PT Camo. WW II

John,

If you'd like, I have a couple of pictures of two separate PT boats. Both of them are on display at the USS Massachusetts batteship museum in Fall River, Mass along with the Joseph P. Kennedy destroyer and a WWII sub (I forget the name).
Let me know if you'd like to see the pics...One is painted in the Pacific green scheme and the other grey. My email is tankbuster2005@yahoo.com if you'd like I'll send you the pics...I prefer it that way rather then posting it because with my internet connection its just a lot faster to scan it and attach it to an email.

Take care,
Tankbuster2005

While this isn't on the PT boat topic, it goes up there with memories and ships colors:
My uncle was on the USS Indianapolis and I wanted to make one for him "exactly ."
Every one of the vets I contacted told me the ship was the same color when I asked: Gray.
(With eyes rolled and wondering if I was an idiot no doubt).

Don

Hi Dave,

Thanks for sharing that. I'll plug one more variable into the equation:

The 5-NG that we produce is the final version of that color, introduced in late 1943. There were at least two earlier, official, dark greens.

In 1942 the USN introduced their first series of greens & browns--Brown 1A through 4A and Green 1A through 4A. Green 1A was a very dark Olive Green, in the neighborhood of FS 34064. I'm not sure off the top of my head whether these paints were made available to forces afloat pre-mixed, or were mixed from tinting pastes; I think they were pre-mixed at Mare Island and Norfolk USN paint factories.

In early 1943 those colors were dropped and replaced by 4 greens--5-HG Haze Green, 5-OG Ocean Green, 5-NG Navy Green, and 20-G Deck Green--which were mixed using 5-GTM Tinting Paste and 5-U White. Those colors apparently proved a bit too bright in use, and in late 1943 the 5-GTM Tinting Paste was revised to a more olive green hue, resulting in 5 new revised olive greens with 5-PG Pale Green and 5-LG Light Green being the newcomers.

In 1944 the USN revised things again for the amphibious and PT forces, with the new colors being #1 Green, #2 Green, #3 Green, and #4 Brown.

I strongly suspect that the color in question may have been the 1942 Green 1A. If you have access to a set of FS chips you'll see what I mean when you look at 34064. If anyone wants an accurate look at all of these colors, order the USN Set 2 paint chips from Randy Short at http://www.shipcamouflage.com.

We also have MTB Green and Tropical Green available, as well as #1 Green, #2 Green, #3 Green, and #4 Brown.

Cheers,
John Snyder
White Ensign Models
http://WhiteEnsignModels.com

PT Boats Inc. now has a message board and I went there to see what I could learn about the color of the RON 5 boats (PT109, 105, 103, 107, etc.) while at Rendova in the Solomons. I didn't find what I was looking for so I posted a new message asking if anyone had any definitive information on the subject. I received a lot of responses. Here is what I've learned and believe to be as accurate as we're going to get on this subject.

Photographic History:
a) The boats were light gray on the hull and 5N or dark gray on the upper surfaces coming out of the factory and during testing. This is documented.
b) When the boats were operating near the Panama Canal area photographs indicate the color was changed. It appears from the photos that the boats were simply painted 5N or dark gray on all the surfaces. John Snyder makes an excellent point that history tells us that it is very unlikely that there was any 5N paint in the Panama. However my books show the 109 painted all dark as it was loaded and shipped to the Panama Canal zone so it's reasonable to assume that they were painted while in New York. One of the respondents sent me a clipping (unable to identify source) that said the boats were painted dark gray when they were loaded and shipped to Panama.
c) The next evidence I have shows photos of RON 5 boats 103 and 107 in route to Rendova. At this point they have been painted a new color which is from all accounts green and darker in appearance than when the boats were in Panama. In the photos the boats look almost black. All of the respondents said that the boats were dark OD green including a vet who even described the underlayment colors as they stripped them down in dry dock in 1944. Donovan's book, PT-109 describes the color as "forest green" which he certainly learned from his interviews with the former crew and other participants in the theatre. Photos of the 109 boat also indicate that the color is very dark. One person indicated that the color was Navy Green 5-NG. John Snyder and Al Ross indicated the color might be "tropical green". I purchased samples of WEM's MTB Green, Tropical Green, and Navy Green 5-NG as well as some Testors products. I layed on samples against a gray primer. MTB Green was too light. Tropical Green was too blue and didn't strike me as even close to OD Green. Only the WEM Navy Green 5-NG lightened with a little white paint for aging and scaling gave me the result I was looking for which when photographed in black & white most closely matched the photos I have. Maybe not scientific but it's the best I have to work with. I found a similar paint color from Testors (Dark Green FS34079). However I need to put in a little plug for the WEM folks. Their paint is a joy to work with. It shoots nice from an airbrush and brushes on much better than the Testors product. It's absolutely marvelous stuff and the price is reasonable.

As Al Ross told me, nobody knows for sure. But based on all the input and the photographic evidence I believe this is as good as I'm going to get and I'm sure I'll like the finished result.

I hope this is helpful. Now back down to the basement to complete the 105. I'll post photos eventually but I'm not going to make any promises on when that will get done.

Dave

Hi Dave,

Certainly the passage of years has made things very foggy. I base my statements on the work of Al Ross, whom I consider Mr. PT boat (co-author of Allied Coastal Forces with John Lambert). Al developed a list of virtually every boat and the camo it wore, in V.2 of that work (V.3 should be out some time this year or next). Al's father served on the 34 boat in the Philippines (the "They Were Expendable" squadron).

We know from photographic and other evidence that the 109 and others wore the #5 Standard Navy Gray/5-D Dark Gray scheme on delivery. Photos of them loaded for transport overseas shows them to have been repainted in a monochromatic scheme, undoubtedly one of the greens--probably MTB Green which was a ready-mix. Once in the field though, they would have had the same sources as the rest of the Forces Afloat: 5-U White, 5-TM Blue Tinting Paste, and 5-GTM Green Tinting Paste, and the ratios for Tropical Green that I cited yesterday are recorded.

Cheers,
John

Hi John,
Does anyone really know for sure? The reason I say that, and we've had this conversation before, is that Dick Kersey wrote me and told me his boat (PT-105) and all the other boats in his squadron were gray at the time of the 109 sinking. Robert Lanthier who has done extensive research working directly with PT Boat crews and building models for them in 1/10 scale (his work is at the PT Boat museum) was told that the boats were green and painted with a mixture of black and yellow paint (basically an OD Green) because that's what they had to work with in the field. PT Boats Inc. says it was two shades of gray which we know is how the 103 class were originally painted out of the factory.

For the most part the majorty seem to believe that the boats were dark green. It is very likely (as you mentioned to me before) that memories fail and get confused so Mr. Kersey whose boat started out as gray may just remember it that way. You also explained to me earlier that there's no evidence of what the paint really looked like and suggested that the MTB Green is as good as anything.

I really like the MTB Green you sent me but I'm also going to place an order for the Tropical Green and give it a look. As frustrating as it has been to determine the color of these boats I've found it a very interesting historical discussion. I've learned a great deal and met some teriffic people in the process. I really appreciate the work you guys at WEM do to try and solve these little mysteries. In the end they may just stay that way but I know you guys are doing your best to add some clarity and help us modelers to recreate history as accurately as possible.

Thanks for all your work!
David Waples

The early Elco 80' PTs were delivered/commissioned wearing a scheme of #5 Standard Navy Gray on the hull, with decks and cabins painted 5-D Dark Gray.

In the early part of the war those boats deploying to the Southwest Pacific repainted in MTB Green (and ours is based on more than just guesswork!). Those boats in the Philippines did repaint in a green made from yellow and black, but those were not Elco 80-footers. Boats in the Southwest Pacific in 1942-3 often painted up in a field mix known as "Tropical Green", made by mixing equal parts of 5-TM blue tinting paste and 5-GTM green tinting paste with 5-U White (this is what the 109 was wearing when lost).

The Navy began to issue official greens in 1943, and then revised them twice in 1944.

We've got MTB Green, Tropical Green, and both versions of the 1944 revised greens accurately matched and available in our Colourcoats enamels.

You'll also find camouflage patterns, with specific color notations, in several books. The best available is Allied Coastal Forces V2, which has loads of information on the boats, their weapons systems, and their camouflage.

Cheers,
John Snyder
White Ensign Models
http://WhiteEnsignModels.com

In the book "American PT Boats in WWII" by Victor Chun, he has several pages on camoflage, and paint, plus there are great pictures, unfortunately their all in black and white. I finished a Revell PT boat recently and made it a late war boat, with roll off torpedos and a 40mm Bofors. The nice thing about the PT boat is they were so heavily modified by their crews almost anything is OK.......

See my PT:

http://home.comcast.net/~jragusa5/Models.html

John,
It's going to depend on which boat and when. I trust you're building the Revell kit. It's a model of the PT103 class boat. Out of production these boats were painted a couple of shades of gray. However just prior to deployment to the pacific they were painted green by mixing black and yellow paint because that's what they had. You can do the same thing or go with a dark gray/green. White Ensign Model produces a paint they call MTB Green which is frankly their best guess. There is no official mixture, just memories and you know how that can be. Have a great time with your son.

I really like the ptboat.org that Jake mentioned.

Here is another site that is pretty good.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mandm/ptboatp1.htm

I think White Ensign Models out of England used to make a color that worked but not sure if it is still in production. I would just pick a good Foliage Green and go for it. Also, if you have the Revell kit of PT-109 (like I got for Xmas), don't use the decals as they are the wrong size.

Have fun on your project.

I'm in the middle od building the Dumas 4ft. R/C version for a client right now. I just dropped in 2 astro-flight 40 into the hull, Man she gonna make rooster tails !

Here is the best links that I have for such information.

http://www.ptboats.org/

http://www.defendersofamerica.org/DOANM_WWII_Photos.cfm

http://www.huckinsyacht.com/history_PT.html

Jake

Thanks for the hint. Most of my relts and their friends were small to medium boat Navy, so I should've known. But, No-One liked to paint the ship! Dilute the paint with a quarter white and weather with burnt umber to taste. Have fun, John

You are opening a big can of worms!
I know becasue I opened the same can a few months ago by asking the same question.
In the Pacific theater the ships were painted green. A very dark green with a mix of paints that, as far as I can tell were mixed basically by the guys doing the painting. Sure they had a reference they were supposed to use, but there was a war on and the man said "Paint it!" So they did. The tropical sun would fade the paint rapidly anyway.

Don