tacks, and bowlines are cast off.  2.  The brails are hauled, gathering the sail into a loose bundle on the yard.  3.  The parral is eased, letting the yard bump around a little against the mast.  5.  The peak halyard is hauled, bringing the yard vertical.  6.  A couple of guys grab the lower end of the yard and walk it around the mast, to what is now going to be the lee side. 7.  The brails and peak halyard are eased and the sheets are hauled, so the yard gets moved back to its diagonal position.  8.  The parral is hove taut.  9.  The tacks and bowlines are secured.  By now the ship is on the other tack.

A group of five or six lubberly college students can do that evolutionin two or three minutes.  The captain told me that his regular crew can do it in less than one - though if the ship is just cruising around the neighborhood making short tacks they generally don't bother to set the mizzen at all.  (I suspect the ship's diesel engine may be a factor in that practice too.) 

It's not as complex or irrational as it looks at first glance.  But the rig did vary from country to country, and from century to century.  I have the impression that the Imai kit represents a ship from the eighteenth century, but I don't know what nationality. 

The most thorough source I know of regarding the intricasies of eighteenth-century rigging is Karl Heinz Marquardt's Eighteenth-Century Rigs and Rigging - a weighty tome that's hard to find and expensive.  Jean Boudriot, the dean of French eighteenth-century naval architecture, also published a volume of plans of a French chebec, the Requin.  That one is probably even scarcer and pricier.  If you don't want to take that much trouble (or spend that much money), I think the Imai diagrams are probably ok.  A google search on "chebec rigging" will also turn up some useful images.

The pressure of the wind on the sails does indeed make any ship that isn't running before the wind heel.  But I've seen plenty of handsome models of lateen-rigged ships that show the sails slack, with no wind in them.  (I've always had a bit of a problem with wind blowing inside glass cases anyway - though I've seen plenty of beautiful examples that make my cynicism disappear.)  And I've only seen a few heeling models that aren't in diorama settings.

Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Monday, January 6, 2014 4:29 PM

It's also not uncommon to leave the sail on the windward side of the mast.

I second the trust of Imai. One of the more "popular" ship modeling items in my possession is the Imai instructions booklet for the big Heller Victory. Hardly a month goes by that I don't give away a copy.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Monday, January 6, 2014 5:57 PM

Thanks for all the input, you guys!  It's very helpful to get these tidbits into my thought-processor!

I agree about Imai's instructions...their kits are, to me, among the best I've seen, in terms of mold quality, detail, rigging plan, and instructions (Zvezda does a good job, too...unfortunately, they don't seem to have a big catalog of ships I'm interested in)...I've built a few of Imai's period sailing ship kits, and I have most of the remainder in my stash....but no Catalan yet...that one is like a golden unicorn, for some reason, and people seem to have no qualms about spending 150 bucks for it on eBay!

I have a strong inclination that I'll one day begin to build one of the big Heller kits, maybe the Victory, but probably the Soleil Royal (I know, I know!)...and after I learned that Imai had released versions of the Vic and SR, I knew that when the time came, I'd have to get one with Imai instructions...from what I've heard, Heller has a bad reputation when it comes to instructions!  

GM, do you know if the Imai rigging plan for Heller's big kits is different (Better) than Heller's?  Or is it just that the instructions are easier to understand?

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

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