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Hull-painting „Le Superbe“ / shroud assembly

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  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Monterey Bay, CA
Posted by schoonerbumm on Friday, March 11, 2005 7:38 PM
The booklet is from the last set of plans on the second page of the "Bâtiments anciens" on the ANCRE site. The booklet is accompanied by a single 46 in. X 35 in. sheet with multiple views of the ship exterior, lines, deck plan, profile plan of rigging, plan view of each mast with running rigging and an assortment of details (anchors, tops, guns, boats, etc.) The plan sheet is at the same scale of the Heller model (1/150) so everything is (for the most part) exact size for the model. The plans show the running rigging and give general pin rail locations. The Heller plans only provide standing riging.

The downside is that at 1/150 scale, the plans do not show planking detail. Heller's surface finish sucks. Their wood grain effects are the nautical equivalent of the Revell big rivets. The goal appears to have been to replicate a wooden ship MODEL, not a wooden ship. I'd recommend sanding down the exterior and decking wood grain finish and using an engraving tool and label tape to provide exterior planking (there is no exterior planking detail on the model). The decks are planked, but with the plank ends neatly in a line. I'd get rid of the wood grain and fill the plank ends and rescribe. (At least the plank lines are engraved - albeit, a scale sailor would probably sink his leg to the knee). I'd also sand down the copper plates a bit to reduce their "profile" (looks like the Yellow Brick Road out of the box).

Also, the hull thickness (actually thinness) is not accurate. Lining the gun ports with styrene strips helps. You can get the correct thickness from the "Superbe" plans.

I'd recommend getting Volume 2 of Boudriot's "74 Gun Ship" if you are seriously interested in the layout of the 74 or Napoleanic Naval Combat in general. It provides most of the hull details, guns, galleries, boats, fire fighting equuipment, etc. (plus planking details). I think that this kit offers potenial for further detailing 'tween and above decks with some Evergreen and photo etch. ( The other volumes are great, but in my opinion, this volume is the most valuable. (Volume 1 is primarily about Naval Adminstration and ship hull construction - Volume three focused on Rigging (you'll have more than you want in the "Superbe" plans) and volume 4 is about life aboard and operational aspects) The main downside with a single, "middle" volume is that you don't get a full table of contents. It sounds expensive at 100 euros, but on a $/hour basis I have gotten more use out of this volume than most of my other books. If you are interested in this period it is a must have.

In lieu of Volume 3, I'd use the "Superbe" plans and in lieu of volume 4, I think Harland's "Seamanship in the Age of Sail" is a much better value and more general resource. Volume 1 is necessary if you want to build a plank on frame model or are interested in 18th century shipbuilding technology.

TRAVEL TIP

When you go to Musee Marine, take a flashlight... some Parisian artistic type decided that dramatic lighting was more important than model details. If you want a good look at the sailing models, you'll have to bring your own light (at least you did in 2003)

Cheers

Alan

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." Benjamin Franklin

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, March 11, 2005 1:34 PM
I can recommend anything Rob Gardiner has written. He's a fine scholar and a true gentleman. That series of Chatham Pictorial Histories on eighteenth- and early-nineteenth-century naval warfare is excellent. I just wish they'd included some color illustrations - even if that made the price go up a little.

The Conway's History of the Ship series is outstanding - an ideal start for a serious library on the history of nautical technology. Mr. Gardiner was the "general editor" of that series. Each volume has its own editor, and each chapter has a different author. Collectively they represent the current state of scholarly thinking about the whole topic. The volume called The Age of the Galley is especially important, in that it's the first major comprehensive study of that topic to appear in about fifty years. It contains some major reinterpretations. For example, it demolishes the myth of the emaciated, exhausted galley slave toiling endlessly at his oar deep in the bowels of the ship. (The replica trireme built in Greece a few years ago established that pulling one of those oars for more than a few minutes requires a genuine athlete in excellent physical shape. And the oarsmen have to be out in the open air; if they aren't their perspiration can't evaporate and they pass out.)

Good news on the financial front: the Conway's History of the Ship volumes have just appeared in paperback, at about half the price of the hardbound edition. I recommend them to anybody with a serious interest in the subject.

I sure wish somebody would publish a paperback edition of Boudriot's books - but I don't think that's likely. I also wish I'd bought the fourth volume of The 74-Gun Ship when I had the chance.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, March 11, 2005 4:16 AM
Hello all,

thanks for that massive input – this place is really a great source for information! scottrc is right when he says „part of the fun of doing period sailing ships is doing the research“, but one has to know where to start.

jtilley, thanks for your information about the Boudriot books – seems like they can still be ordered here (http://www.ancre.fr/index-e.htm) with a price tag of 400€ for all four volumes, and there are several used ones available (see www.abebooks.com). For my personal library that’s probably a bit too much Blush [:I] but I will see if I can find a copy in a public library.

Speaking of my personal library: following scottrc’s hint on the Gardiner books, I found that he (Gardiner, not scottrc Wink [;)]) wrote a series of books about that era (Chatham/Caxton Pictorial History, Conway’s History of the Ship etc.). Are those a recommendation (and from jtilleys response I feel they are)?

schoonerbumm, is your booklet the one that is offered here (http://www.amis-musee-marine.net/pages/Monographies.htm) ? If so, I will have the chance to pick up my very own copy quite soon, since I will visit Paris in June - hey, with 18€ this is considerably cheaper than the 50$ at Taubman (no offense intended). Anyway, I would really like to take a look at this color-scheme, I just could not figure out how to send you an e-mail. So I simply give out mine (joerg_schumbert@yahoo.de). Maybe it is easier to scan and send by e-mail than using the snail mail, since you would have to send it to Europe?

Shrouds and ratlines: I will give all your recommendations a try – once again, these will be my first “hand-made” ones (yes, I used the plastic ones on ConstitutionDisapprove [V] ).

Jörg
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Thursday, March 10, 2005 7:59 PM
Another way of doing Ratlines.I always do my Shrouds on the ship.I have not had good luck with Hellers loom or the commercial one you can get from Micro Mart and others.After the Shrouds are on the ship.I use very fine wire for Ratlines . I apply them with very thin CA glue.By using thin wire you can make it sag like Ratlines by using a pencil or other objects to push on them.Then because Ratlines had Tar on them and were mostly black. I go back and touch them up with black paint. I find ths works pretty good on these smaller scales.
Rod
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, March 10, 2005 7:00 PM
Now that Schoonerbum has shaken my senile memory loose, I think those Musee de la Marine plans of the Superbe are available through Taubman Plans Service (www.taubmansonline.com). They're probably not cheap - but considerably less expensive than the Boudriot books.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Monterey Bay, CA
Posted by schoonerbumm on Thursday, March 10, 2005 12:36 PM
The "Association de Amis des Musees de la Marine" published a set of plans of "Le Superbe" with a 16 page booklet in 1967. An entire page of the booklet is dedicated to "couleurs".

E-mail me your snail mail address and I'll shoot you a photocopy of the colors page. It's in french, so you'll have to run sections of text through a translator on the net, if you don't have one on your computer. I have a copy of Paasch's English/French marine dictionary from 1894. If you will do the basic translation, I'll research the marine terms that the translator can't handle.

I'd suggest posting the completed list on this forum when complete.

Cheers

Alan

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." Benjamin Franklin

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 1:17 PM
The two references rcboater mentioned are excellent. The definitive source on French ships of the line, however, is a set of four volumes by Jean Boudriot collectively titled Le Vaisseau de 74 Canons. It's available in an English translation by David Roberts.

The Boudriot books are classics. He reconstructs a typical French ship of the line in every conceivable detail, and explains how every part of it works. The first volume covers the design process and hull construction. The second deals with the guns, deck fixtures, and fittings, and the third with the spars, sails, and rigging. The fourth volume is a wonderful discussion of life on board the ship, and the organization of the French Navy. All four are illustrated with Boudriot's own drawings - hundreds of them. His drawings are among the most precise, and aesthetically beautiful, I've ever seen. Boudriot, who passed away a few years ago, was a master of the dying art of drafting.

Now the bad news. The books have been out of print for years, and when they were in print they were expensive. (I bought the first three volumes about 25 years ago for $75.00 apiece. I never mustered up the funds for the fourth one.) Used copies are scarce and even more expensive. But if you can locate a copy of any Boudriot book (he wrote several others on various French sailing warship types) in a library, or perhaps via the Inter-Library Loan service, it's a priceless source of information on model building.

I haven't looked at the Heller Superbe for a long time, but as I remember it's a reasonably good kit. As a matter of fact I think I reviewed it for a British magazine a long, long time ago. As I recall its biggest problems were a lack of deck camber and a failure to indicate the edges of the hull planks. (My memory may be playing a trick on me here, but I think I remember commenting that the hull looked like it had been chopped out of one enormous log.) And the instructions, like those of so many Heller kits, were awful. I hope they've replaced the rigging diagrams, which were utterly irrational.

I'm no expert on French color schemes, and I don't have the Boudriot volume in front of me, but I agree that the broad gold stripe on the hull is nonsense. I think in general French warships were painted about like British ones were: unpainted, oiled hull planking, black wales (the thicker belts of planking near and above the waterline), red inboard works, and gold or yellow carved decorations. I'm having trouble remembering the colors Boudriot suggests for the masts and spars. When I get home this evening I'll try to remember to get the Boudriot book down and do another post.

I do remember that Boudriot's ship has a copper-sheathed bottom. Copper sheathing was introduced at about the time of the American Revolution. A ship of that period, therefore, might or might not have a copper bottom.

Rcboater's suggestion for rigging ratlines will work. I'll take the liberty, thogh, of suggesting another approach. The scale of 1/150 is a little small to rig ratlines to scale, but there's a pretty good substitute. Rig the shrouds first. They'll be pretty thick; the lower shrouds are among the heaviest lines in a ship. Then get get a spool of the thinnest thread you can find (try a sewing store, or a sporting goods store that carries fly-tying supplies), and a small, sharp needle. Cut a piece of thin, white cardboard (file card stock, for instance) to fit between the channel (where the bottoms of the shrouds are fastened to the hull) and the underside of the top (where their tops are secured). On that paper draw a series of straight pencil lines, about 14 scale inches apart. (On 1/150 scale that's about 1/16". If that's uncomfortably tight, apply the IFF: International Fudge Factor.) Place the card with the lines on it behind the shrouds. The lines indicate the spacing for the ratlines. Thread a length of the fine thread into the needle, and shove the needle through the first shroud where the first ratline is supposed to go. (If you're right handed, you'll probably find it easier to work from right to left.) Shove the needle through each shroud in turn.

At first that may seem extremely difficult, but give your fingers a chance to get used to it. You'll probably find that rigging that first ratline takes ten minutes or so. The second will take six or seven, and by the time you're done you'll be rigging at least one ratline per minute.

When you're finished, put a tiny drop of white glue at the spot where each ratline intersects the first and last shrouds. Let the glue dry thoroughly, then (this is the most nerve-wracking part) trim off the excess thread on each end. Use either a razor blade or a pair of extremely sharp, small scissors - and be careful not to cut any of the shrouds. If you do, you have to start over.

That may sound difficult, but once you get the hang of it it's not so bad. And ratlines rigged this way will look almost as good as if they were tied individually.

There are several possible explanations for rigging going slack. The most likely is that the thread is reacting to changes in humidity. If that's the case, the answer is to give each line a thin coat of beeswax. Sewing stores sell it in cakes, contained in nice little plastic holders with slots in them. Get in the habit of running each piece of thread through the groove in the beeswax holder. The wax also will smooth out any fuzziness in the thread.

Hope this helps a little. Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Derry, New Hampshire, USA
Posted by rcboater on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 12:46 PM
A standard practice in the wooden ship modeling hobby is to treat your thread with beeswax. At the fabric store, you can buy a little cake of beeswax in a plastic holder. You simple pull your thread through the wax- and then "set" the wax with some heat. (When I built my Revell Flying cloud, I used a hot lightbulb. I woudld simply run the waxed thread over the bulb- the wax melts and soaks in to the thread.

Beeswax does two things for the thread- it helps to eliminate the "fuzzies" -- those stray fibers that stick out from the thread in a very un-scale-like manner. Also, it gives the thread some resistance to changes in humidty.

For more info, do a web search on Beeswax and ship models...

Webmaster, Marine Modelers Club of New England

www.marinemodelers.org

 

  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 12:16 PM
Hi Jorg,

Painting period sailing ships can be a challenge when using the guidlines set in the instructions. I prefer to use pictorial references, and a little artistic license when painting. French ships were a little more colorful than the British. The ships were known to have gunstripes of burgandy, blue, and green which were patriotic colors. Gold guilding was used by captains to identify their wealth so a ship of LeSuperbs size would possibly have the strakes and bumpers guilded with gold.

The device you are refering to is the rigging loom or jig. I have used Hellers from time to time but have built my own since I have found the Heller ones to be a bit off. See the book "How to Build Plastic Ship Model" by Les Wilkens for detials on building a jig. For the Revell kits, I take the kits shrouds, which are a bit thin and wirey, and use them as a pattern to make new ones from cotton thread. I rig them by using a bead loom, the device that beadmakers use to make bracelets and such.

I lay out the shroud in its pattern and tie the ends off on the frame, then spray the shroud with diluted quilters glue and distilled water. The quilters glue will form a good bond on the cotton thread, and the moisture will cause the cotton to shrink thus making the shroud tighter. I then finish the shroud with a light coat of clear laquer to protect it from humidity and dust.

Two books that I have that kinda give a feel towards French warships at this time are:

Warships of the Napoleonic Era: Robert Gardiner: ISBN 155750962X

Navies and the American Revolution 1775-1783 (Chatham Pictorial Histories)
by National Maritime Museum, Robert Gardiner (Editor) (Hardcover - March 1, 1997)

There are thousands of references out there. Part of the fun of doing period sailing ships is doing the research.

Scott

  • Member since
    November 2005
Hull-painting „Le Superbe“ / shroud assembly
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 8:45 AM
Hello all,

I just started my new project, a 1/150 Heller Le Superbe. The Heller instructions for the painting are not very detailed - I guess I will come up with more questions on that issue later - and today it’s about the hull. Heller gives only the following informations
a) for the interior: red (60)
b) for the exterior: dark wood (98), bronce (12) for the coppered part, light wood (63) for the gunports, and gold (16) for ?pre-painted?, what seems to be a stripe underneath the gunports to separate the two browns.

The Heller numbers seem to match with Humbrol (12 copper, 98 matt chocolate, 63 matt sand and 60 matt scarlet). Can anybody give a comment on the accuracy of that (this is the 1785 Superbe)? I really don’t like the idea of those golden stripes…

I am also thankful for any book tip about the French navy of that time.

Next question: Those of you who build a Heller-kit before (Victory?) might know the “mechanism for making shrouds of real thread”, so maybe you can give me some tips how to prevent mistakes. Instructions say “spread glue, diluted with trichlorethylene” to fix the shroud – is there anything else I might use?

And just one more question: how do I keep the ropes of the rigging strained? When I build the Constitution, most of the lines started to hang down after a while – how can I fix that? Glue???

Thanks in advance for your help!

Jörg (aka landschrabbler)
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