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Lindberg's Jolly Roger

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  • Member since
    December 2002
Lindberg's Jolly Roger
Posted by lenroberto on Monday, April 11, 2005 12:25 PM
Hello friends-

I picked this kit up over the weekend...I remember reading somewhere- probably on this fne forum, that this kit can be built as another ship or it represents another type of ship quite nicely.

Can anyone enlighten me as to what can be done with this kit? I don't really care to do a "pirate" ship.

Any help appreciated thanks.

PS- also picked up Heller La Sirene and Royal Louis kits!

-Len
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, April 11, 2005 12:46 PM
The Lindberg "Jolly Roger" is a reboxing of the same company's French frigate La Flore. It was originally issued in the late sixties, and by the standards of that day isn't a bad kit. It scored over the Revell and Airfix products of the day by having a full-length, full-width gundeck, with individual parts for the gun barrels and carriages. I don't know whether the piratical incarnation had the same parts for the "shrouds and ratlines" as the original, but the original ones were marginally better than the dreadful ones Revell and Airfix were making. The Lindberg "shrouds and ratlines" were molded in flexible plastic, which was supposed to stretch a little when installed.

Several modelers have used this kit as the bases for models of H.M.S. Surprise, from the Patrick O'Brian novels and the movie "Master and Commander." That makes sense. The fictitious Surprise was French-built, and the date is about right.

At about the same time Lindberg brought out the Wappen von Hamburg, an late-seventeenth-century German ship of the line. (I think both kits may have been European in origin; I'm not sure about that. That kit was most recently seen under the label "Captain Kidd Pirate Ship" (AAAAARRRGGGGHHHH!!!). It's also worth seeking out.

Good plans for both La Flore and the Wappen von Hamburg, by the way, are available from Taubman Plans Service (www.taubmansonline.com).

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by lenroberto on Monday, April 11, 2005 12:53 PM
Thanks John- much appreciated!

-Len
  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Monday, April 11, 2005 1:02 PM
I've built both the "Jolly Roger" and the Royal Louis. Maybe I'm warped in the mind, but the Royal Louis and the Phoenix both turned out to be my favorite Heller kits to build.

The "Jolly Roger", boy I hate calling it that, will need to have the upper masts and spars replaced with wood or stonger plastic. The slightest amoung of pressure causes the kit ones to bend something terrible. Also, much of the deck details such as the taff rails and capstans are grossly out of scale. If a modeler doesn't mind doing some scratch work and basically uses just the hull and deck, they can have a very accurate French or British 5th rate.

Scott

  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by lenroberto on Monday, April 11, 2005 1:25 PM
thanks Scott! will take your advice...

-Len
  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Monterey Bay, CA
Posted by schoonerbumm on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 1:53 AM
As Prof. Tilley mentioned, the "Jolly Roger" is supposed to represent "La Flore", an 18th century frigate. The kit is patterned after an 18th century model in the Musee de Marine in Paris. The plans available from Taubman are the Musee de Marine set. John F Kennedy reputedly had a model of this ship in his Office in the White House, due to the "history", now believed to apocryphal, that "La Flore" was built by the Americans and presented to France as a gift. It is now believed that she was a design exercise, and was never actually built. The Musee de Marine plans provide a lively, but unfortunately, mythical narrative of "La Flore's" history (in french, of course).

The "La Flore" is an "odd bird", with proportions and hull form uncharacteristic of the American Revolution. with a Length/Beam of over 4.3 ( vs. the norm of 3.6 to 3.9 for the period - the American "Confederacy" was unusual with a L/B of 4.18) ) and exagerated deadrise and entrance and run characteristic of a baltimore clipper (if she sailed with this hull, she might have been fast in light airs, but wet, crank, and miserable to serve on). She was pierced for 15 guns/side, as opposed to "norm" of 12-13 ports. With a hull form that could be considered "modern" for the war of 1812, she retained a "beakhead bulkhead" which was beginning to disappear before the American Revolution. She also only has two quarter-gallery windows, which was unusual for frigates past the Seven Years War.

Anyway, what this means is... if you want a representative sloop or small frigate for the
period 1770-1790, significant scratch building will be required. Unfortunately, aside from planking or carving a hull, this is the only game in town at this scale (1/133 to 1/44th, depending on which part of the model you measure.... such is life with plastic sailing ships). If you can get ahold of Robert Gardiner's "The First Frigates", you'll have all the info you'll ever need to do a conversion.

The "Jolly Roger" hull has a constant section between the 4th and 7th guns ports (counting from the bow). Sectioning the hull to remove the 5th and 6th ports will provide a L/B of 3.8, and the normal 13 ports. Filling and reinforcement of the joint is simple to accomplish.

Of course, this means that mast & channel placement changes, mast and yard dimensions change, and deck and hull furniture will change...., etc..... You can get as deep into this project as you want.

As was mentioned by one of the other respondents, the scale is mixed on the kit parts. The guns scale at ~ 6pdr, vs. 8 pdr (or 9 pdr brit) or 12 pdr. guns which would have been used on a frigate. Deck furniture is uneven in quality. Even though the molded shroud/deadeye/chains, are an improvement over the Revell ratlines in some respects, they are seriously inconsistent in scale and should be replaced. Hull planking (raised lines) detail is horrible and needs scraping. Like all small plastic sailing ships, the masts are too compliant and need carefull handling or replacement with wood or wire.

An of course we get the latest in 1960's model tech... vacu-formed sails.

This kit needs TLC, but can result in a good model.

Regards

Alan

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." Benjamin Franklin

  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 7:36 AM
Very interesting information Schoonerbumm.Big Smile [:D]

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