"Correct" Color for an Early Elco 80' PT Boat/South Pacific Theater?

I guess all those years of IPMS before I joined the Army paid off ;) I had a serious idea of FS colors, camo patterns, and related things already in my head by the time I arrived at Benning. The modeler inside me noticed all sorts of stuff from day 1 there. I know most GIs didn't care about such things, but I did.

And Stikpusher, there's a very good reason why you are an active participant in a model and history discussion forum- you notice stuff around you. Most people don't.

I asked my father in law what colors the Beaufighter was that he flew for the USAAF in Tunisia. Now mind, this is a pretty arcane question because there is scant information on reverse lend lease aircraft in 1942.

"How the hell would I know? I was too busy climbing in and out of the damn thing!".

What Tracy said, doubled.

No, it didn't .... and don't take that film as an accurate gospel account.

No problem, Steve.  Glad to have helped ... but, my advice?  Listen to Dr. Ross.

I don't know. Some of us vets can be pretty good about colors, even without formal training in color theory.

Dr. Hu

wouldn't it make sense that the colors used on the PT Boats in the film reflected the true colors of the deployed PT's ?

Sorry, but no. Unless Kennedy was trained in color theory before the war there's no way that's anywhere close to being useful.

OK I know that this may sound simplistic but..... the movie PT 109 was filmed in color. John Kennedy watched the movie while he was president and was impressed with the accuracy and detail used in creating the film.  Since he was there and approved wouldn't it make sense that the colors used on the PT Boats in the film reflected the true colors of the deployed PT's ?

Just a thought

Doc Hu

Gentlemen,

I want to thank all of you for the input and help.  I do have all the books listed for my research as well as "Hunters in the Shallows" by Curtis L. Nelson. All good material and it is good to know that I was heading in the "right" direction.

I received my ColourCoats paint today from Warships Hobbies and checked them to the Snyder and Short Paint Chips to see what was what. The MTB color was a match for Green#2 so that will be the base color for the Later Version model. The Tropcial Green has a blueish tint to it but I think it will do the trick especially after weathering her.

I was able to sand down the seam on the torpedo tubes today after filling the minimal seam with Mr. Surfacer 1000, my LHS was out of 500. I think it actually did the trick better than the 500 due to the slightness of the seam. They look great after a coat of primer now. As I said earlier, I am impressed with the fit of the parts so far except for the gap on the forward starboard side gun turret where it connects to the charthouse.

Anyway, thank you again for all the input, I really appreciated it. Who knows, after finishing this kit and the later version, I might have to do an Atlantic or Mediterranean version.

Steve

Dr. Ross, I think the 167 carried it into action as well.  Remember that famous photo of her with the hole in her bow from the un-exploded Japanese torpedo launched by a torpedo bomber?  She was wearing stripes too.

In this instance?  I'd listen to Al and Ed.

But, may I ask a couple of questions of Dr. Ross about this?

Al, I lost my copy of that Swasey document which Alyce Guthrie sent me a few years ago, ... what did he say, exactly, about that yellow and green variation of the scheme?

Another question, Al?  With that variation, would the boats have Deck Green decks?

Al, above - you said that, at least 3 of RON 10's boat carried the Adapter Scheme into action.  Do you think/believe that the 174 did as well?  The reason I am asking; I have seen a 'famous' photo of the 174 in a Green scheme, running at speed - fitted with the shielded 40mm which was fitted to the foredeck after her arrival in theater, and one or both of  her machine gun turrets have its/their canvas cover(s) ... if memory serves, one of the covers had stripes on it - which tells me they were dyed to match the scheme.

What do you think?

Thank you,

Tim

I think that they painted out the adapter stripes (i.e. the entire boat) with dark green. They didn't paint out the white stripes with green as the model seems to suggest.

Acdtually, at least three of the RON10 boats carried the Adaptor scheme into combat.  Chun has photos of 166 burning after a friendly fire incident on 7/20/43 and AT CLOSE QUARTERS has a photo of 164 with her bow blown off by a Japanese bomb at Rendova on 8/1/43.  Both boats (plus one accompanying 166) are in the Adaptor scheme.

Al Ross

Edit :  Al's drawing is port & starbord views of the item I referenced in Chun

Chun's "American PT Boats of World War II"  includes a copy of the ELCO Adapter Scheme drawing (stbd side only).

Chun states that the adapter scheme was ineffective in the Pacific.  The crew quickly painted over the stripes with dark green.  "The only area the zebra pattern was used was in the Mediterranean".  

So that lets out the zebra as meeting the original poster's South Pacific needs.

Chun also has several zebra photos not generally seen.

The previously cited "Allied Torpedo Boats" by Lambert & Brown shows photos of several different adapter schemes and state that 'no two Adapter patterns were exactly alike'.      Further they state that the only users of the black & white version were Higgins boats of Squadron 15 in the Mediterranean.

Once again the Mediterranean lets out the OP's  South Pacific needs.

GMorrison:  The text which accompanies Shaun Symonds build shown in Lambert & Browns book indicates that he used  Gator Mask masks to paint the pattern.

An alternate source of the pattern may come from eCardModels.   They offer a 1:48 paper model of an 80' ELCO in zebra.    Use some creative Xerography to blow the paper model up to 1:35 -- then cut the stripes and apply as masks.   A water-soluable glue stick (grade school item) is good to temporarily attach paper strips as hard-edge masks

Here is an original ELCO drawing for one iteration of the original gray/white/black Adaptor scheme:  i73.photobucket.com/.../adaptor_zpsmmxjehhg.jpg

David Swasey, a camofleur at ELCO describes the green version:  "...we used a light yellow green as the base instead of the white, retaining the black stripes as before".

There are four B&W photos of some of the green boats on ATASCOSA (AO66) at www.navsource.org , one of which is shown here:

i73.photobucket.com/.../091906603_zpsepdehxvv.jpg

Notice how light the non-black areas are compared to the green paint on the model on the book cover.  It would seem the model color is quite different from that actually used on the real boats  I suspect that the actual color was more like 5LG or 5PG, but that's strictly a guess.

Al Ross

Yes, .. that is the Italeri 596 kit backdated to the 103-196 series and done in the Adapter Scheme ... if I remember - the write up in that book about the model on the cover explains about the scheme.  Interesting book though, a good reference book - better than any of my stuff, hands-down.

A source?  There are a few.

Al Ross

Maybe www.pt103.com has something?

Would Snyder & Short have anything?

Go to www.ptboatforum.com and ask there ...

Contact PT BOATS INC at ptboatshq@gmail.com ...

Not to be a nit, but the cover photo is of a model, right?

That's not a credible source. Is there any source known that the modeler referred to?

Link to that review.

Try this book:

cover art

Allied

Torpedo Boats

by John Lambert

and

Les Brown

Reviewed by Sean Hert cover art

In this special, hard backed volume of the Shipcraft series, the topic is the Allied Torpedo Boat. This edition is twice the size of the standard book, and covers the pre-war and wartime evolution of the torpedo boat. Developments in horsepower and firepower, and the subsequent implementation thereof are discussed, giving ample coverage to both the Royal Navy and the United States Navy forces. Some of these developments benefitted both navies, while others reflected the differing missions and requirements of each service.

Book Contents

Coastal Forces Development 915-1945

Model Products

Modelmakers's Showcase

Colour Schemes

Construction

Armament

Appearance

Experimental Craft

Selected References

The nine sections of this book are somewhat deceptive. The first three parts are substantive with plenty of text, photographs and drawings. There is no break identifying the color section from the showcase, however; the color scheme section is very short; six pages. The construction section is even shorter; only 4. The armament section returns to the lengthy character of the earlier sections.

One standard of the Shipcraft series is the Model Products section. This is always interesting, seeing coverage of all the various kits in a variety of scales that are available. This subject matter is conducive to a larger variety of scale than usual, as well a greater selection of accessories, making the Products section an even more enjoyable read than usual.

It would be remiss not to discuss the line drawings in this book. Al Ross and John Lambert, both well known illustrators in our rarified world of interests, both lend their considerable talents to this volume. Rarely a page goes by without another stunning illustration from one of them. Not only are they masters of their craft, but the drawings they produce are usable as primary references for your own custom projects.

Steve Wiper and T Garth Connelly aided this reference by providing photographs- and their collective experience shows. There are some great shots of these small craft, many of which will be fresh to you. The color photographs are an unexpected pleasure; it is always a treat to see quality color images taken during the war. The only fault is in their number- there are too few!

CONCLUSIONS

This book is a great volume for those with an interest in mosquito boats, although modelers who are already fairly knowledgeable on the subject will find this volume has little to offer. ] The drawings by Ross and Lambert, however, are worth the price of admission alone. The fantastic and uncommon photographs reproduced herein are a very tasty icing on the cake. This volume, however, only offers information on the torpedo boat; coverage of the gunboat was left out due to space considerations.

Allied Torpedo Boats is available direct from the publishers; in the United Kingdom, from Seaforth Publishing (an imprint of Pen and Sword books); in North America from Classic Warships direct or from one of their dealers. Prices vary.

© ModelWarships.com

PTConsultingNHR

I won't comment  on it.  A little busy with class in my 2nd term of my Masters program online at SNHU.

Why trouble yourself to post this in that case?

But I am curious to see what the yellow green shade is... it sounds so terrible to see that it would make a great "yes this was for real" build.

I won't comment  on it.  A little busy with class in my 2nd term of my Masters program online at SNHU.

No, no. The idea was for the Japanese to die laughing.

PTConsultingNHR

No problem, Steve,

The Adapter Scheme - as applied to the boats of RON 10, ...

From www.ptboatworld.com, "a modification of this scheme was applied to a number of Elco 80 foot PT-103 Class boats, PTs 163 - 174. This modification utilized an yellowish green in lieu of the white stripes. The scheme proved to be unsuccessful and was painted over with a more appropriate scheme."

That sounds like it would induce nausea on first sight...

No problem, Steve,

The Adapter Scheme - as applied to the boats of RON 10, ...

From www.ptboatworld.com, "a modification of this scheme was applied to a number of Elco 80 foot PT-103 Class boats, PTs 163 - 174. This modification utilized an yellowish green in lieu of the white stripes. The scheme proved to be unsuccessful and was painted over with a more appropriate scheme."

 

I feel sad for the next generation's Tracy White--they'll have to go through Type Commander reports, too.

They will have to sort through all the anecdotal evidence on things like "easter egg cammo" but with no accompanying policy statements.

I know exactly what your talking about Tracy.  After reading what you have on your website and being in the Navy, I know how insane it can be drilling down from the larger subject to the myriad subsets.

As I said before, I appreciate what you have done. The WWII camo site alone is worth it's weight in gold.

Steve

Could be "done" as far as researching on the next trip (hopefully October). Last remaining part is trying to learn if there were official documents I can use about deck spotting so we can figure out some good accurate examples and the "whys'.

Camouflage will be difficult in that I have to balance the areas left I can research against "get it done!" I could literally spend another decade researching it, but that's ten whole years that people couldn't learn what I already have as well. The Bureau of Ships had camouflage files for every type, every class, and nearly every ship separately (so, a camouflage section for cruisers, and a separate section for Baltimore class Cruisers, and a separate section for USS Baltimore). That makes for a lot to go through, and that's just the Bureau of ships side. There's also Chief of Naval Operations, CINCPAC, CINCLANT, CINCSouWestPac, Fleet Maintenance Office, the Commandants of the various naval districts, Ship yards, ... I haven't figured out if there's a place where repair ship files were stored.

These can all be useful, because if I find the same record in two places, I can see by the date stamps how long it took to spread to point B, and how much longer it took to get to point B than A. So, bringing this back to PTs, when did BuShips issue a green paint formula to PT boats, and how long did that take to get to the squadrons fighting at the front. Once there, how long did it take them to procure these new paints? You can't make money doing that much research so it's never really been done, it takes someone doing it as a hobby as a long term project to try and find some of this stuff, but it may also be a wild goose chase.

It's a fun one though, to me.