SEARCH FINESCALE.COM

Enter keywords or a search phrase below:

which ship was better??

6533 views
86 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Pacific Northwest
Posted by MBT70 on Tuesday, May 3, 2005 9:18 AM
Nice link, Jeff. Some of those kits got me drooling like a puppy ....

BTW - Here's that Johnston story I wrote if anyone is interested. You might want to cut and paste it into a Word file to read it easier.

Native American Medal of Honor Heroes

Cherokee warrior saves the fleet
By Bob Rosenburgh
The chronicles of war throughout history are filled with the exploits of heroes who risked it all for the cause. From those ranks of great warriors only a select few have not only played a key part in winning the battle, but also saved most of their comrades in arms from annihilation. One such great man was Cdr. Ernest Edwin Evans, a Cherokee Indian from Pawnee, Oklahoma, who commanded a destroyer named the U.S.S. Johnston in the battle off Samar Island on Oct. 25, 1944.
Evans was commissioned from the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis, Md. in 1931 and during his early career served aboard a variety of ships, including the battleship Colorado and the cruiser Pensacola. When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor in December of 1941, he was serving on the destroyer U.S.S. Alden and was made its commander in March of 1942.
Evans did well as Skipper, earning battle stars and respect with his crew, so he was rewarded with command of a brand-new destroyer fitting out at the Seattle-Tacoma Shipbuilding Corporation on Washington’s Puget Sound. The U.S.S. Johnston was a sleek, Fletcher-Class ship displacing 2,100 tons. Armed with a main battery of five 5-inch radar-controlled guns and ten 21-inch torpedo tubes, the 376-foot-long ship also had six 40 mm and 11 20-mm anti-aircraft guns and a suite of depth charges.
The day he took command when the Johnston was commissioned, Evan’s told his new crew, “This is going to be a fighting ship. I intend to go in harm’s way and anyone who doesn’t want to go along better get off now!” History bears out the truth in his words.
The Johnston wasted no time joining the fray and earned battle stars for the Marshall Islands campaign, where she bombarded the beaches and fought kamikaze planes in the invasions of Kwajelien and Eniwetok, then provided fire support to troops fighting in the Solomons. Under Evans’ steady hand, she went up a river at Bougainville to take her guns closer to troops needing her firepower. The Johnston also sent the Japanese submarine I-16 to the bottom off Bougainville. She wrapped up the Marshall campaign by joining the battleship Pennsylvania in bombardment of Guam, throwing more than 4,000 5-inch projectiles down the enemy’s throat.
Then came the Battle of Leyte Gulf, a key element in the drive for liberation of the Philippines. Johnston and two other destroyers were assigned to protect convoys and small escort carriers tasked with invasion and capture of the Palau islands.
It was only three days short of a year that the Johnston was commissioned and Evans took command that they found themselves suddenly thrust into an impossible fight.
Following two major engagements in Surigao Straight and Leyte Gulf, Admiral James Halsey turned the bulk of his battle group to the north, presumably to intercept the main body of the Japanese battleship and carrier force heading for the Philippines.
That left three destroyers and four destroyer escorts, code named “Taffy III,” protecting the Leyte invasion force packed on lightly-armed transports and backed by auxiliary support vessels and just six “baby flattop” escort carriers with very small numbers of planes.
On the morning of October 24, as they sat East of Samar Island off San Bernardino Strait, a patrol plane frantically reported four battleships, seven cruisers and at least nine destroyers coming down the strait and right for the invasion fleet. And one of the battleships was Yamato, the largest dreadnaught ever built and mounting nine monstrous 18” guns.
The nearest help was 30 to 80 miles away and the American heavies, Admiral Halsey’s battle group, was far to the north chasing a diversionary force. The huge Japanese task force had only the seven small warships of Taffy III to keep them from wiping out the American fleet. But Taffy III was in the command of a Cherokee Indian warrior, Cdr. Evans aboard the Johnston.
Within ten seconds of the pilot’s report, Evan’s was on the bridge and in charge, even grinning as crewmembers later testified.
“All hands to general quarters,” he bellowed into the intercom as his jet-black hair waved in the night breeze. “Prepare to attack major portion of the Japanese fleet!” He ordered full speed, smokescreen and told the crew to stand by for torpedo attack. “Left full rudder,” and they were off.
Within a minute, the sleek destroyer was fast underway and made a long zigzag smoke screen to block the enemy’s guns and give the fleet a chance to withdraw. The other ships in Taffy III followed suit and also took their lead from Evans when Johnston opened fire at maximum range. Pressing in closer, they launched a spread of torpedoes in a wild hope of scoring hits, but more so to force the enemy to maneuver and lose speed.
As Taffy III closed on the enemy fleet, the bigger ships were out of their range and they could only engage the destroyer screen, but the big guns of the battleships and cruisers were already reaching out to find the Americans. Colored splashes marked with dye enabled the Japanese gunners to tell where each ship’s gunfire was landing, but around the destroyers the variegated columns of water created a surreal scene of beauty and death. Slowly the enemy got the range and Taffy started feeling the power of the enemy’s cannons.
By then, the escort carriers had their meager flight of aircraft in the air and the American pilots joined the lopsided battle, scoring bomb and machinegun hits, but failing to deter the Japanese force. All through the battle the Johnston, nicknamed “GQ Johnny” because they were at general quarters so often, was out in front and nearest the enemy, leading the pack to sure destruction and glory. It was a desperate gamble, but they were ready to sacrifice themselves to save the tens of thousands of troops in the invasion fleet.
Despite their massive preponderance of firepower – one salvo from Yamato was 18,000 pounds against a 275-pound broadside from Johnston – the enemy gunners were lousy shots. What hits they scored were by sheer saturation of shells and the destroyers in Taffy III were able to penetrate much closer to the heavy units behind the destroyer screen.
But the little ships were starting to feel their wounds and Evans knew they couldn’t keep it up much longer. The Johnston was losing engine power, communications were gone and guns were fighting independently, using optics for targeting.
In one last, desperate attempt to delay the Japanese, he ordered a final torpedo attack on a 12,000-ton cruiser. As Johnston bore in for the strike, no less than four cruisers concentrated their fire on the valiant little destroyer who still managed to get off over 200 more shots and return the punishment in kind.
“Fire torpedoes,” screamed Evans and ten deadly fish streaked off to meet the big cruiser. Heeling about, Evans ordered up more smoke and laid a screen to mask the other destroyers as Johnston pulled away. Behind them, torpedoes found their mark deep in the bowels of the cruiser, plus a bonus hit when one that missed continued on to damage a battleship to the rear. When Johnston broke through the smokescreen and looked back, they saw the cruiser engulfed in flames. It later sank.
But time had run out for the Johnston. Three 14-inch shells from a battleship found their mark, followed by a set of 6-inchers from another cruiser. The little ship lost one engine and most of its power … and still the hits came.
Evans stood on the deck surveying his ship, ripped into scrap and dead crewman everywhere. With no helmet and bare-chested, he continued to issue orders, refusing medical help despite his head wounds, several fingers shot away and shrapnel wounds on his face and neck.
“Don’t bother me now,” he told the doctor, “Help those men who are really hurt.” A quick survey of the ship told him the main batteries could still fire manually, and the ship could be steered by hand, so he rejoined the battle. Just then, a quick rainstorm came up and the Johnston was able to limp into it for cover, sending another 100 rounds into a cruiser and the enemy’s lead destroyer as they did so.
The rest of Taffy III was still fairly intact, although they took their share of hits, too. But, when the American admiral ordered another torpedo attack, they rushed in without hesitation.
The Johnston had done its part and was out of torpedoes … they could have limped away and still be covered with honor for their gallant actions … but Evans wasn’t through with the Japanese yet.
“We’ll go in with the destroyers and provide fire support,” he boomed at his remaining crewmen and they yelled “Aye, aye, Sir,” and turned to the task at hand. Stoking the boilers to their maximum capacity so the one engine could do it’s best, Johnston was able to move in and cover the torpedo attack and scored another ten hits on a big cruiser. Taffy III delivered their torpedoes and turned away and it looked like the Johnston might just have pulled it off too. But when they broke out of the smoke screen again, the USS Heerman was headed straight for them and only frantic maneuvering avoided a collision. The two ships passed within ten feet.
Getting back underway, the Johnston’s crew peered through the smoke and rain for targets and only fired when they were sure it was an enemy ship in their sights. Then, out of the gloom and only 7,000 yards off … spitting range at sea … came the unmistakable pagoda-bridge of a Kongo-class battleship. Johnston’s gunners slammed abut forty rounds into the ship before darting back into the smokescreen and the battleship, slow to respond, missed them completely with the few rounds they got off.
The Johnston was soon in a position between the enemy destroyer and cruiser force when Evans saw that a very large cruiser was busy trying to sink the escort carrier Gambier Bay.
Turning to his gunnery officer, Lt. Robert C. Hagen, Evans ordered, “Commence firing on that cruiser, Hagen. Draw her fire on us and away from the Gambier Bay.”
In an unbelievable David-and-Goliath duel, the battered little tin can turned into the cruiser and came within 6,000 yards, firing their modest guns all the way in. But the cruisers commander, who could have sunk the destroyer with his secondary batteries and still sink the carrier, ignored the Johnston and allowed it to slip away without a single hit.
It was a fatal error for the Japanese, because Evans then saw the Japanese moving in for a torpedo attack on the fleet. So the relentless Cdr. Evans turned his tiny, but mighty ship against the Japanese destroyers.
Nearly all of Taffy III was now in flames … the Johnston stood alone.
Despite being outnumbered, running on one engine and severely damaged, Johnston engaged and scored twelve hits on the lead ship, which fled the scene in retreat. They scored five hits on the next one and then, before the other six could close in for the kill, the entire Japanese destroyer force turned around and ran off in retreat.
“Now I’ve seen everything,” Evans shouted in absolute glee.
The celebration was short-lived, though, because the rest of the Japanese ships were warming up their guns on the carriers. Gambier Bay was lost, burning and sinking, and the enemy was after the other ships, so battered and bleeding, Evans went back to work. Only the Johnston and Heerman were left to carry the fight to the enemy. Eventually, the bridge was so battered that Evans had to shift his command to the fantail where he shouted steering orders to the crews below. Round after round went out to smash at the enemy, but even more came back to savage the Johnston. Soon, she was dead in the water and the Japanese cruisers took their aim and battered the stricken ship at their leisure.
With no way left to fight, Evans finally gave the order to abandon ship. The surviving crew scrambled over the sides and into life rafts and, at 1010 hours, she rolled over and began to sink. A Japanese destroyer pulled alongside and put one more shot into her to make sure. Crewmen in the water reported that the enemy captain saluted as the Johnston slid under the waves.
Johnston was gone, but by then the Japanese had enough and retreated in disarray, turning their crippled ships back up San Bernardino Strait and running for safety. The little ships of Taffy III and a handful of aircraft had beaten a major Japanese battle group and saved the Leyte invasion fleet from annihilation!
But the Johnston and her crew paid a severe price for their gallantry.
When the Johnston first turned into the enemy fleet to engage it in battle, 327 men were at their battle stations on board the gallant destroyer. About 50 of them died in the ensuing battle, but another 45 died of their wounds floating in rafts for two days after the battle before they were rescued. Another 92, including Evans, were alive in the water when Johnston went down, but were never seen again.
The ship, its crew and the rest of Taffy III were subsequently awarded a Presidential Unit Citation for their roles in the Battle Off Samar Island. Evans earned a posthumous award of the Congressional Medal of Honor. The Cherokee warrior had come a long way from Pawnee, Oklahoma
Life is tough. Then you die.
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Monday, May 2, 2005 3:32 PM
Yankee Modelworks does a superb model of the Johnston in resin.

www.yankeemodelworks.com

Jeff
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Pacific Northwest
Posted by MBT70 on Monday, May 2, 2005 1:46 PM
You mentioned Taffy 3 ... I once wrote a story about Cdr. Ernest Evans who captained the USS Johnston and earned the MOH. He was a Cherokee Indian and pretty much spearheaded the destroyer screen that turned back the van of Japanese fleet. To me, the Battle Off Samar is one of the great moments in Naval history. BTW - Anyone know of a model of the Johnston?
Life is tough. Then you die.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 29, 2005 11:36 PM
No problem MBT70!

I think its tough to do all this comparing. The U.S. possessed such advanced targeting gear by 1944-45 (for that time) that I think they would have won most engagements, regardless of firepower, armor, displacement, etc., granted if the numbers were about the same. Just look a Suragio Straight. Even the Pearl Harbor vets licked the Japanese fleet good. They just used radar (plus a gauntlet of PT boats and destroyers, and a screening line of cruisers). Or the Battle off Samar. The Japanese fleet outclassed Taffy 3 in EVERY WAY possible (cept air), but if you can't aim, then what's the point. Using colored died in your salvos was a WWI trick. The ratio of hits to the number of shots fired in that battle was pretty bad I believe. I know Jeff can add more to that. (I recommend the book Last Stand of the TIn Can Sailors).

I think comparisons need to be done item by item, like the comparison site from this thread did. Main gun vs main gun, etc. We would all love to think that America has always produced the best weapons (I know I would) but sometimes we were simply outclassed or in this case, out gunned.
  • Member since
    June 2004
  • From: 29° 58' N 95° 21' W
Posted by seasick on Friday, April 29, 2005 11:16 PM
The Montana would have blown the Yamato to pieces because of several factors.
1 The Yamato most likely would have been forced to fight the Montana at night when the Montana would have all the advantages (assuming its 1944 or 1945).
The Montana would have the range on the Yamato very quickly and would be showering it with AP shells.

2 The Montana's broadside would throw much more weight against the Yamato than the Yamato could fire back.. The 16inch/50 guns and the 2700 lbs AP shell would be able to penetrate the Yamato's armor.

Chasing the ultimate build.

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Pacific Northwest
Posted by MBT70 on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 5:29 PM
Marin,
great link ... thanks.
Life is tough. Then you die.
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 2:52 PM
Which was why they were cancelled. The Navy wised up and realized that the age of the battleship had come and gone, and that the age of the carrier was upon them.

There have been some talk amongst naval historians that the hull form for the Midway Class carriers was actually based on the Montana. Without looking at images of the two, I can't lend anything to that arguement, but time-wise, it would make sense. Obviously, battleships are laid out differently than carriers, so I'm sure internal compartmentalization would be different. Something that bears to mind though was that the Midway class had superb compartmentalization and improved damage control within the those spaces. The Montanas were envisioned to have superior allocation of spaces and armor. Maybe there's a common thread we don't know about...hard to say what was being drawn up on napkins by Navy designers in 1941-42.

Jeff
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 2:29 PM
Thanks for the help. I found this link with the 1940-41 proposed design.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/usnshtp/bb/bb67.htm

You're right, it is just an Iowa with one more turret. The bridge almost looks more like the NC than an Iowa, but I am by no means an expert on this subject. But it seems a waste to make a better Iowa, and increasing her armament only by 3 -16". I would have thought more twin 5", or maybe even a secondary suite of 6" or 8". But I suppose they had their reasons. Thanks again for all the help!
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Pacific Northwest
Posted by MBT70 on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 12:49 PM
Right now I'm kitbashing a 1/350 New Jersey (modernized) into the Montana. Like Jeff says, a lot of it is speculation and I did stretch the hull as he describes. The best we have to go by are builders models and a well-know artist concept and, in that venue, the Montana had a lower superstructure by one deck, most likely to reduce topweight in the larger ship. Again, Jeff is on the mark about armaments ... all Iowa-class systems with the addition of one more main batterey turret astern. The hull form is very similar to the Iowas, especially at the bows, but may have had different hydrodynamic lines to meet the differing physics.

And I gotta say ... Jeff has an impressive command of the facts. What a wealth of info for us mere aficionados.
Life is tough. Then you die.
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 10:11 AM
Marin,

The hull form was different, but I'm told you can come quite close by grafting two Iowa hulls together. Since no plans for the Montana's exist (detailed builder's plans with hull lines), the true shape of the hull is purely speculation.

The turrets would be most likely be identical to Iowa, although with an added turret astern. All of the other fittings, 5"/38 DP mounts, 40mm Bofors, and 20mm Oerlikons would have been the same. She probably wouldn't have carried Kingfishers, since SC-1 Seahawks came online before she was scheduled to be completed. She would have most likely carried SK-2 radar (the round dish type), along with MK 33 Fire Control Directors. She would have carried the standard MK 37 Fire Control directors for the 5" guns, and MK 52s in individual tubs for the 40mm mounts.

Superstructure, although similar in appearance to Iowa would be different, both in shape and size of structure.

Hope that answers your questions.

Jeff
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 12:43 AM
Sorry, I just had a quick question... was the Montana-class supposed to be a Super-Iowa battleship, as I assume they were. Just bigger? Or were their also design advacements? So in other words, would a scratch-Montana be easily made from an Iowa model?
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Saturday, April 23, 2005 10:04 PM
Actually, Surigao Strait was considered the last battle, in fact, it's where most of the Pearl Harbor battleline got their revenge.

Truth of the matter is, is that until a defensive system that was capable of knocking out an aerial target at extreme range was developed (aka the anti-aircraft missile), ships remained vulnerable. When you consider that the CIWS system was developed to knock down incoming anti-ship missiles, it's ironic how we've come full circle in AA systems.

Jeff
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Pacific Northwest
Posted by MBT70 on Saturday, April 23, 2005 11:23 AM
Roger that, Jeff. Whether the treaties limiting battleship size and power had been signed or not, the advent of airpower would still have rendered the battleships obsolete sooner or later. The Wash./So. Dak. vs Kirishima engagement is an interesting historical anomaly in that it was radar targeting that won the day. Kirishima was hammering So. Dakota, who suffered malfunctions early on and couldn't return fire properly, but Washington spotted the Japanese ship on radar and slammed it from out of sight. The burning and doomed Kirishima was sunk in flames next morning. I believe this was the last duel of dreadnaughts, was it not?
Life is tough. Then you die.
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Friday, April 22, 2005 4:34 PM
MBT, I was the guy who reviewed the story and recommended it for publication, so yes, I've read it and I'm quite familiar with it.

The age of the battleship was effectively over at the cessation of hostilities in 1918. That much, in hindsight, we now know. This is because the world was at peace (relatively) until the late 1930s.

There were several advocates of naval based airpower in all countries during this time, but those in charge were still of the 'Big Gun' era, and refused to acknowledge that aircraft could sink capital ships. Mitchell proved this theory, the British cemented it with the Taranto Raid, and the success of the FAA against the Italian Fleet was the impetus of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, because it proved it could be done.

After the loss of Bismarck and Hood in 1941, there were only THREE battleship engagements fought during the rest of the war...the Massachusetts vs. Jean Bart, Washington and SoDak versus Kirishima, and the Battle at Surigao Strait.

Jeff
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted by T_Terrific on Friday, April 22, 2005 3:19 PM
I am not Jeff, but as I see it, just bigger targets for submarines, torpedo and dive-bombers.

The Bismark was put out of action by an obsolete British biplane torpedo bomber, known as the Fairey "Stringbag".

The Yamato was stopped by the Grumman TBF "Turkey's" that were abandoned as soon as the Douglas A-1's were available.

It was obvious by 1942 that carrier groups, not the Byzantine bunker-mentality gun-barges that were called battleships, ruled the oceans.

Tom Cowboy [C):-)]

Tom TCowboy

“Failure is the opportunity to begin again more intelligently.”-Henry Ford

"Except in the fundamentals, think and let think"- J. Wesley

"I am impatient with stupidity, my people have learned to live without it"-Klaatu: "The Day the Earth Stood Still"

"All my men believe in God, they are ordered to"-Adolph Hitler

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Pacific Northwest
Posted by MBT70 on Friday, April 22, 2005 3:01 PM
I'll debate, Jeff ... in fact, as an FSM staffer you may be aware of the upcoming article on the Maximum Battleship kitbash. The post WW-I US fleet was originally structured to fight the English, soley on the basis of their Naval supremacy, so a dreadnaught arms-race began which quickly grew into keels for very massive battleships. Had that series of ships been launched instead of scrapped in the wake of the treaties, follow-on hulls would have grown even larger yet. Every major power had super-ships on the drawing boards and the USA projected as big as 100,000 tons with 10 20-inch guns ... on paper. Your thoughts?
Life is tough. Then you die.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 12:17 AM
This is such a loaded question, there is no one right or wrong answer to this question. Each ship was built for a specific purpose. The Bismark as designed for raiding while the Yamato was built for the big gun battle with the USN that never happened. I would very much like to say one way or the other which one was better, but due to their very short and undistinguesed careers I can not truely get an honest answer to this question
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted by T_Terrific on Thursday, April 14, 2005 12:06 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by scottrc

Admiral Yamamoto was an advid poker player, liked Cuban cigars, and good Burbon. If he had any secrets while in college, I'm sure a few drunk frat buddies heard them. Then again, maybe he had a few frat buddies who were would be battleship designers?

Thats it? By golly! Both the Yamato and the Iowa were designed during a late night poker game. Yamato is drunken slurred for Yamamoto and one of the frat boys was from Iowa. Man, I should write for the History Channel.

Mary Ann and Ginger still look good for their age, although Ginger was conceived the same year the Yamato was and Mary Ann was concieved the year as the Iowa. Maybe their mothers were at the same frat party?

USS Alaska? That may be a cold subject. Then again, Alaska is melting due to global warming.

Have a nice weekend. AMPS sounds much more fun then installing new storm doors on my house.

Scott




Sounds like you're the one into the Burbon, Scott, but with the quality of the typical history texts we have today in public schools, I sure we could have worse writers Big Smile [:D]

Tom Cowboy [C):-)]

Tom TCowboy

“Failure is the opportunity to begin again more intelligently.”-Henry Ford

"Except in the fundamentals, think and let think"- J. Wesley

"I am impatient with stupidity, my people have learned to live without it"-Klaatu: "The Day the Earth Stood Still"

"All my men believe in God, they are ordered to"-Adolph Hitler

  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Thursday, April 14, 2005 11:57 AM
Admiral Yamamoto was an advid poker player, liked Cuban cigars, and good Burbon. If he had any secrets while in college, I'm sure a few drunk frat buddies heard them. Then again, maybe he had a few frat buddies who were would be battleship designers?

Thats it? By golly! Both the Yamato and the Iowa were designed during a late night poker game. Yamato is drunken slurred for Yamamoto and one of the frat boys was from Iowa. Man, I should write for the History Channel.

Mary Ann and Ginger still look good for their age, although Ginger was conceived the same year the Yamato was and Mary Ann was concieved the year as the Iowa. Maybe their mothers were at the same frat party?

USS Alaska? That may be a cold subject. Then again, Alaska is melting due to global warming.

Have a nice weekend. AMPS sounds much more fun then installing new storm doors on my house.

Scott

QUOTE: Originally posted by T_Terrific

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jeff Herne

USS Alaska, and BOTH Ginger and Marianne.

I'm off to AMPS for the next four days, take care everyone.

Jeff


Jeff:

Are you saying both of these men (provided they are not "poker buddies")willl emphatically aand independently "go on the record" say that the Japanese had NO WAY of knowing ANYTHING about either the design OR construction of the Iowa class ships, and contact me (a tiney little grasshopper in a world of wizards) personally with their response?

If so I will gladly provide you with my contact info!

Tom Cowboy [C):-)]

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted by T_Terrific on Thursday, April 14, 2005 11:11 AM
Cool,

but as a favor, I seek the honest, objective question:

"Do you know, due to the responsibilities of your position in the effort, for a fact no Japanese spies were aware either the design or construction of the Iowa class ships?"
And I would appreciate knowing the level of responsibility they had also.

For your inbformation, I am a retired Responsible Nuclear Power Engineer for both PWR's and BWR's.

Many thanks JeffSmile [:)]

TomCowboy [C):-)]

Tom TCowboy

“Failure is the opportunity to begin again more intelligently.”-Henry Ford

"Except in the fundamentals, think and let think"- J. Wesley

"I am impatient with stupidity, my people have learned to live without it"-Klaatu: "The Day the Earth Stood Still"

"All my men believe in God, they are ordered to"-Adolph Hitler

  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Thursday, April 14, 2005 10:56 AM
Probably, I'll see a couple of them this weekend.

Jeff
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted by T_Terrific on Thursday, April 14, 2005 10:27 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Jeff Herne

USS Alaska, and BOTH Ginger and Marianne.

I'm off to AMPS for the next four days, take care everyone.

Jeff


Jeff:

Are you saying both of these men (provided they are not "poker buddies")willl emphatically aand independently "go on the record" say that the Japanese had NO WAY of knowing ANYTHING about either the design OR construction of the Iowa class ships, and contact me (a tiney little grasshopper in a world of wizards) personally with their response?

If so I will gladly provide you with my contact info!

Tom Cowboy [C):-)]

Tom TCowboy

“Failure is the opportunity to begin again more intelligently.”-Henry Ford

"Except in the fundamentals, think and let think"- J. Wesley

"I am impatient with stupidity, my people have learned to live without it"-Klaatu: "The Day the Earth Stood Still"

"All my men believe in God, they are ordered to"-Adolph Hitler

  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Thursday, April 14, 2005 10:14 AM
USS Alaska, and BOTH Ginger and Marianne.

I'm off to AMPS for the next four days, take care everyone.

Jeff
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted by T_Terrific on Thursday, April 14, 2005 9:29 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Jeff Herne

I disagree here. Secrecy of these designs was of the utmost importance to the Japanese, in order for them to have the advantage when war with the US started. In addition, even though Japan withdrew from the Washington Treaty on it's own, it was still bound by the agreement in 1934 when the Yamatos were designed. Japan had to withdraw from the Treaty before it could officially start construction on the Yamato. This was the political aspect of the situation.

So how could the Japanese have known about the Iowas, and built the Yamatos to counter them, if Yamato came before Iowa, and for that matter, North Carolina and SoDak? Until Japan withdrew from the treaty, the US had no way of mounting 9 16" guns on a 35,000 ton hull.

Iowas were not built as counters to the Yamatos in the specific sense.

If you want to consider the Montana Class into the equation, there's a ship that was clearly built to counter a specific threat, in this case, the Yamatos.

So design work commenced on the Iowas in 1936, with the first hull laid in 1940. Yamato was launched in 1940.

Jeff


Hey Jeff:

I truly appreciate your ability to cite all these historical details, but still I fail to see where they disagree with my hypothesis.

If you recall, the Japanese Admiral Yamamoto was in fact a Harvard grad. That means we had citizens of Japan, who were directly connected with their military, freely running around the U.S., visiting facilities, etc, all being able to gather and transfer intellegence.

I don't know if you knew this, but the Junkers 88 medium bomber was designed by an American design team that was sent to Germany, and careful study of the P-51 Mustang and the FW-190 airframes definately show "a genetic match".

To your question : " how could the Japanese have known about the Iowas?"

I posit the question: How did the Japanese get photos of the Americn fleet in Peal Harbor prior to December 7?

To your statement: "Iowas were not built as counters to the Yamatos in the specific sense"- I don't disagree with that at all.

As I am sure you know, the modern, all metal turreted naval ship design began in America, with the U.S.S. Monitor.

The U.S. defeated the Spanish Armada in the late 19th century, which showed an obvious superiority of both design and seamanship.

The U.S.S. Constitution STOOD DOWN the "invincible Royal Navy" in 1812.

We basically have always been the leaders in naval technology, and therefore I would see no need for us to study a Japanese design, but rather for tehm to study ours.

"how could the Japanese have known about the Iowas, and built the Yamatos to counter them, if Yamato came before Iowa?"

As we both know, planning and building are, in fact two different things, and I really don't think the Iowa was planned and built in 6 months, in fact I would say the Japanese planners had to rush much more then ours.

Take for instance the H.M.S. Deadnaught. In fact the USS South Carolina was the first to be actually designed with all big guns, but die to Jacky Fisher, the Draednaught was launched first!

So, great historians notwithstanding, I am sticking to this hypothesis, unless, until someone who was "actually there" can personally tell me otherwise Smile [:)]

Tom Cowboy [C):-)]

Tom TCowboy

“Failure is the opportunity to begin again more intelligently.”-Henry Ford

"Except in the fundamentals, think and let think"- J. Wesley

"I am impatient with stupidity, my people have learned to live without it"-Klaatu: "The Day the Earth Stood Still"

"All my men believe in God, they are ordered to"-Adolph Hitler

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted by T_Terrific on Thursday, April 14, 2005 8:54 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Jeff Herne

AmtrakPaladin,

Thanks. I've spent the better part of my life studying this stuff as a museum professional, and here I am arguing with folks who 'learnt' it from the History Channel...

Jeff


Don't yurealize a Higher Power has placed here to teach you to be kind to us lesser mortals JeffBig Smile [:D]

TomCowboy [C):-)]

Tom TCowboy

“Failure is the opportunity to begin again more intelligently.”-Henry Ford

"Except in the fundamentals, think and let think"- J. Wesley

"I am impatient with stupidity, my people have learned to live without it"-Klaatu: "The Day the Earth Stood Still"

"All my men believe in God, they are ordered to"-Adolph Hitler

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted by T_Terrific on Thursday, April 14, 2005 8:51 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Jeff Herne

In the case of the Hood, speed actually was armor...

Jeff


Actually that axiom was in fact coined by Jacky Fisher, the First Sea Lord oversaw the construction of the H.M.S. Dreadnaught in 1903.

If you can locate an old copy, Jeff, I recommend Massie's book "Dreadnaught".

I hav one, and it is about 3-4" thick, and it is so thorough, practically can be used as an encyclopedic history of the late 19th/early 20th century of this class of ship.

Tom Cowboy [C):-)]

Tom TCowboy

“Failure is the opportunity to begin again more intelligently.”-Henry Ford

"Except in the fundamentals, think and let think"- J. Wesley

"I am impatient with stupidity, my people have learned to live without it"-Klaatu: "The Day the Earth Stood Still"

"All my men believe in God, they are ordered to"-Adolph Hitler

  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by ddp59 on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 4:20 PM
Marianne & warspite!!!
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 4:03 PM
The Minnow would be lost...the Minnow would be lost... :-)

Jeff
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 3:54 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Jeff Herne

Absolutely...now...I have a serious question for the group to debate...Ginger or Marianne?

Whistling [:-^]

Just kidding...

Jeff


1/350 Shokaku! oh wait, that isnt an optionTongue [:P]
how about a 1/72 Minnow?Approve [^]
JOIN OUR COMMUNITY!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

SEARCH FORUMS
FREE NEWSLETTER
By signing up you may also receive reader surveys and occasional special offers. We do not sell, rent or trade our email lists. View our Privacy Policy.