SEARCH FINESCALE.COM

Enter keywords or a search phrase below:

Color on HMS Victoy?

2210 views
18 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Belgium
Posted by DanCooper on Monday, March 14, 2005 2:54 PM
I've red somewhere that the Yellow-black combination was a personal taste from Nelson and that only after Trafalgar those colors became popular with the Royal Navy captains (who had to buy the paint for their ships themselves). If this is true or myth, I don't know.

On the bench : Revell's 1/125 RV Calypso

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, March 14, 2005 2:20 PM
try HMS VICTORY home page they have greaat info on the ship colors everthing can't beat it
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, March 10, 2005 2:11 PM
Chris,

I've been around to visiting the Victory just recently in portsmith. If you'd like I can email some pics of her. Just let me know. My mail is tankbuster2005@yahoo.com.

Take care,
Tank
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, March 10, 2005 11:57 AM
I'm building the same kit right now, and after consulting with a guy who's built this model for clients, he suggested Floquils Reefer Yellow, mixed with a few drops of Floquils SF (Santa Fe) Yellow. The finish is very authentic looking and dries to a somewhat bright but semi-flat finish. The only hassle is that it takes 2 coats. Chuck
  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Friday, February 11, 2005 2:51 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by chrisstedt

Thanks for all the info. God love my wife. She told me last night that I must (and will) finish the USS Chesapeake before I even think of another kit. She has been looking at that ship everytime she goes into the basement for the past year.....
Thanks again.


Just a year??? I have a Ship of the Line that I started before we were married. The completed hull went with me from apartment to apartment in college and sat on a shelf in the past places we lived in. We have been married for 11 years. And yes, everytime she has my attention she asks "when are you going to finish that boat?"

Well, I put the lower masts into the tucks backwards and havn't had a clue how to remove them again without dismantling the ship. however, she doesn't understand what the commotion is about since to her it has sticks sticking up to put the sails on.

Ohhhh, sometimes its hard to live with the nautically challangedConfused [%-)]Banged Head [banghead]
Scott

  • Member since
    December 2014
Posted by bigjimslade on Friday, February 11, 2005 1:55 PM
The Model Master Acrylic that best matches victory is ORANGE OCRE.

There is a Yellow OCRE as well but it is too light.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 4, 2005 2:59 PM
Thanks for all the info. God love my wife. She told me last night that I must (and will) finish the USS Chesapeake before I even think of another kit. She has been looking at that ship everytime she goes into the basement for the past year.....
Thanks again.
  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Monterey Bay, CA
Posted by schoonerbumm on Tuesday, February 1, 2005 12:04 PM
"ochre" and "yellow ochre" were probably the most common colors used on ships. John Millar's "Early American Ships" has an interesting descriptionof the use of this paint. According to Mr. Millar, linseed oil was very common and readily available. Oil coated bare wood was the simplest treatment available. However, as the wood aged, it darkened... indicating an older, and potentially weaker ship. Ochre paint was used since it resembled newly oiled oak. A simple form of camouflage.

Yellow paint was used for "gilding" purposes and would be legitimate color for the gun strakes. I would use a "faded" yellow allowing for the effects of sun and scale.

A few years back, there was some rot in the Lady Washington's transom, requiring a substantial rework of the stern. You can see the effect of wood aging at:

http://ladywashington.org/ladypinch.jpg

Note the rust streaking from salt water on the chains. The paint is fresh in this photo.

Incidentally, in this photo, the Lady is in the first stages of a tack.... the rudder is over, the sails have stalled out, the fore course has been clewed up, the main topsail and topgallant are being braced through the wind to the starboard tack.

Also, check out the photo between of the "gun battle" between the Lynx and Lady on the main page (www.ladywashington.org) you will have to scroll down the page. But there is an excellent photo which not just shows an incredible view of a gun battle, but the effects of aging on sails. Tar gets transferred from the rigging, the sails get stained and faded... and there is the perpetual battle against the elements when the sails are furled.


Cheers

Alan

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." Benjamin Franklin

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Where the coyote howl, NH
Posted by djrost_2000 on Monday, January 31, 2005 5:05 PM
Chris,

Here's some book references and a pic link.

"HMS Victory: Her construction, career and restoration" by A.P. McGowan, John McKay (illustrator), Alan McGowan. 256 pages, ISBN: 1557503877

"The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships" by C. Nepean Longridge
283 pages ISBN: 0870210777

"The 100-Gun Ship Victory" by John McKay
ISBN: 0851777988

This link has a few good pics of the Victory:
http://cretu.com/victory/

I hope this helps,

Dave
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Where the coyote howl, NH
Posted by djrost_2000 on Monday, January 31, 2005 4:15 PM
Chris,

There is a Yahoo discussion group that deals with only HMS Victory modeling.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hmsvictorymodeling/

Many highly skilled model builders on this site.

Cheers,

Dave
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 30, 2005 11:30 PM
I have just finished reading a kit review of the Jotika kit of Victory and they went for the yellow ochre colour for the stripes. they also gave a colour mix for the red and yellow colours and i will post them if you like.
There should be a web site for HMS Victory with the relevent colours on it.
If you are making the kit to represent the ship as at Trafalgar note that the kit may be a bit different. The Victory went through several rebuildings.
1 As built
2 As at Trafalgar
3 Post Trafalgar
4 Probably several others!
Dai
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:29 PM
The Model Expo/Model Shipways acrylics are the ones I referred to in my post above. I've had mixed luck with them. Some of them (mainly the brown, yellow, and off-white shades) seem to work fine; rather thick as they come out of the jar, but nice to brush when thinned with water. (I never, or rarely, use an airbrush on sailing ships.) I've had problems with some of the others. The blue shades have a greasy, waxy consistency that I find almost impossible to work with. It's entirely possible that either I got some bad jars or I've just let them get too old.

I don't have a good hobby shop here in town, but the last time I went to see my old friend Dan at Denbigh Hobbies, in Newport News, Virginia, I discovered that Testor's had added some maritime colors to its acrylic range. I don't remember all the colors, but I think that, in addition to the modern navy colors (including the greys from the various Japanese navy yards) there were several sailing ship colors. As I recall, Testor's bought the Floquil brand a few years ago; Floquil used to have a range of maritime colors, and I think these Testor's paints may be a reincarnation of them. From what I could tell on the basis of looking at the bottles they looked pretty reasonable.

If the paint companies have decided to cater to us sailing ship nuts - great. But I do hope this branch of the hobby never gets as obsessed with so-called accuracy in paint colors as the aircraft and armor folks are. They really do carry the subject to extremes - which in my personal opinion aren't entirely relevant to scale modeling. Certainly not to sailing ship modeling.

Scottrc - I haven't dug deeply into the question of American War of 1812 colors, but I wouldn't take any paint chips as gospel. There certainly were no Federal Standard colors in those days; navy yards and ships' crews mixed paint, and it undoubtedly varied from ship to ship and from time to time.

I did have a short conversation once with Capt. Tyrone Martin, CO of the Constitution during the mid-1970s, when one of her major refurbishments took place. (He's also the author of an excellent book about the Constitution, A Most Fortunate Ship - which I imagine you've read. I regard him as one of the best authorities on the subject.) He was pretty emphatic that the Constitution had a white stripe early in the war (when she was commanded by Isaac Hull), and that it changed to yellow later - possibly to encourage confusion with the British frigates. The model in the Peabody-Essex Museum of Salem, which was presented by Capt. Hull, certainly has a white stripe (and dark green bulwark interiors, if I remember correctly).

I've never seen any reference to any official USN policy on painting during the sailing ship period. Another source I can recommend, though, (forgive me if I suggest something you've already consulted) is the book on the Constitution by Thomas Gilmer with illustrations by Tom Freeman and William Gilkerson. Both of those artists do a conscientious job of research. If I remember correctly, they give her unpainted sides during the Barbary Wars, a white stripe early in the War of 1812, and a yellow stripe during the latter part of the war.

That's about all I can offer on that topic. If you find some additional hard information, please do let us know.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 27, 2005 4:20 PM
Another question. You guys ever use the Model Expo - Model Shipways Historic paints on plastic? Any problem with the mix or coat? This Victory model will be the first Royal Navy plastic kit I've done so I'm just wondering?
Thanks again.
  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: United Kingdom
Posted by Beau Mansfield on Thursday, January 27, 2005 3:51 PM
I have a lot of close up pictures of the HMS Victory which I took last year when I went to the naval Dockyard in Portsmouth.

I have images of the sides and close up of the coat of arms and figurehead on the bow and of the carvings on the stern.
Unfortunitly I did not get enought time to go on board as I was on board the HMS Warrior most of the day, which is the largest Iron warship ever built.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 27, 2005 3:09 PM
As always, thanks for the help. I'll let you guys know how it comes out.
Chris
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, January 27, 2005 9:57 AM
Scottrc - Right on. I have a great deal of respect for the aircraft and armor modelers - and, for that matter, the modern warship modelers - and their erudite discussions of the differences between RLM Lichtgrau, RAF Sky Grey, and U.S. Haze Grey. I do think some aircraft, tank, and armor modelers get a bit obsessed with the subject; I'm reluctant to believe the actual colors were ever defined as precisely as some modelers want to believe. I also believe fervently that the choice of colors for a scale model can quite legitimately involve considerations other than precisely matching the colors of the prototype. Fortunately, though, in "period ship modeling" we don't have to worry about such things. There are no "official" colors. May it stay that way.

Some time ago I bought a batch of the acrylic paints sold by Model Shipways. So far as I know, those are about the only ones mixed specifically for sailing ships. (Floquil made some a long time ago, but they've been discontinued. Humbrol makes a few - "deck tan," for instance - but I haven't seen them lately in any of the hobby shops I frequent.) I've had mixed luck with those Model Shipways paints; some of them work fine, while others have a waxy, translucent consistency that I just can't live with. (The fact that I've had them for so long may be the reason.) But I find the colors in general pretty believable. If anybody insists on letting a manufacturer pick the colors, I guess that's a reasonable place to start. But Olde Phogey non-conformists like me will continue picking our colors ourselves.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Thursday, January 27, 2005 8:09 AM
Chris, I'm in the process of trying to figure the color of yellow the Americans used during 1812. I have paint chips now that show it from being a dark, sunset red, to a bright, sunshine yellow. However, I am finding out that most of the ships in this period were not painted, but were varnished so their colors would be the type of wood (many types of oak based on where the ship was built) that was used for the outer construction.

Jtillys recommendations are to the point. We need to use some artistic license here. Far as the color of ochre, I have not found any of the model enamels to match what I feel is close to what the period paintings, and descriptions, depict. So, like Prof. Tilly, I am mixing my own colors. I prefer acrylics and oils over enamels since they seem to blend and mix much better, and oils after a varnish wash seem to give the model a little more body and a sense of age.

I apologize that we cannot be more exact in our recommendation, but that is why we build this ships, because they give us a chance to be a little more creative, and expressive, than the average plane, tank, car, or modern warship.

Scott

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 8:25 PM
There's plenty of room for personal taste here. In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries there were no federal standard colors, or any such thing. I suspect the color of every ship was a little different.

In general terms I would suggest a yellow ochre - that is, a yellow with a generous dose of brown in it. That's consistent with what we know about how such paints were made. To my knowledge the only company that makes paints in colors designed for sailing ship models is Model Shipways (available through the ModelExpo website). But this game isn't played by the same rules that affect airplane and armor modelers. There's quite a bit of room for personal taste.

Within my lifetime the Victory has been repainted several times. The first time I saw her, in 1978 (I think), the "yellow" paint on her sides was an extremely dark, orange-ish color. The last time I went on board her, in 1992 (sheez, time flies when you're getting old), it looked to me like the stripes had been repainted in a lighter shade that, to my eye, looked considerably more believable.

I'd suggest looking at some old master paintings to get a feel for what she ought to look like (making due allowance for dirt and retouching, and then applying some personal taste. My approach is to mix a color I like (in a large quantity, in a jar with a tight-fitting lid, so I don't run out later). Failing that, I get a firm notion in my head of the color I want, pay a visit to a well-equipped hobby shop, and spend some time ruminating on the armor, airplane, and railroad colors. Forget the labels (Union Pacific Yellow, Panzer Yellow, etc.) and concentrate on what looks right.

Incidentally, there's plenty of evidence that most American frigates of the War of 1812 had yellow stripes too. The Constitution, it's been established pretty firmly, had a white stripe for part of the war (including her battle with the Guerriere), but a yellow one later.

One of the great things about this phase of the hobby is the amount of room it allows for judgment and personal taste. When it comes to colors of sailing vessels my personal approach is - find out what's to be found out, establish some parameters of what's believably realistic, and then do what looks best. Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Color on HMS Victoy?
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 3:43 PM
Hello all,
I've been away for a bit and it is showing. I sat down last night to work on the Hellar HMS Victory kit. The Chesapeake is coming along great, I just need a break from the standing rigging.
Can you find folks give me some advice on the proper color for the yellow along the side of the ship. My notes have it down as a light bluff but so far I've been unhappy with the way it's turned out. Am I missing something here? Maybe there is a PollyScale paint that is on the shelf that might work?
Please help. Now I remember how I felt during my first kit. LOSTDead [xx(]
As always, thanks for all the help.
JOIN OUR COMMUNITY!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

SEARCH FORUMS
FREE NEWSLETTER
By signing up you may also receive reader surveys and occasional special offers. We do not sell, rent or trade our email lists. View our Privacy Policy.