Yards-Akimbo

In fact my Heller Victory model has the top masts struck as well.

Why?

Modeler hasn't gotten that far...

There's a bit of "ship shape and Bristol fashion" to having the yards squared away and hoist high (and not in their lifts).

It's a "fashion" rather than a dogma. 

Much like the "tradition" of not displaying sails on warships, and the reverse on merchant vessels.

There's a very good case to be made for displaying model ships "in ordinary." 

The problem being that the non-afficianado is not likely to understand what they are seeing.  Upper masts struck, yards stowed, jib booms hauled in, were all perfectly ordinary ways of seeing vessels "back in the day."

But, that's like showing a formula or stock car they way they would be seen in the garage--wheels & body work off, on jack stands, and so on.  A 'casual' viewer, being used to, perhaps, reaceday appearance, would likely see that depiction as "unusual" or "different."

Or much in the same way a casual viewer might see a warchip in blue or green caamo, or with a green hull bottom.  Consider Measure 11--Sea Blue and pale gray and a dark blue deck--this is not going to "make sense" to people who only think of warchips as "gray." 

(And, of course the light-sucking void of Measure 21, which might as well be flat black overall, whic hcan only be made more perverse to the less-awar eye by including the pure white countershading of "permanently shadowed" areas.)

Or the Italian battleships with kelly green bottoms as striking red and withe stipes on their decks as not going to look especially "martial" to the casual viewer--even if entirely accurate and historically correct.

We do all this for ourselves, to the satisfaction of our abilities, and the limits we put upon our research (can we afford another book?)

CapnMac82

But, that's like showing a formula or stock car they way they would be seen in the garage--wheels & body work off, on jack stands, and so on.  A 'casual' viewer, being used to, perhaps, reaceday appearance, would likely see that depiction as "unusual" or "different."

Bill

My understanding is that if naval vessels were in port for a quick visit the yards were all braced up square, wheras many merchant ships were not.  There are good photos of large merchant ships tied up a wharf in NYC harbor with meaning qf another akimbo- pointin every direction.

Curse you, Capn, I just lost an entire day reading about US Naval Camouflage Paterns. I cannot imagine a more frustrating situation for a skipper in WWII than trying to keep up with all the Measures while fighting a war. Delegation would be absolutely necessary. 

This is interesting:LudVigVonM:

 I believe this is why even with all the photos available no one really knows the state of the paint colors on the Arizona that terrible day!It has been said that the Admiral was somewhat  lax in keeping up with the measures issued. 

Well it's your thread so hijack away. Changing Measure of a ship would certainly be something only done in port. There are always exceptions, and given the state of outdoor photography 90 years ago, subbsequent film deterioration etc. it's not easy to tell what's what.

People like Tracy White have the information, usually in written form, in the way of Fleet Orders etc.

When I built my Juneau, it seemed like the two sides of the ship were two different patterns, if not really measures. Photos of the wreck seem to bear that out.

Bill

US Naval Camouflage Paterns. I cannot imagine a more frustrating situation for a skipper in WWII than trying to keep up with all the Measures while fighting a war.

The Measures were around a year apart per each, and many were Theater-specific.

So, Measure 12 stayed "persistent" in much of the Atlantic, particularly the South Atlantic, where the major worry was being sighted from the surface (or by submarine periscope.  With 11 the "go to" where aircraft might be present.

It was less effective in the deep dark sunny blue of the Pacific, and where aerial observation made Measure 21 the best choice.  But, also Measure 22 where less aircraft were an issue.

The "splotchy" versions of 12 were more about martial appearance--and were very much to local command preference.

Ships spent a lot of time in port--it's the nature of the beast.  Several hundred sailors consume a lot of consumables.  So, you need to get to port.  Fuel is not a casual item, either.  SO, shihp deployments tended to be measured in weeks, not months or years. Most ship Histories for USN ships will show they were manking Port Calls around every 3 weeks or so.

Being at sea is hard on paint.  So, there's constant painting duty for the Deck Department (which is often a hundred or more Saliors).  And, with several hundred Saiors about, you can get paint on pretty quickly.  Especially if you already have the paint handy.

This is why I have a huge gripe with those weathering USN vessels as if they had spent three years in Stalingrad.  Or with the appearance of the average commercial vessel with a crew of perhaps 25.  (Subs get a "pass" as they were very beat up on patrol, and painting them was not a huge crew priority.)

Now, being a Port Captain, and having to maintain the raw paint supplies to equip every visiting ship--that would be thousands of 5 gallon and larger buckets of paint.  Flammable paint that is sensitive to storage conditions.  And if you were not near a rail connection for that supply, you had to wait for a supply ship filled with paint buckets & barrels.

This is why ship modeling is so requisite on photos, too.

Consider USS Texas.  She was in Measure 12 in 1941.  Then Measure 12 (mod) for 1942.  Then, she wore Measure 22 for '43 and '44, to end up in Measure 21 in 1945.

CapnMac82

This is why I have a huge gripe with those weathering USN vessels as if they had spent three years in Stalingrad. 

Bill

CapnMac82

This is why ship modeling is so requisite on photos, too.

Consider USS Texas.  She was in Measure 12 in 1941.  Then Measure 12 (mod) for 1942.  Then, she wore Measure 22 for '43 and '44, to end up in Measure 21 in 1945.

 

Add to that Measure 31a/8b  The Texas was painted into this dazzle pattern during the yard period in New York following the Overlord and Dragoon operations.  She was not in this measure long, was painted into  Ms 21 by February 1945.

Immediately post-war she was painted, along with the rest of the US fleet, into Gray #27.  This would become the basis for Fed-Std x6270.    She was in this camouflage when transferred to Texas as a museum ship in 1948  (Fact -- the propellers, shafts, and shaft struts were removed prior to the transfer.  The rudder is frozen at 19degrees port.   She will never sail independently. )    The Texas remained in this paint until the 1988/89 refit after which she exited wearing Measure 21 -- using a commercial  equivalent to 5N Navy Blue.

Tanker-Builder

Hi!

     I am sure those of you who've built ships of sail have heard this term. Without doing research, do you know what the title means? If you don't, then you need to do that research. When a sail ship was pierside for more than a week sometimes the sails were brought down and sent to the loft or taken below and repaired.

   The Yards would have maintenance done on them and associated rope work repaired or have replacemant done on them. They would be place 'Akimbo: without sails. Why? Well what is the worst enemy to wood? Water! So rather than the yards sitting as if they had sails on them, they would be placed one side down to allow water to run off and therefore keep say, rain from sitting on them and seeping into the inevitable cracks allowing that spar to weaken or rot!

      So, My question is this. Why do models sit as if sails were set? Sure maybe it makes them look purty, Really! Or complicated. But the truth of it is to me, if you are modeling say, the "Cutty Sark" in port, she will be there for some time. Yards "Akimbo: is proper if she's between cargos. Remember sometimes they had wait until a contract was made to sail again.

 

I did look up akimbo. It means misaligned, not squareg or parallel.  Y, it is for appearence that yars  are squared up. Thus, military captains usually kept yards squared and parallel.

BTW, I question clippers staying in port for long.  The tea market was very competitive and my understanding is that in asian ports in particular they speeded the turnaround.

Ah:

      Yes, you are correct. But, eventually the clipper as it matured left many of the earlier ones in Port. The Yankee Clipper" and It's British Counterparts such as ships like the Scottish named "Cutty Sark" ( This was a traditinal Scottish article of clothing) Were the rulers of the waves and truly DID NOt stay in port very long.

 A lot has been said about Clippers. The truth is many would have failed if not for very astute business practices, and Crew choices.The better a crew was treated the better and faster the ship sailed. You can say all you want BUT, a well trained Crew given a Stout and Well Built ship will perform circles around the other types even if they were Sister ships!

EdGrune

The Texas remained in this paint until the 1988/89 refit after which she exited wearing Measure 21 -- using a commercial equivalent to 5N Navy Blue.

Actually, in 1949, The Battleship Commission decided to keep her painted in Sherwin Williams Garage Gray 27 for every surface, historical or not (but it was cheap paint donated by a local hardware store).  Similarly, in late '49 all the wooden decks were ripped up and concrete installed in its stead.  A hot dog and softdrink stand stodd on the Quarterdeck near the Galley until 1962, in keeping with the deep historical reverence TBC demonstrated over the years.

Removing the props and their shafts remains controversial, but, at the time, was considered a better solution to having leaking stuffing boxes for the shafts.  The rudder was bent in the last docking under USN control, and has been deemed a historical 'artifact' and does not significantly affect towing.

The first parties to actually consider USS Texas as an actual historical artifact were the team from Texas Parks & Wildlife, who took over in 1986, and were the primary driver for the 88-89 drydocking phase.  (Side note, the current "curators," The Battleship Texas Commission have managed to excede the previous drydocking span, with little sign of being anywhere near to on time or on budget.)

TPW put out an extensive RFP to all the major paint and marine finish suppliers for bids to provide the 5N & 20B finishes.  Which had to meet some stringent specs, like being long-lasting in Texas sunshine, and also economical for spendthrift TPW.  There was a very long session where the deck stain was tested to get best appearance on the Texas Cedar the ship was replanked with (a donation from East Texas saw mills).  This took some juggling given the reddish hue of the cedar.

One of the few areas TPW never fully found a solution for was non-skid materials.  Finding an EPA-compliant, inexpensive, material that appeared historically accurate remained and issue all through TPW's time with the ship.

Tanker-Builder

"Cutty Sark" ( This was a traditinal Scottish article of clothing)

Her cutty sark, o' Paisley harn,
That while a lassie she had worn,
In longitude tho' sorely scanty,
It was her best, and she was vauntie.

Apparently it didn't leave much to the imagination!

Bill