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Zvezda Greek Trireme

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  • Member since
    June 2004
  • From: Camas, WA
Zvezda Greek Trireme
Posted by jamnett on Thursday, January 13, 2005 4:48 PM
I noticed the Zvezda Greek Trireme or (Triera?) kit which is advertised at 1/72 scale appears to be from the same mold as the Academy Roman Warship. They look nearly identical. I was wondering if the Academy kit is really 1/250 as all the ads claim? Seems I vaguely recall reading somewhere that the Academy kit has the wrong scale printed on the box, or maybe in my senility I imagined that.

Anyway, it looks as though Zvezda bought molds from Academy or it's the other way around. I built two of the Academy ships years ago and I believe they are about 12-13" in length. I puzzled because that would make the Zvezda Greek ship about 42" long. BTW Military Hobbies has it for about half the cost of the other dealers on the web. (Zvezda has a new one, the Roman Warship in 1/72)
If the Greek Triera is that big I'll pay the $49.95 and get one from Military Hobbies ASAP. I saw a built one on the web and they look great.
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: United Kingdom / Belgium
Posted by djmodels1999 on Thursday, January 13, 2005 4:49 PM
If it's anything like the Roman warship, the actual kit is more like 1/48 to me..!
  • Member since
    June 2004
  • From: Camas, WA
Posted by jamnett on Thursday, January 13, 2005 5:20 PM
My duh! I just did the math and 1/250 can't be right. That would make the real deal about 200' plus in length. I read at Britannica on the web that Greek biremes were about 80' long so I can't imagine the triremes to be 3 times that size. All this -reme stuff refers to number or banks of oarsmen not size of the ship.

I noticed the Zvezda Roman ship to be released has the "gangplank" looking device which the actual ships carried for boarding enemy vessels. This wasn't included in the Academy kit. For painting reference, the information I read was that the Romans used cedar and the Greeks used fir. Just my personal visual taste but I find these more interesting than the old Viking ships. I was wondering why the Zvezda is so spendy compared to Academy. Is this typical of Russian kits?
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: United Kingdom / Belgium
Posted by djmodels1999 on Thursday, January 13, 2005 5:24 PM
Well, the Academy kit was not really an Academy kit.... I just can't remember who got it out first right now, but The Roman warship is not a true Academy mold... Have you seen the Roman warship sold by Andrea Miniatures!? Fantastic. But oh soooo expensive!
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Thursday, January 13, 2005 9:00 PM
The Zvezda Triera is about 22" long making like 132 foot long actual ship.which is pretty close to most historians ideas on them.In Bjorn Landstrom book The Ship he gives the size of the Greek Bireme to be about 80' . Thats got half the oars of the Trireme.The Academy.Imai,Heller,Mini craft and Etc. kit.All those companys have used the same mold.Anyway that kit is about 15" long which would get to about a 1/72 scale of 90' which give or take is close.The main big differents in the kits other than length is the Zvezda kit has three bank of oars on both sides. Given it 114 total oars.On the Academy kit you only have one bank of oars per side a total of 26 oars.I've built both kits there are other differences also.If you want to see the completed kit I built of the Zvezda model.Go to Model Warships.com and look under my name theres a few pictures.

The Roman ship by Zvezda use almost the same hull design as the Greek ship with some slight differences.They added a boarding ramp to the front on a crane.Thats in the kit.Also the stern is alittle different.I believe the two kits by Zvezda to be newer molds.I've not seen any other kits that size before.
Rod
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Belgium
Posted by DanCooper on Sunday, January 16, 2005 1:10 PM
Wasn't the Academy-kit actually from IMAI ? I remember building when I was a kit, and lately I have been playing with the idea of building it again (if it is scale 1/72) and make a dio of it leaving Alexandria.
People who read the (European) "ALEX"-comics know more or less what I have in mind.

On the bench : Revell's 1/125 RV Calypso

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: United Kingdom / Belgium
Posted by djmodels1999 on Sunday, January 16, 2005 1:52 PM
Yep, I see what's on your mind, Dan..! Got to love Alix (for the French-speaking world!). Have you got the special edition on the ships?
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Belgium
Posted by DanCooper on Sunday, January 16, 2005 2:09 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by djmodels1999

Yep, I see what's on your mind, Dan..! Got to love Alix (for the French-speaking world!). Have you got the special edition on the ships?


Not yet Domi, I have just REstarted to collect them, as a kid I had the complete series, and a couple of months ago I bought the first three books again, and one of the later books that didn't exist in my childhood.
However I'm not sure if the ships-edition has been translated yet, I only know of the specials on Ale(i)x's travels.

BTW, I actually never known wither the series is Belgian or French ?

On the bench : Revell's 1/125 RV Calypso

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: United Kingdom / Belgium
Posted by djmodels1999 on Sunday, January 16, 2005 2:56 PM
I'm pretty sure Martin was French... I had the whole collection up until 1990 when I sold everything, including over 300 other BDs of mine (to fund my first trip to the US)...

I regret very much having lost the whole collection...
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Belgium
Posted by DanCooper on Sunday, January 16, 2005 3:06 PM
And I suppose, just like me, you regret ever selling those BD's, I guess ?

On the bench : Revell's 1/125 RV Calypso

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Sunday, January 16, 2005 6:18 PM
I just picked up the model this past week. Right now I'm starting to paint the sub-assem. This model has never been released before, at least in the current size/scale. The detail is IMPRESSIVE. I'm taking pics' as I go to do a write up.

Jake

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Belgium
Posted by DanCooper on Sunday, January 16, 2005 7:16 PM
Great, I'm sure we're all looking forward to those pics

On the bench : Revell's 1/125 RV Calypso

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Sunday, January 16, 2005 7:37 PM
I did a bit of research on the types of block the vessel used, and they may be some light modification the single blocks seem a bit too modern. Mr. Tilley would you know?

Jake

 

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, January 17, 2005 3:28 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by millard

I've built both kits there are other differences also.If you want to see the completed kit I built of the Zvezda model.Go to Model Warships.com and look under my name theres a few pictures.


Hello:

Please could you post the whole link if possible. I am unlucky to find your images on modelwarship.com. Are there any search options at that site?


Thanks.
Katzennahrung
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Monday, January 17, 2005 6:10 PM
Katzennahrung
If you go to www.modelwarships.com Then go to there model gallery section. Then under that section go to small craft. My Greek Triera was #46 today on the list.
Rod
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:55 AM
I don't know much about ancient galleys. I do, however, have a good friend, my colleague Tony Papalas, who's an ancient historian by profession and has published several articles about Greek triremes. He's told me some interesting - and eye-opening - things about the subject.

Here's what I do know. The Landstrom book is a classic, and anything in it deserves to be taken seriously - with the proviso that Landstrom was working in the late fifties or early sixties. (My father, bless his heart, gave me a copy of that book for Christmas when I was in the seventh grade. I still have that copy, though it's practically falling apart. I sure wish some publisher would reprint it - along with Landstrom's book on Egyptian ships, which grad students seek like some precious metal.)

According to Tony, much of what used to be taken for granted about Greek and Roman galleys has been proven to be sadly mistaken. He talks with amusement, for instance, about the "replica" that was built for the making of the original, silent movie version of Ben-Hur, back in the twenties. The movie company hired a professional historian who was recognized as the world's greatest authority on ancient warships as a consultant, and spent a great deal of money building an "authentic" galley. The only problem with it was that, though the oarsmen hauled on those oars till they were practically having heart attacks, they couldn't get the thing to move. In the distant shots there's a heavy rope leading from the bow below the waterline to a tugboat that's just out of the picture.

Most of us, I'm sure, have pleasant memories of the "galley sequence" in the 1950s Ben-Hur:

"Battle...speed!" Thump..........thump..........thump..........thump..........
"Attack...speed!" Thump........thump........thump........thump........
"Ramming...speed!" Thump...thump...thump...thump...
"Waterskiing...speed!" Thumpathumpathumpathumpathumpa...

In that movie, I believe, all the "galleys" either were models or were sitting still in a "lake" on the back lot of the Italian studio where the film was made.

In recent years the study of ancient warships has become, as they say, "a whole new ballgame" due to the construction in the Mediterranean of a full-size replica of a Greek trireme. That project took several years of extremely high-powered research. It's generally regarded as a benchmark of how replicas of historical artifacts can be used to enhance our understanding of history.

One of the many revelations has been that the image of the emaciated, starving galley slave hauling away at his oar deep in the smelly bowels of the ship is a myth. In the first place, as the volunteer oarsmen of the replica found out in a hurry, to swing one of those oars for more than a few minutes at a stretch requires a genuine athlete in excellent physical condition. The guys who took the replica through its experimental paces spent months in training in gyms on land. In the second place, the oarsmen have to be seated in a well-ventilated space, virtually surrounded by open air. If they aren't, the perspiration on the surface of their bodies can't evaporate and they pass out within a few minutes.

Ancient historians and literary experts apparently didn't care much for the movie Troy. Not having studied the Illiad or the Odyssey seriously since grade school, I rather liked it - and though the ships in the wide shots obviously were computer-generated, I liked the fact that the guys pulling the oars clearly were sailors, rather than zombie-like slaves, and were out in the fresh air.

That replica has caused lots of scholars to tear up their preconceptions about galleys and start over. A great deal remains to be learned about this type of warship. We know that, in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, several European countries did "sentence people to the galleys" as punishment for crimes. But such felons must have been kept in reasonable physical shape - and the ships probably didn't try to travel more than a few miles at a time under oars alone.

To my knowledge the best source of information on this whole topic is The Age of the Galley, in the "Conway's History of the Ship" series. It's one of the most interesting volumes in the series, in that almost everything in it is new information.

As to the various kits - I haven't built or looked closely at any of them. Right at this moment I'm hesitant to spend any time on a model of an ancient galley, for fear that my friend Tony will see it and pronounce that everything about it is WRONG.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 4:26 AM
try
http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/trihrhs.asp
for pictures of the reconstructuded ship.
I have not checked the english version but the photos are indicative.
also http://www.atm.ox.ac.uk/rowing/trireme.html
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 9:21 AM
Thyamis has provided us with a couple of terrific sites. The second one is especially good for the modeler. By following the links on it one should be able to get pretty thoroughly updated on the current state of research regarding Greek galleys.

My general impression, on the basis of those photos, is that the plastic kits are in general too short to be accurate representations of real Greek (or, presumably, Roman) war galleys. Maybe they came in more than one size, but I'm inclined to think a trireme would, by definition, be a mightly long, skinny ship.

A couple of other points leap out from the pictures. That reconstructed ship is only a few years old, and already is sagging at the stern. I suspect that's entirely authentic, given the hull length and structure. And the oarsmen are in full view (presumably the white tee shirts and baseball caps are less than authentic), because the ship has been designed to let lots of air circulate around them.

The modeling world needs a kit based on this replica. Such a model would be a thing of great beauty and historical fascination.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 21, 2005 1:48 PM
Glad you like it.....
Trivia....both Triereme Olympias and armoured cruiser Averoff (c.1911) are still considered as on active duty......
  • Member since
    June 2004
  • From: Camas, WA
Posted by jamnett on Friday, January 21, 2005 3:47 PM
In case anyone is interested, there is an article about undersea exploration specifically an upcoming search for trireme wrecks at www.cdnn.info. It's .info not .com or you'll get some site under construction. Enter triremes or ancient warships in the search index.
CDNN stands for Cyber Diver News Network.
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, April 15, 2005 4:25 PM
I'm "replying" to this topic in order to get it moved to page one of the Forum. The subject has just come up in another thread.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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