attaching the shrouds

Steve,

I hope I can convey the method without picture examples, if it does not make sense, please let me know and I'll scan some pictures and post them.  You can also look at my Thomas and/or Hanse Kogge build, or Arnie60's Constitution build as well as DavidK's Black Swan.  I wish Force9 was on that step, since his work is so beautiful, however, any and all those threads would help.

First off, I do the bowsprit and when completed, I start with the forward mast lower starboard shrouds 1 and 2. Then do the port side 1 and 2 then the starboard 3and 4, ect....  When the mast's shrouds are completed then I do the forward and aft stays.  I also work from lower to upper on each mast.  Another thing is to avoid piling the shroud eyes on top of the seizings. After I have applied each seizing I move them back towards the aft a bit so that you see each seizing.

I'm not sure if you want to know the sequence for reeving the lanyards on the deadeyes or not.  If so, let me know, otherwise good luck.  Professor Tilley told me when I started here that rigging is a steep learning curve, when starting, it might take you 20 minutes to do your first shroud (maybe more), then the next might take you 18, then 15 until you find your groove.  By the time you finish the Mizzen rigging, you will probably want to take down the first ones and do them over.  I know I do!  Which is why I do not glue the seizings and such right away, but tie off the lines with a slip knot.  This gives me the ability to go back and adjust the shrouds and stays if they are out of true.

Although it deals with ships from the 17th to the early 18th century, I would highly recommend R.C. Anderson's "The Rigging of Ships In The Days of Spritsail Topmast," especially Chapter VI, Standing Rigging.   Lennarth Peterson's Rigging Period Ship Models" would help also since the time period covered in the book is the same as the HMS Victory.  Another book that might help is "How To Build First-Rate Ship Models From Kits," by Ben Lankford available from Model Expo.  There are numerous other books that I am sure could be recommended but these three will at least get you into trouble.

Hope some of this helps,

Steve

thanks docidle that helps a lot.,

By the way, guys....

I just picked up that R.C. Anderson book for around 5 bucks (shipped) from Amazon...there's still a few used copies at that price, so if anyone's looking for it, that's a great deal!

Dave

The Anderson book (in the paperback reprint edition) is a steal even at full price (something less than twenty bucks). For rigging the Victory, though, the book you really need is C. Nepean Longridge's The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships. There are also the two books about the Victory illustrated by John McKay. Those drawings are magnificent, but I recommend Longridge for starters. In addition to beautiful drawings (by George Campbell), Longridge gives a verbal description of how every line leads.

Docidle left out one word of my description of the ship model learning curve - steep but SHORT. What's happening is that you're training your fingers, which can do amazing things if you give them just a little time to learn them. Docidle's also dead right on another point. Rigging a model takes time, and by the time it's finished the stuff you did in the beginning won't look good to you any more. That's one reason why so many newcomers get discouraged and give up. Docidle (this infernal phone keeps insisting that his name is "do idle") and DavidK both played it smart, by starting with relatively small ships on relatively large scales. Now it appears that they're permanently hooked.

I find retraining is also needed unless you keep up the rigging work. I build more non-sailing than sailing ships (and do other genre).  On a complicated rigging project I have a partially-completed shelf that these ships go on.  I find when I lay off for a month or two, the first few sessions go very slow- say the ratlines on a mast, or setting up the shrouds.  However, after about two sessions I have come back up to speed and things then go fast again.  I also notice on this type of work that lower brain functions (or is it even in brain stem or spine) take over, and I am not fully conscious of what I am doing- my mind wanders to think of many strange things :-)

BTW, I think a full discussion of "learning curves" somewhere in these forums would be a good idea.  A steep learning curve is good- it means you learn the task quickly.  A LONG or gradual learning curve is the difficult one!

Some ships, such as the Connie that I am working on, have a first single shroud that is called a swifter. this is rigged singly and not as a pair (one to each side). Not sure that it really matters whether you start w/ the port or starboard side(Longridige shows them rigged to starboard first) You won't really be able to tell after its done without real close inspection. I would recommend that you follow Steve's sequence as well. Belaying the landyards can be tricky getting them all the same height. A lot of people use a jig of some sort, but I found that I did just as well by eyeballing them, which is to say far from perfect. On hindsight, I would also recommend that you rig the lanyards for the aftmost shroud first to obtain the tension that you want, otherwise by the time you get to the end, you may end up with the forward shrouds tending to slack on you. If you can avoid gluing the lanyards in place, you can always go back and re-adjust them. And yes, I would love to go back and re-do the foremast shrouds, but I had gone ahead and fitted the jack yard and jeers and am not about to go back and undo those. All in all, they look good enough for the average viewer as can be attested by the oohs and ahhs from those that have seen it so far. Just take your time. This is a very slow process and will pretty much drive you nuts, so walk away the minute you get frustrated. Sometimes I only get one or two lines rigged before I have to take a break.

Good luck.

I never thought of the process in which order the lanyards go., so yes I would like to know thankyou steve

Steve,

Reeving the lanyards is actually not difficult, but making sure the the deadeyes are level with each other is one part of what makes an outstanding rigging job.  Again, this is a steep but short learning curve (thanks for emphasizing that Prof Tilley, Don and the rest).  I again start on the starboard side and work fore to aft, lower to upper.

The first thing to do is strop all the lower deadeyes to the channels.  Depending on the time period of your ship, this strop can be anything from actual chains, flat chain plates, one or two links long with a backing link connected to the hull, a straight rod with or without a backing link, to a flat metal bar.  You can purchase these metal strops at numerous internet sites such as ModelExpo, BlueJacket and CastYourAnchor to name a few.  Once those are completed you are ready to set up the upper deadeyes and shrouds.

You can set up the lanyard spacing by eye, which I have done at times, but personally I prefer to set up a spacing jig by using staples, both paper and staple gun size, that have a length a bit longer than the final spacing, this gives me some room to tighten the lanyards as needed. I then make it into an X by tying the center with thin wire. Now insert the shanks into the two bottom holes of the top deadeyes on the top and the two top holes on the bottom.  You can temporarily secure the shroud with a slip knot at this point.  

All the directions will be from the deck looking outboard.  You always start the lanyard with the upper left hole, threading the lanyard from inside to outside.  Tie a knot or two in the line that will hold it in place.  Now take the line and thread it from the outside in on the lower left hole.  Then up again and through the upper center hole and down through the lower center hole then up again to the right hole and finally down through the lower right hole.  Now you want to tie off the lanyard above the upper deadeye with about three or four turns, knot and leave it for 24 hours. You do the same thing to the other deadeye of the pair.

Now you are ready for the port side.  A good rule of thumb to remember is that the starting knot is always forward on the starboard side and aft on the port side.  The reason I tell you to leave the reeving tied but not glued is because as you go along you want to make sure the mast stays in line.  You wait 24 hours because it gives the rigging a chance to adjust itself.

Always remember to wax your lines, both standing and running.  Most people run their line through a block of beeswax a couple of times and then run it through their fingers to even it out.  I run my line through beeswax and then run it above a candle flame to really impregnate the line with wax.  You wax your lines to help repel dust but it also keeps it looking taunt.

I still have a long way to go before I feel my rigging looks sharp, partly because I tend to be a bit of a perfectionist, and partly because I know with practice and asking for help, I will get better, just try and not get frustrated.

There are a great number of really fine ship modelers here willing to help out when asked, so use this vast store of knowledge and keep on building!  Also, post pictures, we all like to look at what others are building.

One last tidbit, after about 30 minutes, take a break from rigging because you are probably cross eyed by then and always remember to have fun!

As always, I hope I helped and not hindered,

Steve

once again I appreciate your help thanks steve

Hey Guys-

I was looking for some info on shroud tension, and saw this thread...

I've been installing the lower shrouds on my Golden Hind, and I keep noticing that no matter how tight I pull the foremost shrouds on each mast, by the time I get to the aftmost shroud, the ones in front are slackened noticeably...it doesn't really make sense, but I suppose the obvious solution would be to rig the shrouds from aft to fore (as mentioned by Arnie above)...BUT, all the books I have say to rig from fore to aft....is there any reason for this?  

In what order do some of you run your shrouds??

Thanks!

David

I guess the real question is:

Are there any unforeseen difficulties that can arise from rigging shrouds aft-to-fore?

It's always risky to generalize, but in just about every decent set of plans I've seen, the lower standing rigging starts at the forward end of the gang. If the total number of shrouds is even, start with the first pair of shrouds (from the first deadeye around the lower masthead, and down to the second deadeye on the same side. If there's a swifter (i.e., an odd number of shrouds) the swifter comes first: from the first deadeye, up and around the lower masthead (or eye spliced around it), and down to the first deadeye on the other side of the ship. 

That stack of big loops of rope around the masthead, usually wormed, parceled, served, and tarred, is a prominent feature of virtually every sailing ship prior to the late nineteenth century. The stack sometimes goes a third of the way up the masthead. 

i don't have a magic solution to the problem of keeping the tension on the shrouds even. It's one of the trickiest, and most conspicuous, problem areas in rigging - doubly so because it comes so early in the process. (I have to relearn it for every model.) One technique that will help: let the mast lean over backwards a bit when you set up the shrouds. (You might try setting up a temporary, heavy line from the masthead to the rear end of your building board. Use that line to pull the mast back, set up the shrouds as fat as you can, and cut the temporary line loose.) Then use the stay, which goes over the masthead after the shrouds, to pull the mast back to its proper rake (if any). If, with the shrouds and the stay in place, all the lines are taut, the mast is properly raked, and it doesn't lean to one side, you've got a solid start to a good job of rigging.

Hope that helps at least a little.

Thanks for the input, John!

Two things:

1-So the swifter (single shroud for odd-numbered channels) goes up one side and down to the other side? For some reason I thought they went up one side, and around the masthead, and then tied or seized into a loop (similar to how a stay is tied off on a masttop), like how a gang is tied, but with one shroud of the gang cut off...and that there was a separate swifter for each side.

2- I see what you mean about the *laying* of the shroud loops over the mast head in a specific order...I ran all my shrouds around the mastheads, and tied each gang together up there while leaving the lower ends loose until I was ready to begin reeving lanyards.  At that point, all the shrouds are laid in the correct order, so would it be helpful from that point to begin at the aft-most shroud, and work forward?  I wonder if consistent tension could be achieved thusly?

I suppose I'll try it.  I still have the mizzen mast lower shrouds to do (only 3 per side), and all the topmast shrouds, so I guess I can practice on those.  

I'll say it's been a lot of fun so far to be working with *actual* chainplates, deadeyes, and lanyards...though it's a bit tricky at first, it makes a big difference in the overall look of the standing rigging!  Previously, I've tied shrouds and ratlines, but mostly just using whatever deadeyes and chainplates came with each kit (by cutting the plastic shrouds off above the upper deadeyes.  They never looked good enough, so I'm glad to be expanding my skill set in this way.

There are a couple of uneven upper deadeyes, despite my use of a spacing jig, but oh, well...I'm pretty happy overall with this attempt.

Thanks again!

David

I was recently going through some old boxes and found a copy of the 1976 "New" edition of MODELING THE CUTTY SARK by Edward Bowness.  The book in 8.5" x 11" soft cover format, includes the ship's lines and, a practicum/plans for building a 1/196th scale model.  The rigging plan is FAR more complex than that provided with Revell's large (1/96th) Cutty Sark.  Point is, the rigging guide illustrates and describes techniques that could be used to rig any mid nineteenth century sailing ship accurately.

The author suggests starting the standing rigging by stepping the lower masts, set up the shrouds starting with the Mizzen mast Starboard side.  When complete, the Top masts go up and so on...I'm guessing there are as many techniques as there are authors writing about them and modelers making them their own.

BTW...Amazon has one used copy of the first edition of this book from 1959.  They want $14.50 for it.

I paid 1 Pound 50 on board the ship in '76...

The order in which the three masts are rigged shouldn't make much difference. On the lower masts, at least, they're all pretty much independent of each other.

My habit is to rig the mainmast first (it's essentially identical to the foremast, but somewhat easier because it's bigger), then the mizzenmast (because it's simple, and different from the other two), then the foremast (which is mostly repetition, but having the other two finished provides inspiration). But I don't think it makes any difference. Then come the topmasts - in the same order. Then the topgallant masts, etc.

On one model I completed the standing rigging of the lower masts and the running rigging of the lower yards before setting up - or, in this case, making - the topmasts. That introduced some welcome variety into the job. It's also a good form of discipline: the lower masts and yards should be able to be worked perfectly well without the topmasts in place. (If they don't, something's wrong.)

I've seen drawings of that first shroud, or swifter, set up at least three ways: looped around the masthead, cut spliced around it, and rigged as two separate lines (port and starboard). In practical terms it makes scarcely any difference; at the masthead it's buried under all the other shrouds, and will be almost invisible on the finished model.

I've never gotten along well with jigs to set the spacing between deadeyes. I just rely on practice and judgment to get them right - and, not infrequently, a willingness to cut down a shroud and start over.

One other little trick. In most sailing ships there's a simple gadget called a bolster. It's just a quarter-round piece of wood nailed on top of each trestletree, alongside the lower masthead and the heel of the topmast. The lower shrouds go over it; the quarter-round shape keeps them from chafing too much. On a small-scale model it's sometimes handy to leave off the bolsters (which may or may not be molded in with the kit parts) till the lower shrouds are rigged. I then shape a bolster from a strip of wood that's considerably longer than the finished bolster needs to be, and carve a sharp wedge on one end. Slip the sharp point under the stack of shroud collars, shove it the rest of the way in, and snip off the end to the proper length. That gives a last yank to the shrouds, taking out any small bit of slack.

Hope all that helps a little. Good luck.

I find plastic spars weaker for their size than wood ones.  So changes in tension with humidity seems to make more of a difference in plastic sail models than in wood ones.  So I find I must be more careful tensioning shrouds in plastic models than with wood ones.

I agree - and I think the problem has gotten worse in recent years, as the quality of the plastic in many kits isn't what it used to be.

As I think about it, I realize that I haven't done a thorough rigging job on a set of plastic spars in - well, more years than I care to think about. The only exception is that nice little Revell Viking ship, the plastic in which was pretty good (and the rigging extremely simple). The Bounty and the Hancock have masts and yards turned from degama wood, and the Phantom's are birch.

It isn't as difficult to make spars as a lot of people seem to think. Just be sure you get good pieces of wood. Places like Lowe's and Home Depot sell dowels that may be made of oak, maple, or birch. You want birch with maple as a fair second choice. (Oak is awful for the purpose.) Unfortunately the suppliers sometimes don't seem to know or care what species they're shipping; you have to learn to recognize them visually. If it's heavy, super-stiff, and splintery with a prominent, coarse grain, it's oak; put it back in the rack. Birch is just about the right degree of flexibility, and its fine grain accepts stain pretty well.

I've read lots of times about commercially-available birch dowels warping hideously because the grain doesn't run parallel to the length, but the mills seem to have overcome that problem. I've got dozens of birch dowels lying around, and none of them has ever warped significantly.

The woodworking supply companies (e.g., Woodcraft) also sell cherry and walnut dowels. I don't particularly recommend walnut (that's American walnut, which generally isn't as nice for ship models as the European variety). Cherry is wonderful stuff. Its only problem as a spar material is that its color is on the dark side. If you're going to paint it, of course, that doesn't matter.

I don't want to go so far as to condemn all plastic spars categorically. But I suspect many modelers would find that wood ones make life easier.