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Golden Hind??

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  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Golden Hind??
Posted by Big Jake on Tuesday, November 9, 2004 9:22 PM
J Tilley or any of the group,

Do you know if the Heller Golden Hind is the same mold as the Revell Golden Hind? (which is not even close to the reconstructed ship). I have the Revell one but there a Heller version on Ebay I'm watching. If it's the same I won't bother, but if it's better I will try to get it.

Jake

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, November 9, 2004 10:20 PM
I honestly don't know. Both Revell and Airfix have made Golden Hind kits, and both Airfix and Revell kits have shown up in Heller boxes. I'm pretty sure the Heller version is one or the other of those two, but I don't know which.

I can't recall ever having seen the Airfix version, but it came out at a time when the firm was having financial troubles and producing some pretty weak kits. (The Airfix H.M.S. Bounty came from that period and, as we've discussed in this forum earlier, it's a mess.) The Revell Golden Hind, on the other hand, is (according to my not-always-reliable memory) a beauty - one of the firm's nicest products.

Both Airfix and Revell kits predate that full-sized replica that's shown up in several movies (most notably the TV miniseries "Shogun"). I've only seen it on film and from a distance. (I believe it's currently moored in the Thames near the reconstructed Globe Theater. My family and I went past it on a river cruise some years ago.) As I recall it's not a bad job of reconstruction, but I think the Revell kit is probably just as reliable. (I don't know about the Airfix one.) The Golden Hind is another one of those famous ships about which practically no historical evidence exists. The Revell interpretation, according to my recollection, is pretty consistent with the Matthew Baker Manuscript, the one fairly detailed contemporary treatise on Elizabethan shipbuilding. That's about as good a set of credentials as we can expect.

On a somewhat related subject, this past weekend my students and I took a field trip to Jamestown Settlement and had a look at the three reconstructed "Jamestown ships," the Susan Constant, Godspeed, and Discovery. They were painted in new, rather drab color schemes because they'd recently been involved in the filming of a major new Hollywood movie. It's to be called "The New World," and deals with the founding of Jamestown. One of the stars is Christopher Plummer. The release date, I believe, is to be 2007, to coincide with the 400th anniversary of the original settlers' landing. Should be worth watching. According to the curator who was showing us around, the filmmakers spent a great deal of time and money getting the details right.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Wednesday, November 10, 2004 5:41 AM
JAKE

YES THE HELLER KIT IS THE OLD REVELL MOLDS.IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR MODEL THAT COPIES THE GOLDEN HIND II REMAKE. LOOK FOR THE IMAI KIT ITS A DEAD RINGER FOR THAT SHIP. ALSO ITS A BIGGER SCALE THAN THE REVELL/HELLER KIT.
ROD
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Wednesday, November 10, 2004 6:46 AM
Thanks! I habe the booklet n the making of the Golden Hind, great color photo's and lot of up cloase detail. However the "newer" ship has a head of the "Hind" deer? bot the whole body like the model, any thoughts?

Jake

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, November 10, 2004 7:12 AM
When you get down to details like figureheads you're into the realm of guesswork. Either interpretation seems perfectly reasonable to me. It's also entirely possible that the real ship didn't have a figurehead at all. So far as I know, no actual figureheads from that period survive, and the existing drawings are so stylized and vague that they don't help much.

In doing research on old ships it's vital to be conscious of what the sources are, and to distinguish the primary sources from the secondary ones. (A primary source dates from the time of the vessel; a secondary source dates from some subsequent period.) If I remember correctly (and it's quite possible that I don't), only one primary source regarding the appearance of the Golden Hind has been found: a tiny, highly-stylized sketch on the border of a map. (I may be wrong about this, but I do know the documentation about her is meager.) That full-size replica is some individual researcher's guess about what the real ship looked like; the Revell and Airfix kits are other people's guesses. All three of them are more than thirty years old now. Some good scholarship has taken place since then, and it may be that some good historian of naval architecture could come up with a more reliable reconstruction today. This isn't really my period of specialization, but I can't recall running into any radical "rethinks" of Armada-period warships lately.

The Golden Hind, incidentally, is on the list made by Howard I. Chapelle in his famous article, "The Ship Model That Should Not Be Built." He argued that, since modelers don't have any reliable plans of this vessel, they ought to build something else. There's plenty of room for argument about that point. In any case, I'm inclined to think that nicely-molded Revell kit is about as close as anybody has gotten to a good reconstruciton of the Golden Hind.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Wednesday, November 10, 2004 7:41 AM
Thanks, that looks like to next build up for the collection. I'm just finishing the seats Heller's "Queen Matilda" not bad detail, but I would like to get the other viking kit with the better fiddlehead/scroll work, anybody got an extra you can part with?

I'm also about 25% finished with the painting on the Chebec parts. I will follow Les Wilkins version, looks super. I probally will concentrate next month on that one. I was just commissioned to build a Dumas PT boat for a client, will take about a month, well money talks and my model have to wait.

Jake

 

 

  • Member since
    November 2003
Posted by richter111 on Wednesday, November 10, 2004 12:01 PM
http://www.quuxuum.org/rajens_list/rajen.html#HP

The above is an exhaustive list of model kits and who made them and thier accuracy. Be patient it takes a few minutes to load it really is all encompassing

Hope it helps

Ric
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Belgium
Posted by DanCooper on Wednesday, November 10, 2004 1:40 PM
Sorry to intrude, since I'm not really a ship modeller, but I would just like to point out that the "Golden Hind" was originally a Spanish galleon, so if reproducing one should go for a Spanish ship rather than an English one.
About the figurehead, if the real Golden Hind had one, it would probably have not been a deer, but a woman, since the name of the ship was a female saint or something like that, ofcourse it still possible that the ships' carpenter made a new figurehead.

On the bench : Revell's 1/125 RV Calypso

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, November 11, 2004 8:12 AM
I have also been wondering about this kit. Anyone know about the Aoshima Golden Hind kit? Although the directions are in Japanese it looks like a fun subject matter. It's listed on a few web sales site for around $150.00. Not sure if it's worth the time and money if the Revell kit works.
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Thursday, November 11, 2004 10:26 AM
Aoshima bought a lot of the Imai molds in the last couple of years.They have been selling them on Hobby Links Japan. That is a nice kit based on the Golden Hind II that was build in England a few years ago.I don't know that its worth $150. 00. You can find the Imai kit on EBay alot for under $80.00 I believe its 1/70 or 1/80th scale a lot bigger than the Revell kit.
Rod
  • Member since
    November 2004
  • From: Nashville, TN
Posted by Cudamav on Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:59 AM
The Golden Hind would have had a deer as a figurehead if it had one. The word "hind" is not a female saint, but an Old English word for a female deer.... the male was called a stag. Well...it means a female deer or the rear portion of a four legged animal, but I doubt they would have that as a figurehead.
:)
Jason
~Jason "Not all who wander are lost"
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:06 PM
The sixteenth century isn't a period I've ever studied in much depth, but this forum thread got me interested enough to root through some books to see what they say about it. So far the most authoritative discussion of the Golden Hind that I've found comes from Samuel Eliot Morison's The European Discovery of America, Vol. II: The Southern Voyages. Morison wasn't a sixteenth-century specialist either, but he was one of the greatest of American naval and maritime historians. The book dates from the seventies; there may have been some good, revisionist scholarship since then.

Anyway, Morison says the Golden Hind (original name Pelican) was built in France and bought by some of the investors in Drake's expedition. (Whether that name "Pelican" came from the French or the English he doesn't say.) There's scarcely any contemporary documentation about her. Morison says she had two full-length decks, either sixteen or eighteen guns, a crew of about eighty, and a "tunnage" of about one hundred (i.e., she could carry about a hundred "tuns," or double hogsheads of wine, in her hold). After her voyage around the world, Queen Elizabeth gave orders that the Golden Hind be put on public display in a shed on shore. That never happened, but the dimensions of the proposed shed survived. Morison quotes another researcher, Gregory Robinson, as having figured out, on that basis, that the Golden Hind was about ninety feet long. (Morison cites Robinson's book, which is entitled Elizabethan Ships. I tried to track that one down on the Barnes and Noble used book site. I found a book by that author with the title Elizabethan Ship; the used book dealer describes it as a "children's book." I'm debating whether to order a copy.)

All that information checks reasonably well with the Revell kit. (I suspect the people responsible for it - who clearly knew their business - used the same sources.) The primary source materials on sixteenth-century shipbuilding are pretty meager. There are some fairly detailed contemporary drawings of English ships from that period , the so-called Matthew Baker Manuscripts, in the library at Oxford, and I believe there's at least one Spanish text on shipbuilding with some drawings in it. (I can't recall the details about that one, but one of my students showed me a copy of it some years ago.) I've never heard of a significant French source from that period. That's not to say there are none, but none of the books I happen to have mentions it.

Given the hazy nature of the sources, it looks to me like it would be presumptuous to criticize anybody's reconstruction of the Golden Hind much. The Revell rendition certainly looks like those English drawings at Oxford; maybe a French-built ship wouldn't look like that, but so far as I know there's no firm evidence either way. As for the figurehead - looks to me like a deer or no figurehead at all would be appropriate. Or maybe a pelican. That would sure turn the model into a conversation piece.

Fascinating stuff, but frustrating.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Friday, November 12, 2004 7:34 AM
Man this is great.......serious talk of ships by real ship lovers! I think I'm in heaven :)

Jake

 

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 16, 2004 3:29 AM
Guday Jake,
May I enter my two cents worth?
The Golden Hinde (origanaly Pelican as above) was renamed by Drake after he had hanged a senior member of his crew for, I think, attempted mutiny and to appease the backers of the expedition he renamde the ship. The Hined being the family coat of arms.
There is a society called, phoneticaly, The Hacklewhit (sic) Society and they published a book by Hacklewhit (sic) which containes excelent drawings and written information of the ship.
The actual spelling of the gentlemans name is nothing like the pronunciation but some other forum members may be able to set you on the correct path.
I borrower the book from the local library about thirty years ago and the no longer have it.
Dai
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Belgium
Posted by DanCooper on Tuesday, November 16, 2004 3:36 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Cudamav

The Golden Hind would have had a deer as a figurehead if it had one. The word "hind" is not a female saint, but an Old English word for a female deer.... the male was called a stag. Well...it means a female deer or the rear portion of a four legged animal, but I doubt they would have that as a figurehead.
:)
Jason



I was talking about the orriginal name of the ship, the name it was carrying before Sir Francis Drake captured the ship, but obviously I was wrong anyway.

On the bench : Revell's 1/125 RV Calypso

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, November 16, 2004 10:23 AM
I think the reference in Dai Jones's post may be to the Hakluyt Society. Richard Hakluyt (1552-1616) was an English writer whose pamphlet "A Discourse On Western Planting," published in 1584, usually gets mentioned in American history courses as the first published expression of what came to be known as the mercantile system. For quite a few years he published a magazine, sort of like an Elizabethan version of the National Geographic, that popularized the voyages of the English "Sea Dogs" and the fabulous places they visited. The modern Hakluyt Society was founded in 1846, and publishes all sorts of scholarly works about geography and the history of exploration. (They have a website: <www.hakluyt.com>.)

I'd be a little leery of ship plans published in Hakluyt Society volumes. I'm sure that organization only deals with the best researchers and scholars, but I'm also pretty sure any plans they publish are secondary sources drawn in the nineteenth or twentieth century. They undoubtedly deserve the same respect that other modern reconstructions deserve, but need to be considered in the context of other scholarship.

I think I've got a biography of Drake at home; this forum has made me want to get it down and read it. The story is fascinating, and I've never gotten into it very deeply. I agree with Big Jake: this is a great forum.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 7:54 PM
Yes that is the gents name.
I have copied it down so that I wont forget it again.
Thanks
Dai
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 8:20 PM
My instructors pronounced it "HACK-loit," but "Hacklewhit" may well be closer to being correct. The name looks Dutch, but I believe he was in fact an Englishman.

The Drake biography on my shelf didn't reveal much that we haven't already covered. Last night I ordered a new one from Barnes and Noble. This book is copyright 2004, from the Yale University Press; it appears to be the latest piece of scholarship about Drake. When it gets here I'll see what the author has to say about the ship.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    May 2009
Posted by modelbuilder12 on Monday, June 8, 2009 6:42 PM
If you are looking for another one Hasegawa makes an awesome 20-year old kit.  It comes with 4 PE pieces, decals, and nicely detailed instructions.  I live in Greensboro, NC and came across it at HOBBYTOWN USA.  WORTH IT!  I payed $37 for it.
MODELBUILDER12 "If the wings are traveling faster than the fuselage, it's probably a helicopter -- and therefore, unsafe."-Unknown "Tyrants have always some slight shade of virtue; they support the laws before destroying them." -Voltaire "Aim towards the Enemy." -Instruction printed on US Rocket Launcher
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Monday, June 8, 2009 6:56 PM
 Dai Jones wrote:
Guday Jake,
May I enter my two cents worth?
The Golden Hinde (origanaly Pelican as above) was renamed by Drake after he had hanged a senior member of his crew for, I think, attempted mutiny and to appease the backers of the expedition he renamde the ship. The Hined being the family coat of arms.
There is a society called, phoneticaly, The Hacklewhit (sic) Society and they published a book by Hacklewhit (sic) which containes excelent drawings and written information of the ship.
The actual spelling of the gentlemans name is nothing like the pronunciation but some other forum members may be able to set you on the correct path.
I borrower the book from the local library about thirty years ago and the no longer have it.
Dai
Then again, as Drake was such a favorite of the Queen and vice versa, perhaps he had a set of golden buttocks for a 'figurehead!'  Now that's a 'Golden Hind' that would raise some eyebrows!
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Monday, June 8, 2009 8:54 PM
Gee, this post came from out of the depths.

 

 

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