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Revell Thermopylae..nostalgia build

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  • Member since
    March 2005
Posted by philo426 on Wednesday, April 1, 2015 10:52 PM

Replaced the plastic jibboom with brass tubing and reinforced the dolphin striker and catheads with an old airbrush needle to prevent deformation when the rigging is added.     

  • Member since
    March 2005
Posted by philo426 on Thursday, April 2, 2015 10:12 PM

Added the anchor chain and anchors,  

  • Member since
    March 2005
Posted by philo426 on Sunday, April 5, 2015 8:07 AM

Installed the anchor chain and anchors.  

  • Member since
    March 2005
Posted by philo426 on Monday, April 6, 2015 11:28 AM

Put a brass tube inside of the plastic mast halves and replaced the plastic upper mast with another tube.Relocated the shroud and ratline chains to the side of the hull.Made it necessary to tie my own ratlines due to the increased length.   

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, April 6, 2015 11:49 AM

Those black parts that you relocated to the side of the hull aren't chainplates. They represent the deadeyes and their lanyards.

They're supposed to be glued on top of the main rail - i.e., with the lower deadeyes next to the rail and the upper ones above, connected to the lower ones by the lanyards.

I'm not familiar with this "small" Thermopylae, but the 1/96 one contains additional parts that represent the chain plates.They're to be glued to the sides of the hull, directly below the deadeyes.

All this isn't really an accurate representation of how shrouds, deadeyes, lanyards, and chainplates are set up. But it's reasonably close.

The Cutty Sark's deadeyes are set up inside the rail; they sit on top of the pin rails. That's the reason some of the pin rails are so much wider than others. The wide parts have big notches cut in them; the notches locate the deadeyes of the Cutty Sark kit.

Just what to do about all this is, of course, entirely up to the individual modeler. But if I were you I'd take those deadeyes off the sides of the ship and put them where they're intended to go. The finished model will look a great deal better - and more authentic - if you do.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2005
Posted by philo426 on Monday, April 6, 2015 12:11 PM

The Thermopylae had the dead eyes on the side of the hull,not on top of the rail like the Sark so that is why I did it.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, April 6, 2015 12:52 PM

The Cutty Sark's lower deadeyes are not on top of the rail. They're inside it. Any decent photo or drawing will show how the arrangement works. It's a rather unusual one. There are no chainplates on the outside of the Cutty Sark's hull. The iron straps holding the deadeyes are riveted to the insides of the bulwarks. From outside the ship the lower deadeyes are invisible.

The Thermopylae's deadeyes were set up to external chainplates, as were those of most ships. The chainplates were iron straps, bolted to the outside of the hull. (Doesn't the kit have separate parts for that purpose? The 1/96 on does.) The lower deadeye in each pair should stick up above the main rail. Fastening a pair of deadeyes to the outside of a hull just doesn't make sense. Nobody can reach it to adjust the tension on the lanyard. (The upper deadeye in each pair has to be able to move, in order to do its job.) And if the deadeyes were mounted that low, the chainplates for them would have to extend below the waterline.

Here's a photo of the actual Thermopylae (in her later days): http://s018.radikal.ru/i528/1209/d9/616a25f5d52d.jpg . The photo is faded, but you can clearly see the lower deadeyes sitting a little higher than the main rail - and the upper deadeyes several feet above them. There are no deadeyes on the exterior of the hull. The chainplates apparently are painted white, along with the hull; I can't make them out.

Revell cut some corners on both kits - in both scales. (Neither Thermopylae kit has wood channels - chain wales - projecting out side the hull - as they should.) But there's just no way that deadeyes belong on the outside of the hull - with the lower ones close to the waterline. If you put the pieces together according to the instructions, you'll be fairly close to reality.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2005
Posted by philo426 on Monday, April 6, 2015 1:12 PM

Yes I guess Revell dropped the ball If I ever make the larger Thermopylae I will make the appropriate corrections.I guess the errors are both my fault and the kit;s fault.I have no interest in removing them as they look right to me even if they are historically incorrect.Most viewers in my home will not know the difference,all they will see is a sharp looking extreme clipper with fantastic lines and complex rigging.All that I require in most of my models.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Monday, April 6, 2015 2:49 PM

If you look at the model photos on your box top, it's clear what John pointed out is how Revell designed this model. Look at the thumbnail picture on the far right, just past the boats. The painting shows the deadeye assemblies where they belong too.

At the least you'll save yourself the trouble of fabricating longer shrouds and ratline assemblies.

If you are going to leave it as you did, you might at least glue a horizontal bar across below the lower deadeyes to look like a channel, and even stick chain plates on the hull down from there.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    March 2005
Posted by philo426 on Monday, April 6, 2015 3:40 PM

Yes I may do just that!I wonder if the Sergal Wooden kit is more accurate?

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Monday, April 6, 2015 4:59 PM

Well who knows? At the end of the day it's the builder, not the model. That model looks ok if the several online builders are to be believed. The Revell one you have clearly has the Cutty Sark stem, the Mantua one more rounded. Otherwise, hard to say without some study on your part.

Notice they rigged the deadeys and lanyards above the rails too. I think that's a pretty signature detail on these two ships.

But you've got to come to blows with a tendency I see in your posts: where you get crossed up, you profess not to care. That throws any notion of accuracy out the porthole.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by rdiaz on Monday, April 6, 2015 6:12 PM
As usual and as it's been told many times, it's all up to the individual modeler, but I fail to see what's the reason you relocated the deadeye and lanyard assemblies to the sides of the hull. It's not the kit's fault at all... I'd rather scratchbuild some chainplates if they're not included!

Just my two cents...
  • Member since
    March 2005
Posted by philo426 on Monday, April 6, 2015 6:27 PM

Because the instructions would have you put them atop the rail which is right for the Sark but not the Thermopylae.I like the way it looks so no changes are planned.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, April 6, 2015 7:16 PM

I'm sorry, Philo, but you're mistaken. The deadeyes on the Cutty Sark kit are designed to be mounted on the pinrails - the wide white ones that are glued inside the hull halves. (Those big square notches in the pinrails match the tabs on the bottoms of the deadeye strips.) if all the parts are located right, the lower deadeye in each pair doesn't show from the outside. That's a simplified, but reasonable rendition of how the real ship is built.

The Thermopylae kit's deadeyes are supposed to be mounted on top of the rails (i.e., the top edges of the hull halves). The chain plate parts are supposed to be glued to the hull sides below, and in line with, the deadeyes. That makes for a simplified, but reasonable, rendition of how the real Thermopylae was built.

Lest this thread turn into a flame war, let's acknowledge that modeling is a highly personal hobby. Serious scale ship modelers (for want of a better label) are interested (sometimes to the point of obsession) in how the real ships were built and what they looked like. Such a person wouldn't dream of gluing deadeyes to the side of a hull, or installing masts so they're ten or twenty feet taller than they're supposed to be. But there are no "rules" - thank goodness. And I don't think the modeler who does do such things is doomed to an extra month in purgatory. For most of us this is a hobby. The "right" approach is the one that affords the builder the most pleasure and satisfaction.

Later:  My infernal phone's so-called "spell checker" turned "pinrails" into "pintails." I caught it several hours later. Sorry about that.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2005
Posted by philo426 on Monday, April 6, 2015 7:58 PM

Ok!now that we have finished cudgeling the Equine I will resume updates as they occur and accept that it will not be accurate.It will be extremely attractive  however and will fulfill my desire to build a kit that is similar to one that was lost in my youth.

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Monday, April 6, 2015 11:51 PM

You go Philo.  Purists at what ever level they attain in their progress toward greater purity...tend to adhere to the exact scale and actual schematic of the modeled vessel they are building(Not to mention the ones they are critiquing) .  And as so respectfully noted, it is the builder who makes the call on his build.......and as you have expressed you have a youthful emotion associated with this build...so your connection transcends  all else.  The stuff of the hobby I think.  You're having fun...the emotion of the build heightens that fun...and so you are find satisfaction.  Tadaaah.........    smooth sailing.

Rob

  • Member since
    March 2005
Posted by philo426 on Tuesday, April 7, 2015 9:36 AM

Yes I appreciate all of the info but since the hull is that of the Sark,it CANT be an accurate representation of the Thermopylae as she was..I just have fun with my models and dont really stress too much if ihey are not 100% accurate.This is supposed to be fun but some guys take it way too seriously!

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Tuesday, April 7, 2015 10:18 AM

What bothers me are statements such as "Revell dropped the ball".

No, you just built it incorrectly and didn't follow the directions. You clearly stated you wanted to build a Thermopylae.

If you have deviated from that fine, and whether or not you follow kit directions is of course your business.

But that is not what's engendered the (hopefully helpful) criticism. It is not a case of the others taking it way too seriously. If you don't want to learn from your mistakes and instead call them "creativity", ok.

This isn't about purism or experts being picky.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    March 2005
Posted by philo426 on Tuesday, April 7, 2015 10:44 AM

Its ok!When I build the big Connie,i expect more helpful advice!

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, April 7, 2015 10:51 AM

philo,

Look at the photos I sent of the Scientific Thermopylae I sent to you.  They clearly show the positions of the deadeyes and chainplates.  In fact, you can see quite clearly the shape of the stern, the deck furniture arrangements, the deck plans, etc.  I had hoped that these photos would be helpful to you.  I am still scanning the plans for you.

Bill

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Tuesday, April 7, 2015 11:31 AM

Philo...along with your artistic license..you must remember that this is indeed FINE SCALE MODELER...and many hear are simply attempting to help steer you in the right direction...where accuracy is concerned.  If you truly wish to build a particular vessel then such advice is warranted......however, if you merely want a green, clipper designed ship, that appears to be what it is to the unskilled eye...then you have ample room to *go at it*.  But please be advised the advice and criticism you have received and may get in the future is also from folks who have a passion...not unlike your own..and sometimes it is as serious to them as you're taking it *not to serious and free spirited* .

It's all about perceptions.  And that is what the hobby rests upon...Perception.

You're having fun and that can be all that matters. To others, it may require far more ingredients.

Clear sailing.

Rob

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by rdiaz on Tuesday, April 7, 2015 11:40 AM

Come on Philo, we're just trying to help - as a community, we're here to help each other, and constructive criticism is part of it. You re-arranged the deadeyes and lanyards because you thought it would be more accurate, which means you're, after all, looking for a certain degree of accuracy. In accordance to that, jtilley explained why gluing those parts to the sides of the hull is not correct, and all of a sudden you're not interested in accuracy anymore, but rather decide to leave it as is and say it looks fine. It just looks like the main driving force behind that decision is simply that you don't want to re-do all the work. And that's of course fine; you decide what to do, but this is a forum and as such we're just suggesting things!

  • Member since
    March 2005
Posted by philo426 on Tuesday, April 7, 2015 12:31 PM

I enjoy taking artistic licence with almost all of my builds.This is the first time in dozens of projects that my build log has raised the ire of some of the members of the FSM community.I have always built and painted my models exactly the way I wanted to.While I appreciate the helpful hints ,I dont really need to explain myself .If this build log bothers you guys don;t respond. I would never badger another member like some of you guys did!

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, April 7, 2015 3:00 PM

Philo,

Anyway, you haven't raised my ire.  Enjoy your model.  The kit doesn't really depict the Thermopylae, so be creative!  You cannot ruin a model of a non-ship.  Have fun!

Bill

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, April 7, 2015 3:00 PM

My ire wasn't raised either. But it doesn't do anybody any harm to step back and think for a minute about just what the objectives of his or her hobby are, and where it fits in the grand scheme of things.

The term "scale model" implies that the model in question is a replica of some larger object. (There are other kinds of modeling, such as abstract sculpture.) I got interested in scale modeling when I was about five years old, and I've been interested in it ever since. One reason (maybe the biggest) is that I'm interested in the prototypes - the objects we build scale models of. My first model was a Revell DC-7 airliner. I got excited when a real DC-7 flew over our house, and my parents took me out to the airport to look at the real things closeup.

To me (and, more to the point, to a great many scale modelers) there's not much separation between model building and study of the real things. When I was in the seventh grade my father gave me a copy of Bjorn Landstrom's wonderful book, The Ship, for Christmas. I was hooked. I've been buying and reading books about ships ever since. I've lost track of how many ship books I've bought, but it has to be well up in the hundreds.

And fictional sea stories, too. My mother checked Lieutenant Hornblower out of the library for me about a year later - just after I'd built (though I suspect that's a generous term for it) the Revell H.M.S. Victory.

For me (and, I suspect, to lots of other people), model building and interest in the prototypealways went hand-in-hand. Before I built that model I'd never heard of Lord Nelson. So I started hanging out at the library, and read everything about him I could get my hands on (starting with A.B.C. Whipple's biography for young readers). To me there wasn't much of a gap between models and history. I also built aircraft and tanks - and was constantly reading books about them.

To me (and lots of other people) a model is a research project. I want to know as much as I can about whatever I'm building in model form. That means reading, reading, and more reading - as well as studying plans, photos, and paintings. The idea of building something I know nothing about just isn't part of my cosmos. In high school art class I painted pictures of ships and airplanes (horrible pictures, I'm sure). I wrote papers about nautical topics whenever I could (to the point where the teachers ordered me to write about something else). By the time I finished high school it was taken for granted that I was going to major in history at college. When I was doing research for my M.A. thesis and Ph.D. dissertation, I was using the chance to find out everything I could about eighteenth-century warships. My degree, and my models, got me a job (extremely low-paying) in a maritime museum - and that got me a job in the university from which I'm going to retire next year.

Is that the only "right" way to do it? Of course not. I think my approach to scale modeling is a common one among members of this Forum, but model building (for most of us) is a hobby. People do it for lots of reasons, ranging from creating decorative objects to physical therapy.  However a hobbyist wants to do his or her hobby is his or her business, and nobody else's. If somebody were to propose a law requiring that anybody who wanted to build a ship model had to read at least five books about ships first, I'd be among the loudest protestors.

I have noticed, though, that the idea of "I don't care whether it looks like the real thing or not - I like it" seems to be more prevalent in the sailing ship genre than in others. For instance, I'd be surprised if somebody said, "I think the U.S.S. Missouri would look better with two main gun turrets instead of three, so that's how I'm going to build my model." Or "I think a B-17 would look better with two engines, so I'm leaving two off mine." I don't suggest that a person who did such a thing ought to be thrown in jail, or ceremoniously cast out of the FSM Forum into the Outer Darkness. But it sure would seem...odd. To me, redesigning the rigging or spar dimensions of a sailing ship because I like it that way would be just as odd. If that makes me a "purist," I have to plead guilty.

I've also noticed that I'm not the only one who's caught the "interest in the prototype" bug through model  modeling. Our good Forum friend David K. started sailing ship modeling by professing that he wasn't interested in accuracy. We've had the pleasure of watching his models evolve from the very good to the outstanding - and, though he still tries to deny it, he's become quite knowledgable about sailing ships and maritime history along the way.

But to each his own. That, to me, is the bottom line. I don't believe any modeler should do something to a model that he/she doesn't enjoy. To me, that means doing something that isn't historically accurate. If others have a different definition - so be it.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Tuesday, April 7, 2015 3:34 PM

I see you have what looks like a Devastator as your avatar image.....that is one of my favorite pre-war torpedo bombers.  I was a very avid WW2 war plain builder myself.  TBF and M's, corsairs, P-40's and Kingfishers.  I just love water aircraft.  I Love Navy plains..best, I think.

I can see you have been around the forum for some time..sporting 5 stars an such.. I suggest you .please don't take away from this any bad feelings...we all at times get too passionate about our hobby, but I surely bet  every active member here will agree......it is truly about the pleasure of the build...how skillful and accurate and aesthetic one delivers is up to the builder and it isn't any bodies business to judge that...unless it is requested.  We all just want to help.

Rob

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Tuesday, April 7, 2015 3:47 PM

Personally, I'm a history and historical buff.  I build my models even to the particular date or event I wish to capture it in........ships can take on lives representative of there captains preferences.  Rigs can change over time...so can deck furniture and accommodations...not to mention paint schemes.  Did you know the model you are currently building spent time white...not green?    History is fun...not to mention when you research your model...the things you can discover.

Rob

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Roanoke, Virginia
Posted by BigJim on Tuesday, April 7, 2015 6:26 PM

jtilley
Here's a photo of the actual Thermopylae (in her later days): http://s018.radikal.ru/i528/1209/d9/616a25f5d52d.jpg . The photo is faded, but you can clearly see the lower deadeyes sitting a little higher than the main rail - and the upper deadeyes several feet above them. There are no deadeyes on the exterior of the hull.

May I ask a question?
Searching for photos/painting/models/etc. of the Thermopylae shows rigging all over the place. What appear to me to be the more credible examples agree with the above quote. 

My question is, if we accept the above as true (In no way am I implying that it isn't), why are so many of the paintings incorrect? Uneducated artists?

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Tuesday, April 7, 2015 6:38 PM

Maritime painters don't always get to see the subject, or if they did were only able to make sketches on the spot and then relied on those, other paintings, and their memories. Modelers, who knows?

When the subject gets around to Victory or Constitution, watch the fur fly.Pirate

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, April 7, 2015 7:54 PM

Lots of things need to be considered when evaluating a picture for model building purposes. One is the "primary/secondary" question. A photo is, almost by definition, a primary source. A painting by an artist who is known to have looked at the ship is a primary source. (When it comes to clipper ships, some of the best sources are paintings by Chinese artists. They didn't necessarily know much about ships, but they were really meticulous in painting exactly what they saw. Currier and Ives prints are also excellent.)

Paintings made later are secondary sources. They run the gamut from excellent to awful. The paintings by Jack Spurling, Gordon Grant, John Stobart, and Geoff Hunt are based on thorough research. Plenty of others were painted by people who knew nothing about ships, and were working from other secondary sources. (I've seen lots of book jacket paintings that I could recognize as copied from photos in the National Geographic.) In any case, research can, for plenty of legitimate reasons, be faulty. 

Almost every pre-twentieth-century painting found in a museum, gallery, or private collection has been restored at least once - by somebody who may or may not have known anything about ships. I've seen the rigging on paintings by eminently respectable eighteenth- and nineteenth-century marine artists get thoroughly wrecked by well-meaning restorers. (The same thing has happened to lots of old ship models.)

Another problem is that ships' rigging changes. That photo of the Thermopylae was taken late in her life, when she was painted white and rigged as a barque. The Cutty Sark originally had a main skysail yard, but it was removed fairly early in her career. The Constitution's rig changed enough over her career to make your head spin.

Here's another shot of the real Thermopylae, dated 1880:

In this one she's rigged as a barque, and for some reason she has a single topsail on the foremast. The mainmast still has double topsails. The main yard is "cockbilled" for use as a cargo boom. And it looks like a new cargo boom has been fitted to the mizzenmast. She didn't look much like this when she was in the tea trade.

Unless the modeler is really lucky, he can never be absolutely sure about every piece of rigging. More typically, lots of details have to be filled in on the basis of contemporary practice. That means research - which some people enjoy and others don't. I spent several years trying to figure out all the details of the rigging of the frigate Hancock - and if I were to build that model again I'd change several things on the basis of what I've learned since I finished it.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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