liberty ships

Thank you Chris;

I think thats worth trying for the appearance of the ship under way. It would also make it worthwhile to install the Tom's lifeboat supports. I wasn't going to bother with them because they'd be almost invisible with the boats swung in.

On the other hand they would be rather vulnerable to handling.

Regards;
Michael

The boats would normally be swung out, although they were swung in while in port and when there was a risk of losing the boats due to heavy seas. The GMM photoetch set has davits in both positions.

If you want to use the Trumpeter davits I suppose you could modify them. The heavier angled part of the davit is what pivots out. The upper half of the vertical bit is a sheath screw that extends when cranked, pushing the davit out. The triangle consisting of the lower part of the vertical piece and the angle brace is the frame that supports the moving bits. I guess you would have to remove the pivoting part of the davit from the kit part, and then replace the sheath screw with a longer piece of plastic or brass rod.

Regards,

Chris Friedenbach
Crewmember, SS Jeremiah O’Brien

Chris;

Thank you for the information on the Trumpeter mode, it'll be most useful even to my limited level of finer detail.

One thing I read (in relation to Oceans) was that the boats were swung out while the ship was under way. Was this a practice on Liberty's and could the kit davits be so modified?

Michael

Chris, thanks for the reply! That's good information.

Abram,

Becoming a crewmember is not that difficult. You have to be a member of the organization, and interview with the head of the department you want to join. After that you can start volunteering once your application is in. Volunteers officially become a crewmember after putting in 100 hours of work. Those of us who actually operate the O’Brien underway (as opposed to working as docents or in the store) typically have Merchant Mariner’s documents or licenses, although we accept people without them and have our own training programs.

We have a number of models onboard, including several builds of the 1/192 scale Bluejacket kit. One of these and a 1/96 scale half-hull model were on display in the old store in No. 3 ‘tween deck, and have not been put back on display since the store moved (the store you saw in No. 1 has only been open for about a month). We have a number of Liberty ship models in storage, including a 1/96 scale WWII vintage model and 1/300 and 1/700 scale models. There are also several sets of WWII recognition models in storage. Some of these will eventually go on display in our future museum in No. 1 ‘tween deck (currently in the final planning stages).

Regards,

Chris Friedenbach
Crewmember, SS Jeremiah O’Brien

Ah, darn. It's a very nice ship, and you guys have kept her in great shape. How do you go about becoming a crew member? While I was on board I don't recall seeing any models of the ship on board. I was going to ask the gentleman in the gift shop about it, but totally spaced. Was there a model on board and I missed it, or has one not been built for you guys? Or is there another reason for there not being a model onboard?

Like I said, most of the flaws are minor, and are probably the same sort of things you would find on any plastic ship kit. I would rate this kit as more accurate than the earlier Arizona and Hornet releases. I haven’t looked over my Trumpeter Essex in great detail, but it probably has similar flaws and omissions. One great advantage of this kit over some earlier releases is that the overall dimensions and shape of the hull (other than the minor problem at the stern which can be fixed with a small fillet of sheet plastic) are pretty much bang on. The fact that my inaccuracies list mostly deals with little details that are less than 1/8” across on a 15” model shows that overall it is pretty good.

I do find it unfortunate that more effort was not made to represent a WWII ship with more options, like alternate armament and life rafts and gun tub styles. One other item I forgot to mention is that the O’Brien and some other Liberty ships were armed with two 3” 50 cal guns instead of the 3” 50 and 5” 38 as represented on the O’Brien today and in the model kit. A lot of this could probably have been dealt with pretty easily, but to my knowledge Trumpeter did not try to get this sort of information from our organization. I had the opportunity to view test shots of the kit in late June or early July of last year and pointed out most of the mistakes listed above, but no changes were made between the test shots and the final kit. I also made some suggestions such as including both black and white draft marks on the decals, but these were not incorporated either.

Regards,

Chris Friedenbach
Crewmember, SS Jeremiah O’Brien

Chris;

Phew!!! After that list I wonder if it's worth building the damn kit at all! The only consolation is that most people viewing it wouldn't know the difference either.

It's a pity Trumpeter seem to be content to produce a model of the current O'Brien when, with little more effort, they could have covered a wider selection of the class from WWII.

This is a relatively expensive kit for its size and a more comprehensive instruction book with details of possible variations and especially rigging wouldn't seem to be asking too much.

Michael

Abram,

I hope you enjoyed your visit- you missed me by two days. I am usually aboard two days a week, although at the moment I am doing three days a week due to some temporary staffing issues. I also put in some extra time for special events, such as the steaming weekend we have coming up this weekend. When we sail the ship during the summer myself and many of the other volunteers put in a lot more time, often staying aboard for a week or so if possible. It’s a lot of work, but a lot of fun at the same time.

Regards,

Chris Friedenbach
Crewmember, SS Jeremiah O’Brien

Just as a side note, Chris Friedenbach, how often are you at the Jeremiah O’Brien? I was just there this past weekend and was wondering if maybe you were there too? It was on Friday of last week (the 8th I believe).

There are a large number of flaws in the Trumpeter kit, most relatively minor. The funnel is wrong- it should be oval in section, but instead is round which makes it look much too wide. A few notable parts such as the galley ventilator are missing. In addition, there should not be two styles of mismatched life rafts (although this is correct for the O’Brien’s current museum configuration). The Trumpeter propeller is a high speed screw, and the blades should be much narrower. The way the winches are portrayed is not quite right, especially with the warping winch near the stern. Also, the Trumpeter rudder does not portray the split contra-guide design use on the Liberty ship. All of these issues are addressed in the L’Arsenal set. While some of the L’Arsenal parts (the funnel, for example) are not completely accurate, they are still much better than what Trumpeter provides.

Some of the other major flaws include a misshapen after house (the forward protrusion is actually a separate structure), and a shape problem at the base of the stern casting (it should be curved where it joins the rudder support, so that the area above and below where the propeller mounts are basically symmetrical). The bilge keels are about an inch too short (corrected in the GMM photoetch set), and the underwater hull penetrations portrayed are way too big and on the wrong side (on the starboard side there is only the smaller forward opening, while both are found on the port side). The main house has a bunch of door recesses that are either missing or are too wide and too shallow. The recess on the aft end of the bridge is not correctly shaped, and the flying bridge wings extend too far back. This last one means that you can’t correctly add photoetch ladders to the flying bridge without blocking part of a doorway on the boat deck. The heavy lift boom foundations are heavily simplified, and the boom foundation at No. 4 hatch is way too large. The bulwarks have some problems with frame spacing, which results in frames going right through the chocks that mooring lines are passed through.

The above list is by no means complete, but it includes most of the more noticeable errors. Many of these are not too difficult to fix.

The gun tub shielding is a form of plastic armor. It is essentially asphalt mixed with granite chippings. On the gun tubs it is supported by bands of steel. There are also flat sheets of it around the bridge, and these are supported by a series of steel disks (these are the bumps on the front of the Trumpeter deck house- in reality these should be flush or even recessed slightly).

Regards,

Chris Friedenbach
Crewmember, SS Jeremiah O’Brien

Chris;

I'm still studying the information I've printed out from your previous posts, especially the rigging.

What do you regard as the flaws you refer to above?

One thing that does stand out in the photographs is the texture of the 20mm gun tubs. They appear to be made from steel bands and concrete. Is this so?

I'm not familiar with the L'Arsenal option, I'll have to look out for it. Toms were also talking about resin parts to convert the basic kit into the John W Brown but I've yet to see it.

MJH

I agree that if you are going to get just one set and want to maximize detail, the GMM set should be it. It costs about twice what the Tom’s set does, but you get at least twice as much detail. If you are really wild about accuracy and detail I would recommend using a mixture of the two, plus the set from L’Arsenal. This third set has a lot of resin components that correct some of the flaws in the Trumpeter kit, and also has some items not found in the Tom’s or GMM sets.

The Tom’s set has a few parts that are better than the GMM set, particularly the boom collars, and some of the cargo blocks. It also has a few structural and railing elements that are not included in the GMM set. I am also looking at combining some of the cable reel components from the two, as the relief etching on the GMM set (while very nicely done) is not accurate for some of the reels. Of course, for every piece that the Tom’s set renders better there are at least ten items in the GMM set that Tom’s Modelworks doesn’t include at all.

I haven’t had a look at the Tom’s Modelworks vehicle or aircraft sets yet, so I can’t comment on them.

Regards,

Chris Friedenbach
Crewmember, SS Jeremiah O’Brien

For anyone building the Trumpeter kit.

If you want to add some basic detail such as the fair-weather bridge, railings etc. the Toms Modelworks PE brass set is OK but some of the dimensions are out, especially the stanchions along the lower edge of the boat deck to the bulwarks. Also the ladder steps are a pain to bend round to the right angle.

If you're more serious than me I suggest the Gold Medal Models set is a better buy, certainly more comprehensive and expensive.

The Toms white-metal vehicles are alright, especially the Shermans, but some are a bit rough. The aircraft are also a bit dodgy - I'd rate them just passable.

MJH

In reply to Fred,

I don’t know offhand if a Sherman tank required the deck to be reinforced. This was certainly done for heavier loads such as locomotives. Reinforcing was done by adding wooden support pillars in the ‘tween deck, so it would not be visible on a model.

Vehicles (including tanks) would be loaded right on the deck, and trucks could be loaded on the hatch covers. They would be blocked in by wooden cribbing, and also strapped to the deck using wire rope and turnbuckles. New attachment points for the cribbing and straps would often be temporarily welded the deck if existing ones were not conveniently located. You can still see scars from these scattered around the O’Brien’s decks.

Regards,

Chris Friedenbach
Crewmember, SS Jeremiah O’Brien

Hopefully the O’Brien’s boot topping will be removed at the next drydocking. It is something several of us have been working on for a while. This would allow us to go back to black draft markings, which is historically accurate.

The waterline on the Trumpeter kit is for a draft of about 20 feet, while the full load draft is about 28 feet. To do a fully loaded wartime Liberty you should take about a quarter inch off the upper hull.

As for offloading, it depends on the sea conditions. During the Normandy invasion everything the ship carried was offloaded into landing craft of some sort. We have photos of the O’Brien unloading trucks onto LCTs and Rhino barges. Even with the Mulberry harbors, from a practical standpoint it was not really possible to unload a Liberty ship at a pier until they started liberating major ports.

Regards,

Chris Friedenbach
Crewmember, SS Jeremiah O’Brien

Chris et al,
What a great thread. I appreciate the opportunity to pick brains here as I'm looking at the Trupeter model too.
With regard to stowing Shermans on deck, I assume there was some reinforcement of the deck involved? Would they be stowed on a wood dunnage layer? What about trucks?
Could trucks be carried on the hatch covers?
My Dad served on Libertys and I recall he had photos of P-51s carried as deck cargo. I'm trying to find them.
Fred

Chris;

Thanks very much for the information. I've taken it all on board and also that from earlier answers you've provided on this subject. The painting details are most interesting and confirm much that I suspected about wartime conditions.

The lack of black boot-topping on the Jerry was particularly interesting - I notice the John W Brown doesn't have it.

The separation line of the Trumpeter kit's hull to produce a waterline model seems to be fairly high, suggesting a heavily loaded state to me, rather than the Jerry's current high-riding appearance. I've decided on a fully-loaded waterline model rather than a full hull to take advantage of this, especially as there's no stand for the full hull.

I assume such heavy items as trucks and tanks would only be off-loaded at a dockside rather than on to landing craft in open water - can you advise?

MJH

The bulwark cutouts are for the torpedo net defense system. Ships with this system had an additional pair of booms alongside the forward and aft kingposts. The booms would be lowered so that they reached out over the side, and nets would be streamed between them. The nets were stowed alongside the aft kingpost, so the bulwark was removed in this area and a net collector was installed on either side. The net collector was a large pipe structure that guided the nets towards the kingpost and kept them from snagging on deck cargo. The width of the crosstrees was also doubled to allow for collaring the net booms. Many yards made the bulwark cutouts and/or the extended crosstrees a standard feature, even for ships that did not carry net defense equipment. The O’Brien was built with the cutout but without the extended crosstrees.

Tanks and other vehicles were typically left exposed to the elements. Prior to shipment overseas vehicles would be prepped by sealing up significant openings, so it was not necessary to cover them once they were on the ship. This was often done on an assembly line at the port of embarkation.

The standard cargo booms can only lift 5 tons. There is a 50 ton heavy lift boom at No. 2 and a 15 ton boom at No. 4. I believe a Sherman tank weighs in somewhere in the neighborhood of 34 tons.

Regards,

Chris Friedenbach
Crewmember, SS Jeremiah O’Brien

Chris;

I wonder if I can pick your brains also about Liberty ships. I'm also building the Trumpeter kit and I notice that the Jeremiah O'Brien has a section of the bulwarks near the stern and opposite the kingpost there, cut down to deck level. i have done this on my kit as I have seen it on other Liberty's, though not all. Do you know why this was done?

Also, if I load the decks with vehicles from the Tom's Modelworks sets, should the vehicles be covered with tarps and which cargo booms could lift tanks, such as Shermans?

MJH

Thanks Again Chris for your information about the storage racks for the booms on the O'Brien. After carefully examining the pictures and the parts I found the supports for the no. 1, 2 and 5 booms. You have helped me immensly and I appreciate it and thank you again for taking the time to address my question.

Quiltmodeler

I don’t have the kit instructions handy at the moment, so I can’t cite part numbers. The cradles for no. 1 hatch are on the after end of the forward gun tub. The cradles for no. 2 and 5 are located on top of the assemblies that mount just aft of the hatches (the ones with the anchors). Note that the anchor aft of no. 2 hatch is a figment of Trumpeter’s imagination, and should be left off.

Regards,

Chris Friedenbach
Crewmember, SS Jeremiah O’Brien

Chris
I appreciate your anserwing my inquirey regarding the boom storage provisions on the O'Brien and the picture reference. I may be a little dense but I don't see them on the Trumpeter kit. Are they seperate from the hatch covers or part of the covers.

Thanks again for your information
Quiltmodeler

Booms can be stored either vertically or horizontally.

When stored vertically they are locked into collars that extend out from the crosstrees. These collars are not included in the Trumpeter kit, although all of the photoetch sets that have been released have them. Vertical storage is a bit more labor intensive (securing the booms requires someone to go aloft), so it was typically only used if there was a deck cargo.

When lowered to the horizontal position the ends of the booms rest in cradles. Trumpeter includes the cradles at no. 1, 2, and 5 hatches in the kit. The cradles for no. 3 and 4 hatches should be located at each corner of the boat deck, but they are not included. Note that no. 3 hatch is so short that the booms are crossed to get them fit. The port boom is mounted slightly higher and crosses over the top of the starboard boom. These cradles are included in the Tom’s Modelworks and Gold Medal Models photoetch sets.

The photo at the following link shows the booms at no. 1 hatch in the lowered position, and the collars at the top of the mast are also visible.

http://www.steelnavy.com/images/liberty/ob22.jpg

Regards,

Chris Friedenbach
Crewmember, SS Jeremiah O’Brien

I am building the Trumpeter Jeremiah O'Brien and I would like to position the cargo booms in the stored position. Can anyone describe what the stored position supports looked like and where they were located.

Thank you very much for the info Chris , I will send you a picture
when the ship is complete

kindest regards

Trevor........TDB1

The running lights on a Liberty ship have two modes, regular navigation and convoy blackout conditions. The mode that was used varied depending on the perceived threats in the area the ship was operating. If a ship was operating independently in a blackout zone, then the lights would simply be left off instead of using the convoy blackout mode. The running lights are on a dimmer switch, and when used they would typically be turned down to reduce visibility.

The running lights are typical of any large powered vessel. There is a white stern light, red and green side lights located on the bridge wings, and two white masthead lights. The forward masthead light is located on the foremast, on a platform extending from the top of the crows nest. The second light is mounted on the top of the telescoping upper section of the mainmast. There are additional lights that are required by special situations, but these were not permanently rigged. For more information on the requirements governing these lights, including the arcs of visibility, check out the International Rules of the Road.

The convoy mode only has a single formation light, a blue light mounted directly below the stern light. This light is shielded to present a narrow arc, just enough to be visible from a ship directly astern.

There were two types of signal lights used during the war. Two Morse signal lights were carried, and these can be mounted on the bridge or flying bridge wings. In addition, there were lights used to signal in convoy. Initially these consisted of three pairs of red and green lights hung one on top of the other, which could be run up the signal halyards. The reds were to port and the greens to starboard, just like the side lights. Later on more permanent light towers constructed from steel pipe were used. These had an additional pair of white blinker lights added above the red and green lights.

There were other exterior lights that were not typically used during wartime. Spotlights are located on each bridge wing and on either side of the boat deck between the lifeboats. There are mast lights for illuminating the cargo hatches, and smaller lights are spread around the main house, after house and forward gun deck.

Regards,

Chris Friedenbach
Crewmember, SS Jeremiah O’Brien