Re-release of Queen Elizabeth and Mauritania.

You know what scale the release will be in?

All the old Airfix modern warships and liners are on 1/600 scale.

To my taste it's a nice scale for such subject.  The big problem is that there are so few aftermarket items in 1/600 .  Gold Metal Models does offer a generic 1/600 " Merchant Ship" photo-etched set that includes such things as railings, ladders, lifeboat tackles, boom rigging, and shroud/ratline assemblies to fit the Titanic and Lusitania/Mauretania.

I really like the Airfix Mauretania.  I can't remember having seen the Queen Elizabeth outside the box.

Speaking of 1:600, both Airfix and Heller used to do sailing warships in 1:600 scale. I still have a couple in my stash, but would like more of them- sure wish they'd re-pop these or even add new ones.  The main problem was the  rigging was really a task!  But with PE shrouds/ratlines they should not be that bad. I have found one set for a civil ship, but PE seems like a natural for these.  I would really like to see new releases that include PE, but would settle for repops if some PE company would step up and do accessory sets aimed at specific kits.

Sorry for the hijack of thread!

I did the Mauretania using the 1/600 generic Merchant Ship set, but I now can't recall if I used GMM or Tom's. The Maury has ratlines, so that was handy. For the QE, I don't see how one would need anything more than 1/600 railing, 5 bar probably. At least there are no moulded-on rails to remove.

A couple of those tiny old Airfix sailing ships, the Cutty Sark and the Victory, are still available.  And a new one is on the way:  a Mary Rose on 1/400.  (I suspect all three are intended to be sold in the actual ships' gift shops.)  It will be interesting to see how Airfix approaches this sort of kit, fifty or sixty years after the other little ones were released.

Re shrouds and ratlines - Atlantic Models offers this:  https://www.whiteensignmodels.com/p/Atlantic+Models+16001700+Ratlines+ATEM+06/1035/#.UyxtlF5PJz8 .  I believe Atlantic Models is in fact Peter Hall, one of the wizards at White Ensign.  I haven't seen this set, but on the basis of the picture, and Mr. Hall's reputation, it's gotta be good.

I think the Queen Elizabeth went straight from the builder's yard to troopship service, so a gray one would be interesting.

Fred:

Thanks for the update.  I have the Revell Queen Mary and United States in 1:570, so having the QE in 1:600 will complete the set.  Now "all " I have to do is build them along with a NYC pier diorama (although in practice the two Queens were seldom in port together).  I built the Airfix QE kit sometime around 1966 and recall that it was less detailed than the Revell Queen Mary, but still a nice kit.

I think the kit is of the QE prior to the addition of the Lido deck aft, so if you wanted to build a wartime QE there shouldn't be too much kitbashing involved other than to omit the stabilizers and add some armament (maybe from an AirFix HMS Belfast kit).

jtilley

A couple of those tiny old Airfix sailing ships, the Cutty Sark and the Victory, are still available.  And a new one is on the way:  a Mary Rose on 1/400.  (I suspect all three are intended to be sold in the actual ships' gift shops.)  It will be interesting to see how Airfix approaches this sort of kit, fifty or sixty years after the other little ones were released.

Re shrouds and ratlines - Atlantic Models offers this:  https://www.whiteensignmodels.com/p/Atlantic+Models+16001700+Ratlines+ATEM+06/1035/#.UyxtlF5PJz8 .  I believe Atlantic Models is in fact Peter Hall, one of the wizards at White Ensign.  I haven't seen this set, but on the basis of the picture, and Mr. Hall's reputation, it's gotta be good.

What ship is the white ensign set for?

Carmike,

I went to high school in Weehawken, NJ, and had great views of the piers across the river with the last of the great liners in port. United States, France, Queen Elizabeth, and Queen Mary. Airfix also did the France, but that kit is rare as the molds have been lost. It would certainly be a great diorama to do that section of the west side.

Fred

Fred:

My grandmother lived on the west side of Manhattan, probably right across the river from you, and had a great view of the piers.  I always loved staying with her since you never knew what ship you were going to see coming up the Hudson in the early morning and there were some evening sailings that were also very dramatic.  And all day long, the NYC's tugs shuttled car floats across to the West side freight yard.

I saw the Liberte backing out into the Hudson one winter morning with frost covering her black hull, I was too young too appreciate that it was one of her last sailings.

Hopefully, I can capture some of this in the diorama (but without the West Side Highway).

This thread got me thinking, for the first time in years, about the great old liners.  I looked up the S.S. France in Wikipedia.  What a magnificent ship - and what a story!  It's a shame that the old Airfix kit is gone.  (The only other one in plastic is the old ITC/Glencoe version, which is pretty basic.

Among other fantastic features, she had a dog kennel equipped with two fire hydrants - one European, one American.

What a great thing it would be if a good plastic kit manufacturer would do a 1/700 series of liners!  Imagine a shelf with the Lusitania, Aquitania, Carpathia, Queen Elizabeth, Queen Mary, United States, Imperator, Normandie, etc., etc. all lined up on it.  Throw in a few more German ones, and maybe an Italian and/or Dutch ship, for good measure.  And maybe a P&O liner, or the Gripsholm....The list of great potential subjects is endless.

Well, there does seem to be a little interest in liners among the manufacturers.  It's interesting that Revell Germany has released a 1/700 Titanic that goes head to head with the Academy/Airfix one - and Revell has an Olympic as well.  Maybe, eventually....ROG, Trumpeter, Airfix, or Dragon - are you listening?

Many years ago I read a fine book by John Maxtone-Graham called The Only Way to Cross.  I remember the first words of the preface:  "It's hard to believe they are gone."

Re Don's query - that PE set from Atlantic/White Ensign appears to be generic; it probably could be trimmed to fit all sorts of small-scale models (if you're not too picky about the ratline spacing).  I haven't tried it, but it certainly looks promising.

Our club used to have a member who built tiny sailing ships from scratch.  He had a clever trick for making shrouds and ratlines.  He drew them with permanent ink on thin vellum, which he then sprayed with clear lacquer.  Then he (very carefully) cut them out.  The lacquer made the vellum virtually transparent.  Since the guy put the finished models in tiny glass cases, the shiny vellum was almost invisible.

Some of those little Airfix kits used to have shrouds and ratlines printed on thin, transparent plastic.  (I don't know whether the new versions do or not.). Same idea.

Titanics, Titanics and more Titanics, with an Olympic thrown in! I was just doing some research on the United States, since I am doing a paper model of her, and came across the phrase, "The most famous ship that didn't sink." I'd say the Mauretania should get that title, but there's the rub. It seems the companies only like to offer kits that were involved in some tragedy. I guess not enough people got killed on Normandie?

I think a great marketing angle would be to stress the ships that brought immigrants during the great migrations of the late 19th to early 20th century. We could build the ships great-grandma came over on.

A west side pier diorama would be great to see. You'd have to have a lot of room, even in 1/700 scale. But I wonder if there was a place which had one ship at one pier and another nationality across the slip? I recall somebody doing a dio of the Lusitania pulling away from the pier on her last departure from NY. He used the Airfix Maury as a basis.

Fred

According to Thomas Graham's fine book about the history of Revell, there was lots of doubt about issuing the old Arizona kit because "who wants to build a model of a ship that sank?"  And something similar happened a good many years later when the question of issuing a Titanic came up.  Both have been best-sellers for a long time now.

As a semi-retired history teacher, I'm not optimistic that many Americans under the age of 60 are really conscious of what an important role the old transatlantic liners played in their heritage. 

But if dramatic sinking = popularity, how about a new 1/350 and/or 1/700 Lusitania that could do double duty (with a few different parts) as the Mauretania?  One could hope that the current WWI centennial observance would stir up some interest.  (Airfix's website currently has a special section on WWI stuff.)

Maybe what we really need is another blockbuster movie about an ocean liner.

Incidentally, some friends recently made a round trip Atlantic crossing on the new Queen Mary. There was an article in the New York Times last year or so about Cunard doing these crossings. I was surprised at how inexpensive it was. Per day, it wasn't much more than it cost you to stay in decent places in Europe. Of course, it's easy to spend more than the fare for extras.

But with flying getting more and more unpleasant, I could see a new market for this sort of thing.

Some pier dioramas:

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/service/liners/lusitania-600-mda/mda-index.html

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/service/liners/normandie-700-sw/index.htm

Fred:

I found some interesting images of the NY piers in the 1950's in Miller's The Last Atlantic Liners (Vanwell Publishing, 1985) and will try to find them on the web so I can post here.  Heading north, US Lines had Pier 86, the French, Pier 88, and Cunard, Pier 90.  I'm look at an image from July of '57 that has the Queen Elizabeth on the north side of Pier 90, the second Mauretania on the south side, the Liberte on the north side of Pier 88 (next door to the Mauretania), and the United States on the north side of Pier 86.

In the meantime, here's an image from 1939 with the Queen Mary moored side by side with the Normandie:

Regards,

Mike

Mike,

Great picture there! I am guessing that is the Aquitania, Queen Mary, Normandie and Ille de France, left to right. 

Fred

I bought the qe1 model off ebay a last year and i also bought the qm1 kit by revell. The airfix kit is far superior to the revell kit despite the lack of detail. The airfix kit is actually done from plans but the revell kit seems to be done very inaccurately from observation. I am currently scratch building most of it. The qe1 is missing window detail which can be easily put in. I love that kit and is so easy to assemble. When i did not have that kit, i missed it. I am going to buy the kit again just to have a backup. The mauretania kit from aifix is extremely accurate but requires alot of scratch build to bring it up to par. At 1:600 it is very difficult to do putting in all those stantions  for the promenade decks. I think that airfix are responding to revells success with the olympic which i also have. I also think that airfix are testing the waters for a new tool in ocean liners but who know however that minicraft are releasing a 1:350 model of the olympic in november which i am very excited about. It will go well with my titanic of the same scale.

I concur re the stanchions on the Maury. That was the most tedious part of bringing the kit up to par. I don't remember how many there are, but certainly a couple of hundred. The other flaw in the kit is the moulded mooring lines on the decks. It looks like they had a mooring diagram showing the leads, but the lines would not all be there in reality.  But they aren't very noticeable.

Yes they were terrible alright, its like the scanned in the deck plans and printed using a 3d printer....lol. Another issue is that most of the windows and vents on the qe1 and mauretania are missing so will have to draw in. Really brings the model to life though, especially on the qe1.

Fred:

You ship identification is flawless - Aquitania, Queen Mary, Normandie, and the Ile.

I found this photo from Nov, 1958 on the web:

The 2nd Mauretania is to the port, the Queen Mary to starboard, and the Bear Mountain paddle wheeler (Alexander Hamilton?) is in the foreground, returning downstream to her pier in the afternoon.

I'm thinking that a photo backdrop of the NY skyline might just do the trick and I might be able to construct the piers from foam-core board and balsa.

And I found this shot as well:

This is more like the west side as I remember it with either the Independence or Constitution at the bottom and going north: America, the Big U, the Olympia, the Intrepid in for a visit, and the QE docking alongside the Mauretania.

Mike

Great shots Mike, and good references to just how not 'red' Cunard Red is. It's the color of a basketball. When I did my Mauretania I labored over getting the stacks to be more orange than red, and they still ended up being too red. This is the source of endless debate, because old paintings and postcards of Cunard ships show the red to be much redder than photos in more modern times. Did the artists get it wrong, or did it change?

Thanks, Fred.

I'm not sure - although I saw Cunard funnels several times a week for many years, that was a long time ago.

Sun and salt water are pretty merciless, even with lead paint, so I would guess that the funnel color tended to fade between refits.  If I recall correctly, the Queens generally had a major refit over the winter and a minor overhaul mid-summer - the paint color on the funnels likely varied considerably between those times, and I don't recall seeing them repainting funnels during NY turnarounds.

All things being equal, I'd go with the photographic evidence that shows Cunard red to be much lighter and more orange than the US Line's red.  Another good comparison point would be to get a color shot of one of the Queens alongside the France.

I'll see what I can find.

Here is one of my own pics, taken in Nassau in 1964 or 1965. Even given the effects of sun and salt on paint, and the possible change in color film, it is hard to see how the poster and postcard artists who painted Cunard stacks in a bright red could have been so wrong. I am leaning toward the camp that says the color changed over the years. Maybe to distinguish Cunard from French and US Line?

And here is an artist's depiction, the Berengaria:

Over on www.titanic-model.com,  one of the forum members (Paul, I believe is his name) is trying to start a small company that will address the lack of kits for these ships.

Right now he's working on an RMS Aquitania, getting the bugs worked out. It is a 1/350 scale kit and made of wood... at least the hull is. He's talking about a 3D printer for producing vents and other details.

Whether or not it will be a complete kit remains to be seen. He has posted his email address in one of the posts and is looking for input and feedback from other modelers.

Just thought I'd throw this out there... it seems like a lot of you guys know what you are looking for in a kit of this type.

Here is the link to the thread:

titanic-model.com/.../dcboard.php

Hope this business venture of his becomes a reality.

Matt

I've got a collection  of classic  ocean liners all 1/570 scale. it's very frustrating  not being able to complete my collection   using all 1/570 scale models. I'm on the hunt for rms queen Elizabeth   ( the original  one)  as well  and a 1/570 scale model of the Normandie  I'd love to finally complete  my collection  using all the same scales