SEARCH FINESCALE.COM

Enter keywords or a search phrase below:

Imai Golden Hind 1/70

35608 views
153 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by rdiaz on Friday, January 30, 2015 1:08 AM

Great stuff, docidle! I'm also building the Pinta and finished Revell's Santa Maria a few weeks ago (my first ship model). Might experiment with mounting the Pinta this way...

The Constitution is 630mm long including bowsprit and spanker boom, so I think the 26/29 mm pedestals (with 3'8mm slots) will be fine.

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Thursday, January 29, 2015 8:03 PM

Another option if I may intercede, is the method I am using on the Nina and Pinta. I drilled holes in the keel and then used screw/bolts for holding the model in place. Covering the nails are brass tubes that are the same width as the keel. I then cut the tubes to the desired height, slip them over and epoxy the top portion of the screw that will be inside the model.

The base is bass wood stained light. Since the Nina and Pinta were simple merchant ships, I chose a base that was simple so as to not take away from the models.

I have used brass pedestals on other models I have done when the scale is appropriate.  You can ruin the overall effect of a beautifully built model if the stand or pedestals are too large or too small.

You can also see that the keel cracked a bit just behind the forward hole, but a little green putty, sanding and repainting made it disappear.

Just my one cent.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Wednesday, January 28, 2015 9:10 PM

Any second-had appliances places (especially ones that do repairs)?  

Back before Dremel came in variable speed we would find plug-in sewing machine pedals to control them.  That, and a regular corded drill can get you closer than hand filing.

Oh, and your English is most commendable--far better than my Spanish.

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by rdiaz on Wednesday, January 28, 2015 2:18 AM

Thank you very much for the insight, jtilley. I've found brass pedestals with a keel slot that is 3,8 mm - just about right. I think Amati makes them. I have no Dremel nor money for one right now, but maybe I could use a small round file to make the hole before the hull halves are assembled together.

Philo426, I'm from Spain, so no Lowe's - but I'll keep looking Thanks a lot!

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Tuesday, January 27, 2015 11:56 PM

Good advice, John.

And at the end of the day whatever happens down there is usually not too noticeable.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, January 27, 2015 11:34 PM

There's really no great trick to drilling a hole in the bottom of a plastic hull - though the whole job will be a lot easier if you do it before or right after gluing the hull halves together. Start with a small drill - say 1/16". Use an electric drill or, better yet, a Dremel tool; the bit is less likely to crack the plastic if it's spinning fast (though not fast enough to melt the plastic). With a small hole in place you can enlarge it with a larger bit, a file, or even an Xacto knife.

It's vital that the screws (or whatever else you're using to secure the pedestals) have something solid to go into. Last time I had such a project I super-glued a pair of nuts to the underside of the deck (lining them up carefully with the holes in the keel). I stuck pieces of plastic to the deck next to the nuts, to make absolutely sure the latter wouldn't come loose. If that's not practical for your model, Dave's idea of sticking a piece of wood inside the hull will work just as well (provided you don't intend to take the screws out too often). Just make sure the wood is really stuck.

Another problem you're going to have, if you use commercially-available pedestals, is that the slots in them will be too wide. You can glue little pieces of brass, styrene, or wood (the harder the better) to the side of the keel to make the pedestals fit. When they're trimmed to length, they'll barely be noticeable.

Hope that helps a little. Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2005
Posted by philo426 on Tuesday, January 27, 2015 8:44 PM

They have them a Lowe's in the special hardware sections.

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by rdiaz on Tuesday, January 27, 2015 5:27 PM

That could do, but 2 mm screws that are at least 5 cm long are hard, if not impossible to find. Anything with bigger diameter and chances of keel snapping or chipping will increase tremendously. I'll see what I can come up with. I'd start a build log but I'm afraid my lack of skill would make it rather uninteresting :p

Thanks!

  • Member since
    March 2005
Posted by philo426 on Tuesday, January 27, 2015 2:51 PM

How about epoxying small nuts inside the hull along the keel to accept machine screws?Should work.

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by rdiaz on Tuesday, January 27, 2015 10:09 AM

Thanks David. The idea of using long nails, or brass or steel rod rather than screws, so I can drill smaller holes, has also crossed my mind - that might work to avoid chipping.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, January 27, 2015 9:59 AM

It's true, the keel thickness is likely not equal to the width of the screws...I've had slight *chipping* when the bits get to right size, but fortunately it was contained within the area that was covered by the pedestals forks, so any missing keel material is invisible (at least on my models)...

I'm sure you'll have no trouble getting good results.

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by rdiaz on Tuesday, January 27, 2015 9:04 AM

Yeah, that makes sense, thank you very much! Guess the danger of snapping the keel would be even less if I make carefully aligned "half holes" on each part before they are put together?

My idea was indeed to fit wood or styrene blocks inside the hull for the screws to bite into; but the part I'm most afraid of is drilling through the thin plastic keel with my spiral hand drill, even if I start with tiny holes and then go up in size.  The width of remaining styrene around the holes might be less than 1 mm, quite thin. I guess if I mess up I can always fix with some putty...

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, January 27, 2015 8:43 AM

Thanks, rdiaz!

Let's see if I can explain how the pedestals work without confusing you :)

So, once I got the hull halves assembled (but before the decks go in), I drilled tiny holes at the proper spacing in the bottom of the keel, then gradually used larger bits until the holes were wide enough to accommodate the screws (I think they are #8 machine screws)...the screws need to be long enough to reach from the bottom of the display board, through the pedestals, and up into the inside of the hull with ~1/2" length to spare.

In the hull, I took a couple of 1/4" thick wood squares (a couple inches square or so), drilled holes in them for the screws to fit through, and put washers and nuts on to hold the pedestals tight....kinda like a sandwich!

It's true, the keel is way too thin to hold the model up with any stability, so I use long screws through wooden blocks to hold it all together...the top *forks* of the pedestals are held tightly up against the hull on either side of the keel, and the small wooden blocks inside push down on the hull, and that's what keeps everything pinched.

Hope that makes sense!

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by rdiaz on Tuesday, January 27, 2015 3:10 AM
This model looks sooooo gorgeous... I know you finished it a while ago David, but I wanted to ask - how did you go on about installing the pedestals? I want to mount my 1/147 Connie with two of them like you did, but the keel is just short of 4 mm (model is 63 cm long) and I'm afraid it may become too brittle after digging holes through it (hull halves aren't assembled yet). What kind of bolts did you use to secure the pedestals? Thank you!
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 5:59 AM

John,

Those bone models are beautiful!  And, I wanted to bring a smile to your face.  After all, I did get you to say something somewhat positive about that kit!  Merry Christmas, everyone!

Bill

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, December 22, 2014 6:43 PM

Bill - Yeah, I suppose that kit is as good a starting point for a serious scale model as a beef bone would be. But the beef bone would be cheaper.

I hope it's understood that that beef bone analogy was semi-serious. An untold number of POWs in the Napoleonic Wars made some spectacular models out of bones. (The only sizable collection of them in the US, so far as I know, is the one at the Naval Academy Museum - a place of pilgrimage for ship model fans.)

Dave - Whazza mattuh? You got something against chia ship models?

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, December 22, 2014 10:49 AM

"Regarding your choice of the Soleil Royal - no comment. I've shot off my mouth about that one enough."

John,

I remember your once stating that one can build a decent model out of anything, including a beef bone."  Surely, the Heller Le Soleil Royal is at least as good as a beef bone . . ..  ; )

Bill

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Monday, December 22, 2014 8:37 AM

Hey, waitasec....Did John just bust out a joke?!?

Well done, sir!

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, December 21, 2014 8:58 PM

For my money, a beautiful, uniform, airbrushed finish isn't appropriate for the bottom of any ship - unless you're building one of those stylized, full-hull models that don't purport to be realistic. Even a modern warship starts to show different hues and beat-up spots on the bottom, even before it's launched.

I visualize that tar/horsehair/sulfur mix as a very dark grey - sort of like Lufwaffe Schwarzgrau. If I were doing it, I'd try dry brushing it with various shades of grey, green and brown - all of them pretty dark.

Show us some pictures of what you come up with. I haven't seen many models that try for that effect.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, December 21, 2014 3:03 PM

John had earlier mentioned looking at the replica of the Susan Constant. I also looked at the Mayflower II for painting ideas.  However, we cannot neglect looking at the replica of the Golden Hinde in London, which is much darker than the American replicas.  Granted, these are replicas, but they do convey a sense of the original. Check out www.goldenhinde.com to see what I mean.

Bill

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, December 21, 2014 10:46 AM

John,

All kidding aside, the original question is still valid concerning the texture of that "dark stuff" used to coat the lower hull on those ships so treated.  Somehow, airbrush purity doesn't seem to fit the bill.  So now, my brain is turning over just how to create a convincing concoction.  I guess that it is time to start experimenting!

Bill

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, December 20, 2014 11:54 PM

Now my strange brain is trying to come up with other model applications for what's found in bathtub drains. Next: belly button lint.

Model car enthusiasts use a product called "Funny Fur." It comes in little plastic shaker bottles. Shake some of that stuff onto the freshly-painted bottom of a sailing ship, and I'll bet you could create a surface that would make any self-respecting 1/96-scale shipworm turn up his nose.

Just had another idea! The inspiration came from a TV commercial. Chia Pets come with little bottles of some concoction that grows moss (or whatever that stuff is). Why not paiint the underwater hull of the model with it?

Oops. That just may be the worst idea anybody's ever had since the night Adolf Hitler's father said to Adolf Hitler's mother, "Come on upstairs, Brunhilde, I'm feeling frisky this evening." I'd better shut this thing down and go to bed.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, December 20, 2014 6:47 PM

John,

It's all meant in good humor!

Bill

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, December 20, 2014 11:50 AM

Well, now this thread has descended from the merely disgusting to the truly repugnant.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, December 20, 2014 11:07 AM

Well, I could use the hair trapped in my bath tub drain, but I will never shave my beard!

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, December 20, 2014 10:58 AM

Well, I guess you could collect what's left on your razor every morning for a few days....Ooops, sorry, forgot.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, December 20, 2014 10:28 AM

John,

AS usual, it is a pleasure peering into your brain!  The question now turns to finding scale horse hair . . . hmmmm!

Bill

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, December 20, 2014 2:06 AM

My usual first stop in trying to deal with such issues is the Conway's History of the Ship series. I just checked the relevant volume, Cogs, Caravels, and Galleons: The Sailing Ship, 1000-1650, and found no reference to bottom treatments. So far as I know there's scarcely any hard contemporary evidence on the subject. So I'll have to fall back on that most unreliable of sources, my senile memory.

I've read in several places (don't ask me where) that there were several common bottom treatments prior to the introduction of copper sheathing. I've never read that there was any clear chronological sequence to them; some or all of them probably were in use at the same time. One was a particularly repulsive-sounding concoction containing tar, sulfur, and horse hair (presumably in the hope that shipworms would find it disgusting and indigestible). Another was white lead paint; another was tallow - perhaps applied on top of the white lead. (I imagine tallow applied directly to wood would look like a semi-transparent grease; I figure slapping it on top of a coat of white paint would result in a slightly creamy off-white color.) 

I don't know which of those treatments would be more expensive.

Some of the oldest surviving English ship models have white bottoms. Whether that was an accurate depiction of reality or a model builder's convention I don't know. (A modeler with any aesthetic sense would be turned off by the thought of reproducing that tar/sulfur/horse hair mix.)

There are four genuine surviving ships from the period covered by the Conway book: the Gokstad ship, the Oseberg ship, the Mary Rose, and the Wasa. The two Viking hulls clearly were unpainted except, perhaps, for some decorative carved work. Fred Hocker's book on the Wasa states quite emphatically that no waterline is marked on her, and the wood on her bottom looks just like that of the upper works I've read quite a bit about the Mary Rose, and I've never bumped into any reference to paint or other treatment on her hull.

The bottoms of hulls are rarely visible in old master marine paintings (e.g., those of the Van de Veldes), but I think I've seen some that appear to be white.

Brian Lavery's book, The Construction and Fitting of English Ships of War, says that by the early eighteenth century two coatings were in use: "black stuff" and "dark stuff." Apparently they were about the same as the two I mentioned earlier. Lavery says that "black stuff" rarely shows up in models, but he seems to think it was used more often than "white stuff" in reality. And he suggests that some ships may have had "black stuff" on their bottoms, with a band of white (for looks, I guess) just above and below the waterline.

I think this is one of those questions that don't have good answers. The good news is that you can paint the bottom of your model whatever color you like (though I'd discourage pink and purple), and it's highly unlikely that anybody can say definitively that it's wrong.

I'm afraid I haven't helped much.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, December 19, 2014 9:17 PM

John,

I am intrigued by your comments concerning the hull below the waterline being coated by a tar-based substance that would logically be very dark in color. I have often thought that, while state-owned ships of the Elizabethan period might be maintained with the traditional tallow-based coating, less wealthy owners might opt for a tar-based coating that would be dark in color. I would imagine that the texture would be thick, perhaps unevenly applied, perhaps even "messy" in appearance. I am curious about any further thoughts you might have.

My oldest grandson, aged 9, has been intrigued with the Mayflower for several years.  We have started building the Revell kit, and I am teaching him as we go.  Your comments here have led me to want to try this approach to that ship.  Your thoughts would be much appreciated!

Bill

JOIN OUR COMMUNITY!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

SEARCH FORUMS
FREE NEWSLETTER
By signing up you may also receive reader surveys and occasional special offers. We do not sell, rent or trade our email lists. View our Privacy Policy.