SSGN-WIP...paint question

Good luck with your presentation and with finishing your model.  I would love a copy of your paper if you don't mind!

Bill

Awesome, glad to hear!

Hello all, I completed my research paper on submarines a couple weeks ago, though I was not able to go real in depth on either WWII, Cold War, or post-cold war submarines, I have definitely gained a much greater appreciation for submarines (and the Navy as a whole). I finished my senior thesis last night so now that that is out of the way I can get back to work on this build. I have it primed, I need to sand the seam of the top and bottom half of the hulls a lot more and then I'll paint it. My presentation is next monday and all I have is a paper due this friday so I'll definitely be able to get her done. Thank you for all the help and advice that you all have provided, it is greatly appreciated!

Thank you for the clarifications Tracy, GM, and Bill

I have also seen one photo of the USS Michigan (SSGN 727) in dry dock with the red lower hull.  This was sent to me by a crewman currently serving onboard.  I have also seen a photo of the USS Georgia (SSGN 729) in dry dock without the red.  However, I have also personally seen a model of the Georgia (SSGN version) made by a former Navigator onboard that had the red. There are various paintings of these ships that are easily found online in both configurations.

That said, it might depend on the date as to which is correct.  Tracy is in a better position than I to inform you about that. It might simply be a case of the red being correct at the time of conversion from SSBN to SSGN and all black today.  I will check with my friends currently serving.

Bill

I also use Aircraft Interior Black toned down just a little (eight parts black with two parts gray) with German Dark Grey. I then paint the non-skid with flat black for contrast. It gives me a scale effect that I like.

Bill

The old Polly Scale Steam Power Black and Engine Black are good ones too.

I don't have a good answer for you as I haven't seen any SSGNs in drydock *FOLLOWING* conversion, just before. The "common wisdom" is that the Navy has ceased using anti-fouling red on the SSNs, but I haven't seen if that is also extended to the Ohio Class or even the LA class, I've only seen it on the Seawolf and Virgnia classes.

I used the Aircraft Interior Black as it's a very, very dark gray that looks more "in scale." Pure flat black is too black and doesn't look "right" - this is something called scale effect that I don't always ascribe to, but tend to more often with black.

I used just plane modeling cement. I am hesitant to make anything brittle as I my track record is not very good when handling things that are far-gee-lay (must be italian). I tried scribing, and in person you can see a small gap, I will go back over it some more and then leave it alone.

And now a question about painting....

In a past post (searched on my phone so I do not have a url) it was noted that new subs do not have the hull red but rather its a kind of a grey/black instead. Tracy, you posted links to some of your builds of USS Skipjack and USS Los Angeles. On the Skipjack you used model master's "aircraft interior black" between the hull red and flat black top. The Los Angeles was just flat black with the red.

Would it be correct to use the aircraft interior black for below the waterline on this model, and flat black for above?

What did you glue the turtleback with?  If it was CA, a little debonder should take care of it with no damage to the parts.  Anything else may get brittle if you put it in the freezer for a few hours.  Then just a bit of sanding and you're back at it.  Or, you could just scribe heavily along the join and leave well enough alone.

Groot

Here she is

Thanks guys...I did glue those hatches on before I put the turtleback on...unfortunately I glued the turtleback on before I read your comment Bill and without look at pictures 

I tried to get it up off the hull which worked a bit on one side, not so much on the other...I'll post some pics in a bit.

Tracy,

I couldn't agree more! I am currently building the Ohio for my son-in-law's father who is from Ohio.  I also used to build this kit for sale to crewmen for each of the boats down at King's Bay, and I learned early on about these issues.

I found it easier to attach the hatches to the turtleback before attaching it to the hull. That way you can work on them from both sides. Note that is is just for the hatches you are closing.

Josiah,

There is one other area that requires real attention. The missile hatch covers have a tendency to sag if not done carefully. They should sit flush with the turtle back.

Bill

Josiah,

Be careful when attaching the turtle back to the hull.  There is supposed to be a gap along the length of the turtle back. You should cement only at the extreme forward end and the extreme after end of the part. Check photos of the actual ships to see what I mean.  I have seen too many well built Ohio class models with the part fully cemented to the hull with no gap appearing.

Bill

Xacto brand, got them along with some other tools from a guy from my dad's work.

Nice clamps. Who what where?

Well, progress is underway...this thing is huge. I'm going to leave the the rear two missile bays open to show the TLAM configuration. I'm also going to put on the various periscope/communications arrays til the end as I will invariably end up breaking them off.

Well I hope all of you don't mind, I'm going to do my WIP of this sub in this thread....I didn't want to leave all this knowledge left to whither into the depths of the forums.  If you guys have any objections just let me know and I'll create a new thread...and please, don't stop what y'all have been doing just cuz I'm changing the title to WIP, PLEASE continue.

Anyways, here are the kit contents for anybody who's interested, as I said before, first model of a seaworthy vessel that I've ever done but it doesn't appear to be anything I cannot handle... I will say this last thing, most of the pictures will be with my phone, though I will take finished pictures with my camera and if anybody wants detailed shots of anything I will use it then as well.

Tanker,

Renwal released different such kits under the name USS George Washington, USS Abraham Lincoln, and different molds for USS Ethan Allen and USS Thomas Jefferson.  Renwal did make the effort to model some external class differences such as the smoother forward end of the missile compartment and the different location of the sail planes, or fairwater planes in the Ethan Allen class. Early releases had a clear starboard side and a solid port side. This was later revised to a fold-down starboard side in lieu of the clear plastic.  The stated scale was 1/200 with a length of 25 inches.  Early releases included only one row of 8 Polaris missile tubes, later revised to two rows of 8.  The exterior shape was generally good but there was a molded on row of hand rails molded onto the sail.

Revell had their own USS George Washington that was also released as the USS Abraham LIncoln. It was shorter, measuring 18 inches, had no molded on handrails. Early releases had a fold-down starboard side; later releases had a cutaway starboard side.

I am unaware of these boats being released under any other names, but I suppose it was possible.  I also do not know which kit was released first, the Renwal or the Revell.

Bill

Hey Tracy :

      Didn't the RENWAL company do the George Washington with the clear sides before REVELL did it ? Seems to this fuddled old mind  . I did have both and the RENWAL boat WAS a wee bit larger than the REVELL boat as well . About an inch longer overall .

       I had the U.S.S. Nautilus with the windows and without .Again this seemed to be a company decision . My nautiluses were all black .That's what the instructions said to paint them . Only one had the windows . I had a Jane.s back then as a guide , so the badly molded Regulus went in the round file .

warshipguy

Throughout my career, these were painted a light gray with black mottling on the tubing. They were capped with black tops. Some boats even had sea-green on the extensions, but not all. Today, the masts and antennas seem to be painted a single color of dark-gray.

From the aforementioned instructions:

 "#27 Gray basic coat, spots with soft edge #7 gray, 50% of area spots, 50% of area background"

The #7 gray was a dark gray and could appear black, or it's possible that this was revised to black later on.

warshipguy

Tracy, Boomers do find it necessary to surface at times for various reasons, for example, MEDEVAC or personnel transfers.

I wasn't trying to suggest that they NEVER surfaced - I've seen too many steel beach photos to think so. More so that they should not as part of their normal missions. Camouflage from above is much m ore important than than from the side these days. We used to send submarines to loiter around enemy states to listen in on radio communications, but we have better resources now, so there's no mission that really requires a lot of surface time in the modern day.

Josiah,

As John Tilley has pointed out on occasion, we are a strange but harmless bunch. I would like to add to that assessment that we are a knowledgeable bunch of characters as well.

Anyway, back to your original question . . . the Dragon/ Cyber Hobby USS Florida will enable you to build a reasonable replica of one of the four SSGN conversions.

Bill

This thread is a wealth of information

It's interesting that none of us has even mentioned masts and antennas.  Throughout my career, these were painted a light gray with black mottling on the tubing. They were capped with black tops. Some boats even had sea-green on the extensions, but not all. Today, the masts and antennas seem to be painted a single color of dark-gray.

Tracy, Boomers do find it necessary to surface at times for various reasons, for example, MEDEVAC or personnel transfers. They do not do so in their patrol areas except in extremely rare emergencies. Remember, George Washington ripped the keel out of a Japanese ship once when surfacing under her.  All such surfacings are rare and dependent upon a given emergency situation, but they do happen.

Bill

The "gray sail" schemes weren't experimental, they were just evolutions to past patterns. During the war, Submarines were sometimes Measure 9 (all black), but more often they were in a submarine based version of Measure 32 (dazzle) that was either pattern 3SS or 9SS. The big take away is that these two schemes featured black decks, but lighter gray sails so that the subs could operate on the surface and be less conspicuous. The only difference between the two schemes was the gray that was used; one was a light gray and the other was a dark gray.

The 1953 Camouflage manual continued this - the schemes that were settled upon were the same and the only difference was the gray that was used (light, medium, and dark). "SS 7" used #7 "Navy" Gray, "SS-17" used #17 "Ocean" Gray, etc. Below is a snipped from the 1963 manual:

There are only three basic concealment painting measures for surface ships and four for submarines. With the exception of the LC measure for surface ships—which is a unique application of paints designed primarily to blend with foliage patterns along shorelines—all paint measures are variations of gray shades from dark to light.  These measures are designated by a number ("7," "11," "17," or "27") which equals the percent of light-reflectance of the gray paint applied to the large vertical surfaces—the sides—of the vessel under that measure. This degree of reflectance determines the darkness or lightness of a measure; thus the larger the percent of reflectance, the lighter the measure.

Following is a list of the authorized concealment painting measures:

Surface Ships

US17 (Basic shade of "Ocean Gray" applied to sides)

US27 (Basic shade of "Haze Gray" applied to sides)

LC (Foliage pattern of mottled greens, brown, and black applied overall)

Submarines

SS7 (Basic shade of "Navy Gray" applied to vertical surfaces)

SS11 (Basic shade of "Outside Gray" applied to vertical surfaces)

SS17 (Basic shade of "Ocean Gray" applied to vertical surfaces)

SS27 (Basic shade of "Haze Gray" applied to vertical surfaces)

The vertical surfaces by this time were just the sail - the turtle back did not count. Now, these weren't experimental schemes, but they weren't for every sub. Boomers shouldn't surface on patrols, so there's no need to have the gray sail, and the all-black sail becomes more appealing because it's better camouflage in the deep.

Essentially, nuclear power and ELINT aircraft killed the gray sails.

Tracy,

I certainly don't doubt what you are saying. In fact, your reference bears out what I've said, that it is possible that during the 1950's and 1960's there was some experimentation with colors for submarines. However, my own service in the Submarine Service began in the mid-1970's and lasted through 1996.  My service took me to every submarine base in the Atlantic and the Pacific, including the Mediterranean. I have been stationed aboard fast attacks and boomers. I live near Groton/New London now and am on the SUBASE at least once a week.  In all of that time I have never seen any submarine painted in anything but black. The only markings I have seen on commissioned boats is the draft markings.  I have never seen a boat with hull numbers painted on the sail or the hull, and the name of the boat is certainly not painted on.

Bill

warshipguy

Gentlemen,

Submarine hull numbers are simply plaques which are hung when in port and removed prior to going to sea.

Bill

"As Nautilus moved slowly through the inky blackness of Puget Sound, I sent word to Lieutenant Bob Kelsey, a Coloradan who had watch on the main deck, to paint over our identifying numerals on the bow, stern, and sail."

Highly recommended book BTW.

As far as the colors, the kit had an as-launched scheme that I recollect as basically black with a gray fairing along the top of the hull and a black sail. But I've misplaced the directions and in any case it deserves a better reference, so I'll leave it at that. Mine's all black.