Opinions of the Imai/ERTL Cutty Sark and Constitution?

Prison hulks like that were the germinating ground for some of the most spectacular ship models ever built: the famous POW models from the Napoleonic Wars. Most of them were made from animal bones, and rigged with human hair.

When I was in the eighth grade our sadistic English teacher (bless him) made us read Charles Dickens's Great Expectations. Though none of the scenes in the novel actually takes place on board a prison hulk, one of them plays a prominent role in the early chapters. I never forgot that.

Wonder how many public school eighth grade English teachers dare to assign that book nowadays.

A great weathered diorama could be easily made..with this as the theme.......:)

Here is a picture of the Constitution as a Receiving Ship. Another variation that I do not think I have ever seen anyone model.

Steve

Very interesting image...not seen this one.  and who would ever convert the Constitution into such a hulk?

Strange things have happened.  thanks for the image.

Rob

Roberto,

There is a kit on evilBay right now going for $16.99 USD but I am not sure how much international shipping would be.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221736576933?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I know Aoshima bought a number of Imai molds, such as the Cutty Sark but I am not sure about the Constitution. I agree it would be a nice addition to the market and for modelers who do not have the room or do not want to build the 1/96 Revell model.

I can post pictures of the kit but since this is Dave thread I do not want to highjack it.

Steve

I think it's on topic, sure David would agree.

Anything I've ever seen from Imai except for the early metal hull kits, is worth the discussion.

Any time we are discussing Imai, the Cutty Sark, or the Constitution in a single thread; we modelers are a happy camp.

Cheers friends.

Agreed!  This thread has been super-informative...thanks, you guys!

Also, it's not like a WIP, where it matters at all if it meanders off into separate discussions...I'm always interested in seeing pics and hearing opinions about various sailing ship models...

And I like that Monogram kit Steve linked...but 32 bucks for shipping?  Even for domestic economy shipping...seems steep!

Thanks docidle. I usually discard eBay items coming from the US though, as shipping costs more often than not are higher than the price of the item itself!

I have a 1/96 Constitution Hull build and painted.........I might build me a version that depicts her as a convict receiving hulk...it would be an amazing conversation piece.  I have a couple very good images of her in sucha state and other historical data that can be drawn from.  Hmmmm.

Rob

So far as I know, the U.S. Navy has never operated a prison hulk. The photo shows the Constitution during her service as a receiving ship - a floating barracks for newly-recruited enlisted sailors. Every American naval base in the continental U.S. had a receiving ship.

A receiving ship probably was almost as awful a place to live as a prison hulk.

If I remember right, the Constitution also spent some time as a floating barracks for midshipmen at the Naval Academy. Maybe the photo dates from that period.

Actually John, the picture is from 1905. In 1845 she was assigned to the Naval Academy as a training ship, although classrooms were constructed on the spar and gun decks, she was still used for summer cruises both before and after the Civil War. Her guns were reduced to 16 at this time.  The earliest photo of her is during repairs in 1858

After the war, the Constitution was ordered back to Annapolis with the Midshipmen and was able to drop her towing cable and sail back arriving before the tug that was originally towing her.

Steve

I stand corrected. But she never served as a floating prison - did she?

I didn't conclude from my research that the *receiving* stage was anything but.........I simply painted the term(Prison ship) broadly.   Good to know the Constitution was not employed as an internment vessel.

Thanks for clarity. Sorry for any error.

Rob

John,

No need to stand corrected, I know you pulled your information from memory, and was dad gum close, whereas I had to look it up! And yes, you are correct, she never served as a prison ship. I haven't been able to find any instance that a US Naval vessel served as a prison ship, but I could be wrong.

Steve

I just noticed that in the 1858 repair photo, the gun stripe runs all the way forward through the scrollwork. The bow is also completely enclosed. Interesting.

Steve

This from Wiki:

"Brig

A brig is a United States military prison aboard a United States Navy or Coast Guard vessel, or at an American naval or Marine Corps base. The term derives from the Navy's historical use of twin-mast sailing ships—or brigs—as prison ships."

Nothing like a non-referenced entry...

It didn't take long to see where the blogosphere thinks there are currently numerous "black sites" floating around.

But I can't find any historic references to US prison ships, two masted or otherwise. It almost has to be, though.

The bow was completely enclosed the first time I saw her. (That would have been in 1967.) I believe it was torn apart and restored more-or-less to its original configuration while Captain Martin was in command. To my eye the carpenters didn't quite get the curves of the rails right. I think the Revell rendition is a much better reproduction of how she looked before the bow was boxed in.

I had to search out the histories of all the USN ships that were in commission between 1815 and 60, for a chapter in a reference book that the Conway Maritime press planned but never published. That was quite a few years ago, but I certainly don't recall any reference to a USN vessel being used as a prison. I don't think the person who wrote that Wikipedia article knew what he/she was talking about. The British used plenty of former ships of the line for prison hulks. There wasn't any connection, so far as I know, between the brig rig and the use of the word to refer to an on-board jail. And it's not an American term; the British used it - and still do.

That's the trouble with Wikipedia. Nobody really checks out the credentials of the authors.

I'm not contemplating a prison hulk, a receiving ship, a powder hulk or any other such beast in the near future as a subject, but it would be an interesting use of one of the smaller scale Revell ships.

Now a Liberty as a cannery in Alaska, hmmm.

The Internet never lies....... Wink wink, nod nod.....

With my very own ears I once heard a seaman/guide on board the Constitution solemnly inform a tour group that the berth deck was called that because the sailors' wives were allowed on board in harbor nd that was the deck on which they had babies.

Gawd help us all.

John,

That is both amazing and so sad at the same time. Makes me wonder who gave the guide that information or if they used their mind numbing intellect to come to that conclusion!?

I reckon they didn't know nothing about birthing no babies...... Bad pun I know, but I couldn't help myself.

Bill, I agree that using one of the smaller Revell kits and scratching a Receiving Ship would make a very interesting model.

Steve

Yeah but in the defense of that, Steve, I usually find Wiki pretty useful when the footnotes are fairly complete.

Speaking of, Dr. Tilley is in the bibliography of a book I just read.

Oh it's probably something that diminishes in the face of the fact that there's even a willing audience.

I work in a 1876 building, where certain events in 1906 San Francisco happened right across the street.

General Funston blowing up buildings etc.

Probably two or three guided tours stop under my window every hour during tourist season.

Incredible stuff, mostly sort of kind of maybe a little right.

But I enjoy the fact that folks come from all over the world to stand below my window.

Just don't call it Frisco.

Naval officers are a varied lot in terms of their college educations; wardrooms having a healthy mix of English, History, Literature majors among the BBAs, Engineers, and the like.

So, the topic of naval lingo will crop up in bull sessions, or in those quiet spots between tasks.

Having heard--and participated in--many of these, I ascribe to the notion that the verb came first, that naval miscreants were "brigged."  Whether that comes from a sense of "razee-ing" the seaman from a full ship to something cut down to less; or from being put among brigands, I've no firm answer.

The way English will transmogrify verbs into nouns is far too well demonstrated to fuss much over.

That, and the verb sense is still in use, too.

Bill,

Which book was this? I would love to read it if possible.

Speaking of Wiki, I was doing an Upper Division class on the American Civil War and on the first paper, 80% of the students not only used Wiki but copied the entry verbatim. It was rather interesting seeing so many papers exactly the same. The Internet version of Cliff notes being used unwisely.

Steve

Derived from brigantine, which apparently was the primary kind of ship used for "jails". You got sent to the Brig(antine).

Also note used only by the Navy and Marine Corps, the army and air force sent their prisoners to the stockade, both terms still used today.

Arnie,

Do you know if the term originated in the Royal Navy or French Navy and was later incorporated into the American Navy?

Steve

docidle

Bill,

Which book was this? I would love to read it if possible.

Steve

Reviewed by me in the Ready Room (sort of).