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Verlinen USS Monitor and CSS Virgina Kits

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  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: Toledo, OH
Verlinen USS Monitor and CSS Virgina Kits
Posted by chazsmith on Sunday, November 21, 2004 5:32 AM
Guys:

HI! Smile [:)] I usually build armour kits but have always had a passion for building these 2 subjects and finally found both of them in the same scale from Verlinden. I bought each one as soon as they were available but now that I'm building them for a diorama I'm planning on the battle of Hampton Roads, I'm noticing that the Monitor looks almost as big as the Virginia -are these kits both really 1/200th scale? I have books/references but reading them gives me the impression that the Virginia was a much bigger vessel. Can anyone set me straight?
Also, I read the forum topic on the Ironclad colors, sounds like the Monitor should be black but what about the Virgina. Can't tell much from the books I have except that the roof of the montior looks wooden. I've completed the build on the Monitor (only primed it) but haven't started the Virginia yet - has a nasty warp in the hull I'm having trouble with.
Any and all help with this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Charlie
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Sunday, November 21, 2004 8:09 AM
Monitor appears smaller in paintings and drawings simply because her focal point is her turret...Virginia on the other hand is mostly casemate, so yes, they were close in size when you consider length and beam.

As for the warped hull, find yourself a cooking pot beig enough to hold the hull...boil some water, and drop the hull in...let it get nice and hot. Remove it, with a pair of tongs or something so you don't burn yourself, and place it on a level surface, like a cutting board. I typically will weight the hull down with something to level the hull out. As it cools, it will remain in the last position it was in...if it still has a bow, repeat the process. Sometimes I'll actually put a shim under the center of the hull, if the warp is convex, and slightly overweight it to make it concave...this usually will counter any tendancy for the hull to revert back to its original shape (and warpage).

As for the colors, there's been speculation, ranging from iron black to bloackade runner gray. A dark gray, such as a Panzer gray, would not get the color police hunting you down.

Jeff
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, November 21, 2004 8:57 AM
I haven't seen the kits, but I just looked up the Monitor and Virginia in a couple of generally reliable reference works: the Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships and Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships, 1860-1905. They agree in giving the Monitor an overall length of 172' and the Virginia an overall length of 275'. So in 1/200 scale the Monitor shoud be about ten and five-sixteenths inches long and the Virginia sixteen and a half inches.

Sounds like chazsmith has read what I posted earlier about the Monitor. I've never done much research on the Virginia. When I was at the Mariners' Museum we did do a temporary exhibition of artifacts from the U.S.S. Monitor, C.S.S. Virginia, U.S.S. Cumberland, and C.S.S. Florida (the latter two are at the bottom of Hampton Roads, a few miles from the museum), and I had occasion to look at the generally-available primary and secondary sources.

Please bear in mind that all this is based on memories that are now about 24 years old, rattling around in a Halfzeimer's-afflicted 54-year-old brain. My recollection, though, is that there's one set of contemporary plans for the Virginia (as opposed to the official Navy drawings of the U.S.S. Merrimack). At the time when I was reading up on the subject, those drawings were locked up in an office safe owned by a guy in Norfolk who was trying to sell them to the museum for an exorbitant amount of money (which the museum didn't have, so for all I know they may still be in said safe). But photocopies of them had been made from time to time and published in several sources, which Verlinden probably consulted. The drawings, as I remember, were huge but extremely sketchy, showing only the general outline of the casemate and the outboard profile of the hull.

As I understand it, nobody has ever found a photograph of the Virginia. (There are, of course, a couple of vintage photos of the Monitor - plus the thousands of shots of the wreck off Cape Hatteras.) A few Virginia relics have been passed down by various routes; as I remember the Mariners' Museum has a steering wheel and a couple of pieces of iron plating. I seem to recall that the Museum of the Confederacy has one or two other pieces of her.

The Virginia was burned to prevent capture by the Federals. At various times archaeologists and enthusiasts have looked for her remains, but to my knowledge they haven't found anything beyond what's in those museums (and, supposedly, a few tidbits that are in the hands of secretive private collectors around the Hampton Roads area). Part of the problem is that the site where she met her end lies on the grounds of the Craney Island Naval Weapons Depot, which is a secure naval station. I seem to recall that Clive Cussler, the novelist, got permission from the Navy to do some looking, but didn't find anything. There's an excellent chance that any surviving artifacts got dug up by accident and junked when the base was being built.

We're fairly confident that the Monitor was black above the waterline and red below. I've never dug into the question of the Virginia's color scheme, but I think Jeff has it right. In most of the contemporary and near-contemporary paintings and lithographs of the battle she seems to be black, but those pictures are pretty unreliable. (When they're compared to the existing plans it's pretty clear that most of the artists had never seen the ship.) We do know that other ironclads - on both sides - were painted grey. I suspect there's one other good possibility: that the Virginia's casemate plating wasn't painted at all. Given the circumstances under which she was "built," that wouldn't surprise me.

Next semester the students in my museum studies practicum at ECU are going to be working on a project involving the Confederate ironclad ram Neuse, whose remains lie in Kinston, about 25 miles from where I live. (The state of NC is setting up a new exhibition building for her, to replace the one that got severely whomped by Hurricane Floyd a few years back.) I hope to find out some interesting stuff about Confederate ironclads in the course of that project. Until then, this is about all I have to offer. Hope it's of a little interest. Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, November 21, 2004 9:36 AM
I just discovered that the Virginia has a website (quite a trick for a ship that was destroyed more than a century ago): <www.cssvirginia.org>. It contains all sorts of fascinating stuff, including a good assortment of pictures. I'm pleased to note that the experts pretty much confirm what I said in my post of a few minutes ago - and expand on that material a great deal. Looks to me like this site contains just about everything that's known about the ship.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: Toledo, OH
Posted by chazsmith on Sunday, November 21, 2004 10:00 AM
Guys:
Thanks so much for all the information on both vessels. I need to check out the website too - this should be an interesting prorect. Once done with the models, I'll need to do a base for them. So far I've got a picture of the 2 going at it at Hampton Roads to follow. I started with a custom picture frame for the sides and 2 thick pieces of plastic for the base. The railroad guys in my local Hobbytown have suggested some products for the water. All in all, I'm really looking forward to this. Don't know if it will come out good enough to display anywhere - this is my first ship build but I'll be happy to finally have some nice models of them. Judging from how long it takes me to build an armour kit - it should take me a month or two to complete but I will post some pictures for you guys if I can find a digital camera.

Thanks again

Charlie
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, November 25, 2004 1:42 AM
I'm adding a "reply" to get the thread moved near the top of the list. A recent query from a newcomer relates to it.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: Toledo, OH
Posted by chazsmith on Thursday, November 25, 2004 5:07 PM
Guys:

Hi! Checked out the website - really great! I could have spent all day up there! I do have one last question - is there anyplace I can get the railings for the top of the Virgina? I'm not very good at scratch building so something that I could possibly modify would be great. Then again, there's probably not much out there in 1/200th scale.
I've started painting the monitor using a combination of Humbrol paints - Iron, panzer gray and gun metal drybrushed over a flat black primer. I then highlighted all the bolts with gun metal to make them stand out alittle. I figure it will darken up once I put the wash on it.

Thanks and have a great Holiday!

Charlie
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, November 27, 2004 12:30 AM
Tom's Modelworks (<www.tomsmodelworks.com>) has a couple of photo-etched brass 1/200 detail sets that probably would work. One contains preformed, two-bar railings; the other consists of several hundred railing stanchions with pre-drilled holes, so you can make the railings themselves out of wire. The latter set probably would work best, since you could set the stanchions at any spacing. The price, $25.00, seems pretty steep, considering that you'd probably use only a tiny fraction of the contents of either sheet. But you'd have plenty left over to inspire other projects.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: Toledo, OH
Posted by chazsmith on Monday, November 29, 2004 6:46 PM
John:

Hi! thanks for all your help with the project. I'll check out Tom's model works for the railings. Everything is done except them on both kits but I won't put the water on the base until I get the railings on the Viginia. They don't look bad but I probably won't be taking them to any model contests due to the inaccuracies of the monitor. The pilot house isn't correct nor is the stacks but I'm doing this just for me so I'll live with it.

Thanks again

Charlie
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 2:33 PM
Glad to be of some help. I think, though, that maybe you're being a little hard on Verlinden.

During the battle with the Virginia, as you probably know, the Monitor took a hit from a shell that exploded on the plating of the pilothouse, blinding the commanding officer and damaging the structure. I don't have the Verlinden kit, but on the basis of a photo of it that I found on the web it looks to me like the company accurately reproduced the modified pilothouse that was installed after the battle. If I remember correctly, at least one of the photos of the Monitor, which were taken during the summer of 1862, shows the sloping sides of it.

The iron boxes protruding from the afterdeck were temporary, removable "ducts" over the exhaust and intake openings. In the Verlinden photo I looked at, the boxes were attached to the forward openings but not the after ones. That's certainly believable. I'm not aware of any firmly-established details of those parts, but I suspect their dimensions might well have changed once or twice. (I seem to remember that one pair was taller than the other on the plans I used for the paper model I designed, but I may be wrong about that.) In any case, all for boxes were removed when the ship was about to go into action, so they wouldn't interfere with the guns. If the boxes aren't cast integrally with the hull, you could simply leave them off; if they are cast integrally, it probably wouldn't be too hard to cut them off.

For her rudely interrupted trip down the coast from Hampton Roads to Cape Hatteras, as I recall, the Monitor was fitted with a tall, inverted-Y-shaped "stack" mechanism that was supposed to make her safer in heavy seas. It seems it didn't work.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: Toledo, OH
Posted by chazsmith on Wednesday, December 1, 2004 6:25 PM
John:

Hi! Thanks for the follow-up. I only mentioned those pieces because the diorama I'm doing has the Monitor and Virginia together in the first battle. The picture I have of the battle doesn't show the Monitor with the pilot house and the stacks that way. From what I find out, they never met in combat again so it's all I have to go by. I could trim off the pilot house's protection but I'm not that good at doing things like that and to be honest, I like the way it looks. The stacks are molded onto the Monitor's deck - again a more skilled modeler could remove them and fix the deck plate. I'm just glad that someone finally came out with both ot them in a scale that allows me to do the diorama I've always wanted to do.

Thanks

CharlieSmile [:)]
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, December 1, 2004 10:40 PM
Charlie -

Your logic of course is completely correct: during the battle with the Virginia the Monitor had the original, block-like pilothouse, and the "boxes" wouldn't have been in use. Seems a little odd that Verlinden molded the latter in with the hull. Surely it wouldn't have cost much extra to provide alternative pilothouse parts and make the boxes optional.

I haven't bought any of the Verlinden Civil War kits - which are getting pretty numerous. I notice they've released a second Confederate ironclad. If they ever get around to the C.S.S. Neuse, whose remains (such as they are) are about 25 miles from my house, I'll be hooked.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: Toledo, OH
Posted by chazsmith on Sunday, December 5, 2004 9:50 PM
John:

Hi! I was thinking of picking up that new one too only putting it on it's own base. I'm a little worred that it will be warped like the Virgina hull was. I tried putting it in hot water and weighing it down but it only moved alittle. I was afraid to put it in the mircorwave, with my luck I would have melted it. I have it completed now except for the railings - still waiting for those to come into my local Hobbytown.

Good luck with finding the one you want - I wish I had somewhere to go see the remains of an Ironclad - we have old aircraft in the musems around here in Northwest Ohio. We don't live too far from a War 1812 fort called Fort Meigs which is kind of cool also.

Talk to Ya

Charlie
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, December 6, 2004 12:36 AM
Charlie -

I know what you mean. I spent the first thirty years of my life in Columbus, which at that time seemed like about the most boring place on the face of the earth. Now I know better. Believe me, I'd gladly give up my proximity to the Ram Neuse (and, for that matter, the battleship North Carolina, which is two and a half hours from here) if I could drive to the USAF Museum in Dayton on a weekend. To me, that place puts the state of Ohio on the map.

I don't have enough experience with resin to comment on your warpage problem. Verlinden has a good reputation, though; I suspect if you mailed the offending piece to the manufacturer you'd get a new one pretty quick.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Belgium
Posted by DanCooper on Monday, December 6, 2004 5:36 AM
About the color of CSS Verginia again ; I saw the movie Monitor vs Merrimack and in the movie the Monitor was black, while the Verginia was some kind of Panzergrau, I know that the moviemakers aren't always right (most of the time they're not), but she looked really good in that color.
I've only seen a (scratchbuild) model of the Verginia once, years ago on InterModellbau in Dortmund, Germany.
That model too was finished in a light grey.
If I were you, I would go for that color.

On the bench : Revell's 1/125 RV Calypso

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, December 6, 2004 8:34 AM
Charlie -

I haven't seen the movie, but I suspect the people who made it were guessing just like the rest of us.

The museum where I used to work had a good model of the Virginia that had been made in the museum's old model shop, back in the thirties. It's painted black, with a red bottom. My suggestion is to go with whichever of the believable schemes we've discussed looks best to you. I don't think anybody will be able to prove you wrong.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: Toledo, OH
Posted by chazsmith on Tuesday, December 7, 2004 6:22 PM
Hi! Thanks for all the feedback and information. I'm still cooling my jets waiting for the railings to come into my local hobbytown

Charlie
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