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Rattlesnake vs. Rattlesnake

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, February 14, 2005 12:09 PM
Jamnett - You've identified a trend in the hobby business that's really disturbing. I've gone to the Revell-Monogram website several times lately and clicked on the "New and Forthcoming Releases" icon. The number of new "glue" kits (as opposed to "snap-together" or "pre-assembled" items) announced by Revell-Monogram for 2005 - cars, aircraft, ships, and everything else combined - is zero.

I'm hoping this merely indicates that the company is getting ready to announce its plans later, or that the website is out of whack. If Revell-Monogram stops making new merchandise, the era of the American plastic scale model kit may be over.

The bright spot is Revell-Germany, which has quite a few new products on its website (e.g., that spectacular 1/400 Queen Mary 2. Also some interesting reissues of old Revell kits. I'll probably buy an Hawaiian Pilot - the C-3 freighter originally released in the mid-fifties - just for its nostalgia value. And I see Squadron Mail Order is now taking orders for the Revell-Germany reissue of the 1/96 U.S.S. Kearsarge - one of the most sought-after ship kits. The bad news is that Squadron is pricing it at over $100.00. YEEOW! It originally cost $10.00 - and I suspect my parents paid less than that for it at the department store where they bought the one I got for my eleventh birthday.

I tell myself that gloom and doom for the American model industry have been forecast before. I worked in a hobby shop between about 1973 and 1980, and at that time there were all sorts of signs that the end was near. (Monogram had been taken over by Mattel; when it issued Snoopy In His Sopwith Camel, our aircraft enthusiast customers predicted that the apocalypse was at hand.) I imagine the hobby will survive again. But it won't be the same.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    June 2004
  • From: Camas, WA
Posted by jamnett on Monday, February 14, 2005 12:38 AM
I was buying some Evergreen plastic from a local shoe repair shop. (The owner is a model train fanatic and has more selection of Evergreen stock than the biggest hobby shop in my local area.) He told me that Lionel is going belly up because Atlas sued for some patent or copywright thing and won. As for ship kits, I would think companies producing lousy wood kits would put themselves out of business because of low quality or misrepresentation of subjects sooner or later. This might be a bit harsh but IMO the 1/96 Constitution and Revell Germany keeps Revell/Monogram alive since they don't seem to have a quality improvement agenda and don't release all new kits. They do have a couple of nice classics but with people like Trumpeter and other Asian plastic kit companies improving in quality and selection, can companies like R/M and Lindberg last forever offering the same old thing? I would think they will eventually be forced to change or go out of business. I would hope they do what US car makers did in the late 80's and choose to try to catch up in the quality department. I'd like to see some stuff that is actually new from the American old timers. But keep making the classics too.
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, January 31, 2005 11:34 AM
Rcboater and I see eye to eye; he's done a better job of making the point I was trying to make.

Those balsa-and-tissue kits in general (there are exceptions, of course) are indeed not intended to be scale models, aren't promoted as such, and can't reasonably be evaluated as such. Go ahead and evaluate them as flying models that don't fly well - but it's not fair to criticize them for scale inaccuracy. And Lionel trains aren't intended to be scale models, so it wouldn't be fair to evaluate them as such. Lionel is, in most respects, a toy company. (Be it noted that it's recently started producing some HO scale locomotives that, according to the magazine reviews, are actually pretty accurate. And the company clearly distinguishes between those scale models and the big, traditional Lionel trains for kids. I've also heard that Lionel has recently filed for bankruptcy - an earthshaking development in the model railroad world.)

When I was working in a hobby shop I sold, I suspect, several hundred stick-and-tissue kits from Guillows, Sterling, Comet, et al. I don't recall ever seeing a customer bring in a finished one. It's a universal understanding in the hobby business, though, that the vast majority of kits of all kinds never get finished.

My beef with those European ship model companies is that they pretend they ARE producing scale models. I sometimes wonder whether the people running firms like Mamoli, Corel, and Artesania Latina really know what a scale model is. I agree completely with rcboater: most of those Continental kits (there are exceptions; gotta be careful here), if built without modifications, produce objects that resemble real ships less than Guillows flying models resemble real airplanes.

One other big difference: the ship kits cost a lot more.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Derry, New Hampshire, USA
Posted by rcboater on Monday, January 31, 2005 7:11 AM
I' generally in agreement with jtilley-- the only wooden kits I'd consider buying are Model Shipways, BlueJacket, and Caldercraft.

I will take exception to one thing he said-- the part about stick and tissue airplanes. It's not really fair to disparage them as poor scale models-- in general, balsa kits are supposed to be flying models first, and scale models second. Many free flight designs have to take some liberties with truw scale outlines in order to produce a model that will fly.

Of course the ironic thing is that Guillows kits are considered to be poor examples of the flyiing model. In general, they are over engineered, with too much wood, and it is heavy balsa to begin with. My sense is that while many guillows kits are built, few are flown, as they are such poor flyers, 'cause they are way to heavy.

In the end, any Guillows kit will look a lot more like the prototype than one of the ficticious Euro-ship models resembles a real ship. (There- brought the thread back to ship modeling!)


Webmaster, Marine Modelers Club of New England

www.marinemodelers.org

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 28, 2005 4:57 AM
Along the lines we have been following, one additional caution to Mr. Tilley's message re: switching from plastic to wood....be sure to avoid imported kits. Northwest, BlueJacket and Model Shipways (ModelExpo) are the manufacturer's I would recommend.

Al Blevins
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, January 27, 2005 11:34 AM
Lufbery - excellent choice. I haven't worked with any of the Lumber Yard's products, but they have a fine reputation.

Many modelers think the "leap" from wood to plastic is far bigger than it really is. A reasonably dexterous adult who can build plastic ship models can also build wood ones. And damaged wood parts are considerably easier - and cheaper - to replace than parts from plastic kits.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Harrisburg, PA
Posted by Lufbery on Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:28 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by subfixer

I know better now, but haven't attempted another because I would have to buy a whole new set of tools which in this hobby can be fairly expensive. I'll stick to what I know- STYRENE


I've pretty much convinced myself to try the Lexington practicum led by Clay Feldman, the first part of which is in the current issue of Ships in Scale magazine.

I won't be scratchbuilding it, instead, I'll get the semi-kit from the Lumberyard for $75. That's enough to get the hull and top deck built. More information can be found here: www.briglex.org.

On the discussion board for the practicum, Clay Feldman posted the following list of suggested tools:

QUOTE:
1. Hobby knife set, with at least one light and one heavy handle. An assortment of blades to include at least the usual #11's in great abundance and a couple each of the wide and narrow chisel blades.
2. A micro (miniature surgical )knife handle and blades.
3. Micro drill bit set and pin vise.
4. Hobby plane (the kind with a "regular"
re-sharpenable blade, not a razor blade type.
5. One foot steel rule.
6. Hobby razor saw.
7. Jeweler's saw and blades (better than a coping saw).
8. Hobby file set (miniature files).
9. Tweezers.
10. Small side-cutting wire clippers.
11. Small scissors (pointed).
12. Pair of surgical forceps (file off the teeth).
13. Pair of needle-nosed pliers.
14. Hobby size C-clamps (at least a half-dozen; variable sized).
15. Machinist's square, 2".
16. Sanding blocks, sandpaper (80, 100, 150 grit); double-faced (carpet) tape.
16. Jewler's draw plate or treenail plate.

...and one indispensable power tool:

Dremel rotary tool with flexible shaft and at least drum and disc sander (not the Dremel disc sander, the one with snap-on flat discs- no central bolt) and cut-off saw accessories.

The next most useful power tool is a combination disc/belt power sander, very useful in shaping parts. After that, a scroll saw and then a modeler's drill press would be nice. For scratch-building, you will need a table saw and a thickness sander.


I realized that I'm pretty well set up with about half the items from working on plastic models. In fact, I'm pretty good until item 12 or so.

Now Clay makes the point that tool selection is a very personal thing, and his list is only a recommendation, but the list doesn't seem too daunting.

Regards,

-Drew

Build what you like; like what you build.

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Thursday, January 27, 2005 8:58 AM
John, you are correct about the continental brands driving people out of the hobby. I built a Baltimore Clipper plank on frame (walnut veneer on basswood) back in 1987 and haven't built another wooden kit since. It drove me back to aircraft and armor. I love ships and will build plastic kits but that piece of dung just drove me nuts. I know better now, but haven't attempted another because I would have to buy a whole new set of tools which in this hobby can be fairly expensive. I'll stick to what I know- STYRENE

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 8:02 PM
Trawlerman - I'm glad to hear you've decided to go with the Model Shipways kit. I think you'll be happy with it. Incidentally, the Rattlesnake is a beautiful ship and makes a really nice model. It has all the attributes of a full-rigged ship, but since it's so small the amount of repetition is relatively minimal.

One of my many complaints about those Continental European plank-on-bulkhead kits is that they drive so many people out of the hobby. I worked my way through grad school in hobby shop, and my boss eventually figured out that the best way to get repeat customers was to quit stocking such kits. The percentage of them that get finished is minimal. That, as anybody who's worked in a hobby shop knows, is depressingly true of model kits in general, but the Continental European sailing ships are by far the worst offenders.

The hobby world is sorely in need of well-designed wood sailing ship kits that (a) are reasonably accurate reproductions of real ships, and (b) can be completed in reasonable time by a beginner. The Midwest canoe and small craft kits, in my opinion, are a big step in the right direction. So are the beginner kits from Bluejacket. But as a former hobby shop employee I can testify that the vast majority of those Continental plank-on-frame kits never get built - and the purchasers never come back to the hobby shop. That's my biggest beef about the Continental sailing ship kits. Though I don't have any statistical evidence to prove it (and I suspect such evidence would be virtually impossible to gather), I'm convinced that they drive far more people out of the hobby than they draw into it.

But to Trawlerman - good luck. She's a beautiful ship from a fascinating period, and it's a great hobby.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 5:50 PM
I cannot add anything to jtilley's post except to echo his feelings. Go with the Model Shipways Rattlesnake.

Al Blevins
  • Member since
    January 2005
Posted by ggatz on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 12:47 PM
I wish I could say I made that model!
The site belongs to a Japanese modeler ( click on the ' Home ' button at the bottom of the page for more great models ), so I think that accounts for the indecipherable text on the page.. It would be some font that is not translating for us...
To a dog, every day is Saturday. ' Roger Miller '
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 12:42 PM
John (if I may assume your name is John) weither I agree with your opinion or not I am glad to get it and it is well presented. People build models for a wide range of reasons, not the least of which is to produce a scale model of a real item. Ship, train, or whatever. Other reasons include something to pass the time, or to create a decoration for a den or family room. I agree that most of the kits should not represent themselves as "scale" models but on the other hand a structure in exact scale may not support or couple with another to work properly. It is a differance in materials as well as size.

I live on a recreational boat and have almost no room to work and certainly no room for a finished model so I give them away when I am done. I build them for entertainment and I buy them by size. Big Smile [:D]

I love the work and take a long time to get done because I am working on my dining table so I am not concerned too much with the accuracy of the kit. On the other hand if I am going to put in that much work I like to be able to point to the finished product and say with some degree of accuracy that it is a model of a certain ship.

With all that in mind I think I will go for the model shipways kit and see where it takes me.

Thank you for your valuable input. Smile [:)] And thanks to everyone else who contributed to this thread.

Mike AKA Trawlerman
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:51 AM
The model ggatz has referred us to is beautiful - proof that a good modeler can always build a good model. (On my computer the link took me to a bunch of fine pictures with garbled captions. I'm not clear whether the model is ggatz's own, or someone else's.) I do wonder, though, how much more difficult or time-consuming it would have been to build an identical model from scratch. It's obvious that the builder of the model in those pictures is fully capable of doing that.

I also echo ggatz's comments about the Harold Hahn plans and the Lumberyard "semi-kits." Harold Hahn is a first-rate gentleman, a superb artist, and a fine modeler. I haven't dealt with the Lumberyard myself, but it has an excellent reputation. This is a fine way to build a scale model.

Another analogy about those European kits occurs to me. Thousands - maybe millions - of people of all ages derive an enormous amount of pleasure from Lionel trains. I wouldn't dream of suggesting that folks shouldn't buy Lionel products. But let's face it: they don't look much like real trains. Neither do most of the products of those European ship kit manufacturers look much like real ships. (That Mamoli "H.M.S. Beagle" resembles the real H.M.S. Beagle considerably less than a Lionel box car resembles a real box car.) Of course it's possible to turn a Lionel box car into a scale model. Get a good set of plans and make the necessary changes to the car's dimensions. Scrape off the molded-in details and replace them with scratchbuilt parts. Take off the trucks and couplers and replace them with scale ones. Strip all the paint off and give the car a good, scale, airbrushed paint job. Apply a set of scale decals and some weathering, and you'll have a scale model of a box car. In view of the fact that you could have bought a perfectly good scale model of a box car in the first place (from Atlas, or one of the other serious model railroad companies), however, does such a project make much sense?

Granted - Mamoli kits in general don't drift as far from reality as Lionel trains do. But to my notion the principle is the same. The big difference seems to be that virtually every adult model railroader knows that Lionel products aren't scale models, whereas the ship kit companies apparently succeed in duping most of their customers.

The blood pressure is going up again. Thanks to ggatz for giving us a good look at fine model.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2005
Posted by ggatz on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 9:00 AM
Just to add another option, that is a bit pricey ( but not for what you get IMO )..

The Harold Hahn plans and timbering set from " The Lumberyard for model Shipwrights " ..
http://www.dlumberyard.com/shop/index.htm?c44.htm&1

Some photos of a model based on this kit..

http://www.dlumberyard.com/Hahn/rattlesnake.htm

Just an example of what can be accomplished with the Mamoli kit as a starting point..



More pics of this model here:
http://homepage3.nifty.com/modelshipbuilder/rattlesnake.htm

Having built the Mamoli kit, I can say that the modeler of the ship above used materials and resources not provided in the kit, but using the kit as is, and putting some effort into finish and fitting, one could make a respectable model.
I have no reason to believe the MS kit would be any worse as a basis, and no reason to spend $50 more for the Mamoli kit..



While I respect the spirit of John's disdain for a lot of the wood kits available, I think they can be a good starting point for a venture into the hobby, from a standpoint of skill developing.






To a dog, every day is Saturday. ' Roger Miller '
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 11:56 PM
Oh, dear. We've talked about this topic before in this forum, and I suspect regular participants are sick of reading my rantings about it. But I'll try to summarize my thoughts on the subject as briefly as I can.

First some caveats. I can't claim for an instant to have looked at every Continental European plank-on-bulkhead kit. Or even a sample from every manufacturer. I'm sure they vary in quality, and I'm sure the products of an individual company vary from one another. There may be some good Continental plank-on-bulkhead kits out there. But I have yet to see one that I'd consider worth taking home from the hobby shop.

The other point I want to emphasize in the beginning is that I'm not alone in my opinions. They're shared by a considerable number of other modelers who've been in the sailing ship game for a while. If my views seem strong, take a look at those of the late Charlie McDonald, former editor of the Nautical Research Journal. He wrote an article called "Piracy on the High C's: Those Much-Too-Expensive European Kits." It's on the Nautical Research Guild website.

My perception is that those manufacturers in general have some agenda other than scale modeling. They produce kits that only vaguely resemble real ships. The construction methods they employ frequently bear no resemblance to reality. (That double-planking system so many of them brag about, for instance, is utterly non-prototypical. It's designed to compensate for the fact that they haven't bothered to space the bulkheads carefully enough to support planks of scale dimensions.) The woods they supply are, in many cases, the sort that serious scale modelers reject, for the simple reason that they don't look like scale wood. (Mahogany, for instance, is a terrible wood for scale modeling. The grain is so coarse that a scale person would trip over it.) And why on earth would anybody make a deck of a sailing vessel out of a sheet of plywood? The surface of a deck, with rare exceptions, is a compound curve. It bulges upward in the center (camber) and curves vertically fore-and-aft (sheer). To force a piece of plywood into a compound curve is at best extremely difficult - and utterly pointless. Scratchbuilders quickly figure out that the easiest way to build a deck - not just the most accurate, but the EASIEST - is to lay it in the form of narrow planks.

The fittings in those kits, like so many other aspects of them, vary widely in quality, but most of the ones I've seen are pretty awful. They seem to have been designed by somebody interested in making things that look pretty, rather than scale reproductions. Many, for instance, boast about their "metalized" or "bronzed" fittings, as though that had something to do with scale fidelity. I even recall seeing one that bragged about the "stained glass" in the transom windows. (I have yet to hear of an actual ship with stained glass windows.)

I had an interesting experience once regarding such fittings. I walked into a hobby shop just as the proprietor was showing a customer the latest arrival: a pair of extremely expensive cast bronze (supposedly; I suspect they were plated white metal) trailboards for the Cutty Sark. I meekly suggested that the proportions of them were badly distorted (they in fact looked like caricatures of the real thing), that they were ludicrously out of scale, and that the decals in the Revell plastic kit did a better job of representing the real ship's trailboards. Both the shop proprietor and the other customer looked at me as though I'd uttered some sort of blasphemy.

The interesting aspect of that conversation was the venue: Maritime Models of Greenwich, a few hundred yards from the real Cutty Sark. The proprietor had to walk past the ship on his way to work every day.

Out of curiosity I just looked up the Cutty Sark on the Model Expo website. I found three Continental plank-on-bulkhead kits. Constructo, oddly, offers two. One, according to the catalog, is on 1/90 scale, is 32" long, and costs $250. The other is on 1/115 scale (how on earth do they pick those scales?), is 30" long, and costs $190. (Arithmetic makes the actual ship's length either 240' or 287' 6". Quite a discrepancy.) Both kits are described as having "traditional plank-on-bulkhead construction." The ads emphasize that the two woods used for the hull planking, walnut and lime, make a beautiful contrast. The third kit is from Mantua; it's (supposedly) on 1/78 scale, has a length of 45" (that's 292' 6" on the scale; how nice to have three options), and costs $450. The photo doesn't quite make it clear, but this kit seems to be similar in construction to the two Constructo ones in that the planking below the level of the main deck is a dark wood and the bulwarks above the maindeck are planked with a lighter wood, making a handsome contrast. Handsome indeed. But, as anybody who's either visited the Cutty Sark or glanced at a reasonable set of plans knows, her bulwarks are made of iron.

Then there was the catalog I once looked at (I think it was either Mamoli or Mantua) that was promoting the brass bow and stern ornaments of its new U.S.S. Constitution. (This was quite a few years ago, but I think the kit is still on the market.) The scale of the kit was given as 1/98. I thought that was a rather odd scale. Then I took a good look at the photos of the cast ornaments. (They were presented really luxuriously - and sold separately, in a velvet-lined wood box.) It was ludicrously obvious that they'd been cast from the pieces in the 1/96 Revell plastic Constitution kit. Brass castings shrink by 2 percent as they cool.

I can't tell how many of the horrors I see in these kits are perpetrated by the manufacturers and how many originate with the American distributors. I recall, for instance, reading of an Italian Constitution kit that "it's so accurate that it even reproduces the exact number of frames that are in the real ship." The ad included a photo of the model with the framing exposed. Anybody who'd been on board the Constitution could see that the statement about the framing was an outright lie.

Then there's the celebrated case of "H.M.S. Beagle." About thirty-five years ago Revell, in one of its more daring (but typical) scams, released a little plastic H.M.S. Beagle that, in fact, was a slightly revised version of the same company's H.M.S. Bounty. (The real Beagle actually resembled the real Bounty only in having a hull, a deck, and three masts.) Years later I happened to get a look at the plans of the "Beagle" kit from Mamoli. That kit also is a mirror image of the Bounty. It's perfectly obvious that the plans were based on the parts in the Revell kit - with a neatly-executed rigging diagram that has nothing whatever to do with the real ship. The Revell product originally cost $3.00; Model Expo sells the Italian one for $239.95. Woof.

Several manufacturers make balsa-and-tissue airplane kits that (sort of) represent real airplanes. They're extremely simplified, and their proportions are often considerably distorted in order to make them fly (though most of them really don't). Kids and uninitiated adults spent lots of money on those kits every year. Scarcely any of them get built, and serious scale airplane modelers regard them as jokes. Most European plank-on-bulkhead sailing ship kits (again, I'm sure there are exceptions) deserve to be treated about like Guillows and Comet balsa airplane kits.

I want to emphasize again that my opinions are personal, but far from unusual. You'll hear similar views - or worse - at any gathering of the Nautical Research Guild. I used to work in a maritime museum that held a fairly prestigious ship model competition every five years. The word in that competition was "don't bother entering anything based on a Continental plank-on-bulkhead kit. The judges won't look at it."

Most of the American companies seem to have sprung forth from a different set of ideas and ethics. Heaven knows they've made their share of mediocre kits over the decades, but they always seem to have been making a genuine effort to produce scale models. (I sometimes wonder if the people operating those Italian and Spanish companies have any idea what a scale ship model is.) The best offerings from Model Shipways, Bluejacket, and A.J. Fisher produce fine models - even if they aren't encrusted with "bronzed metal ornaments." I'm also impressed with what I've seen from the new British manufacturer CalderCraft. I haven't built any of that company's kits (partly because I can't afford them), but on the basis of their ads and the reviews they look to me like genuine scale models.

People build models for lots of reasons - which are entirely those people's business. Anybody who enjoys building those Continental kits - and paying extravagant amounts of money for them - has my blessing; it's not my place to pass judgment on what people do with their leisure time. But the vast majority of those kits, unless they're modified almost beyond recognition, do not produce what can reasonably be defined as scale models. And their combination of high prices, inaccuracy, absurd construction methods, and shoddy materials has, I'm afraid, driven far more people away from the hobby than they've attracted.

End of rant. Sorry to have taken up so much space with it.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 11:01 PM
Sorry about not getting back until now. Thanks for the opinions. I would like to know more about your feelings about european models jtilley, I have built a couple and kind of feel like it was a good thing they weren't my first one if you know what I mean. At that time there was not a lot of choice however. I have never built an American kit and don't really know what to expect. I know for a AL kit not to waste wood if you don't have another source. Corel is bad about that too, at least the one I built. (Ranger)

Mike AKA trawlerman
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, January 23, 2005 9:51 PM
I built a Rattlesnake from a Model Shipways kit many years ago - but that's not terribly relevant. Since those days the company has completely revised the kit. It used to have a solid hull; now it's plank-on-bulkhead. I have never built a Mamoli kit and have no inclination to do so.

I have looked at photos of the revised MS kit. It looks to me like a pretty good one - if perhaps not quite up to the standards of the firm's latest offerings. I'm a little troubled by one feature of it: the so-called "gunport frames." These, I believe, are metal castings designed to help the modeler get the gunports the right size and shape. In the pictures I've seen they look pretty conspicuous, and therefore hokey. I suspect they could be omitted. (Making gunports square and of the same size isn't really difficult, compared to many other tasks in building a wood ship model.

I haven't examined the Mamoli kit, but (as regular forum participants know) I generally have an extremely low opinion of that firm's products. I suppose it's possible that this particular kit is an exception, but continental European ship model kits in general are characterized by miserable (or non-existent) research, lousy plans, poor materials, irrational construction methods, and outrageous prices. Unless they're extensively modified they do not produce scale models. I've seen some nice models based on such kits, but far more often they drive people out of the hobby due to disappointment and discouragement.

My recommendation - with all the caveats already mentioned - is to go with the Model Shipways kit. But take my comments in the context of those from people who've actually had a good look at both.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 23, 2005 9:39 PM
I'm building the Mamoli kit and I am following Bob Hunt's practicum nothing to complain about see
http://www.lauckstreetshipyard.com/index.html
His photo CD's are of get help-.
I not associated with Bob but am a very satisfied customer
  • Member since
    November 2005
Rattlesnake vs. Rattlesnake
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 23, 2005 9:08 PM
Hello everyone, this is my first post and I have a question concerning which kit
to buy.
Mamoli and Model Shipways both make a rattlesnake kit and I would like to get one of them. The Model Shipways kit is considerably less expensive so I wonder about quality. I have heard good things about Mamoli in general but they are spendy.

Any opinion is welcome.Smile [:)]
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