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Revells' Viking ship?

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  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Revells' Viking ship?
Posted by Big Jake on Monday, April 25, 2005 6:10 AM
Has anyone built this version of a viking ship? I see a few on eBay and was thinking of getting it for the collection. The prow piece looks better and more historical acurate than the Heller "Dragon Head" but the overal ship look kinda squat. Also, it looks like I will have to modify the rigging. The forestays did not wrap around the prow piece like they show, I think?


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4248&item=5968977238

Jake

 

 

  • Member since
    January 2005
Posted by ggatz on Monday, April 25, 2005 12:53 PM
I'm not sure if it clears up your question, but there was a lot of discussion about Viking ship models in this thread..

http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/forum/topic.asp?page=1&TOPIC_ID=32944

Look down the page a bit for the 2nd post by " jtilley "

http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=32944&REPLY_ID=329930#329930


There is quite a bit of discussion that follows regarding the authenticity of various kits..
To a dog, every day is Saturday. ' Roger Miller '
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, April 25, 2005 1:10 PM
To reiterate the points I made in those earlier posts - in my opinion this old Revell kit is the best scale model of a Viking ship that's been produced in plastic. It apparently was based on the full-size replica of the Gokstad Ship that's in Lincoln Park, Chicago. It's a simple model, but the basic shape is accurate and, if memory serves, the "wood grain" engraved in the planks is excellent. The bow and stern ornaments are hypothetical, but do seem to be based on Norse tradition. (The prow and stern of the real Gokstad Ship projected into a different, more acidic layer of soil, and got eaten away long before the ship was excavated.)

If you want to build a plastic model of a Viking ship, this one, in my opinion, is the place to start.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Monday, April 25, 2005 4:55 PM
I went ahead and added it to the collection, thanks for the headsup, and interest.

Jake

 

 

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Louisville, KY.
Posted by Cosmic J on Wednesday, November 17, 2010 3:41 PM

Resurecting an old thread - I found this kit at Hobby Lobby yesterday for around $20, and since I had a 40% off coupon I picked it up. I have to say, I am in no way disappointed. The moldings are clean and flash free, the wood grain looks good, and it's not terribly complicated. I think I'm gonna enjoy building it.

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Wednesday, November 17, 2010 6:31 PM

Excellent model.

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Atlanta, Ga.
Posted by MrSquid2U on Wednesday, November 17, 2010 6:44 PM

Dangit!

 

You not only did a necropost but I've got a Hobby Lobby coupon!

 

Must resist, must resist.......

 

Boo Hoo.

       

 

  • Member since
    February 2009
  • From: Klaipeda, Lithuania, Europe
Posted by Wojszwillo on Thursday, November 18, 2010 3:54 PM

Emhar's Gokstad kit + Emhar's Viking Oarsmen kit is better choice than Revell's, if You can do some things from scratch (riging parts).

If You will make the kit "as out of the box" Revell's kit is the best for You. But one minus to this kit - "wood grain" is overscaled very much in Revell's kit. Of course, You can sand this "piece of art" with sandpaper :-).

Personally i preffer Emhar's kit.

http://www.modellmarine.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1823:emhar-gokstadschiff-172&catid=264:emh

http://www.modellmarine.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1829:emhar-viking-oarsmen-9th-10th-century&catid=264:emh

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, November 18, 2010 5:13 PM

I have to disagree slightly with Wojswillo.  In my opinion both Emhar and Revell versions have a good deal to recommend them.

I've built the Revell kit.  I haven't actually had my hands on the Emhar version, but I've studied photos of it carefully and studied copies of the instructions.  In my opinion they're both excellent kits - and I don't say that sort of thing often.

The major differences: 

1.  Both are excellent representations of the Gokstad Ship.  Revell's is a little larger.  (The scale stated on the box, 1/50, is incorrect; the model scales out to about 1/64.  Emhar lists the scale of its kit as 1/72; I have no reason to think that isn't right.)

2.  Revell's mold-makers did indeed make an effort to represent the grain of the wood.  In my opinion they did an excellent job of it.  The texture of the "wood grain" is not just an arbitrary collection of scratches (as is typical on Heller kits), but a remarkably realistic, three-dimensional representation of the texture of the real oak and pine.  The surfaces of the Emhar parts, by contrast, are smooth.  Which of those approaches is "better" is, in my opinion, a decision for the individual modeler to make.

3.  The layout of the hull and deck planks in the Revell kit is remarkably accurate.  (I base that statement on comparison between the kit and the very detailed drawings in the book The Viking Ships:  Their Ancestry and Evolution, by A.W. Brogger and Haaken Shetelig.)  The deck planks, in the real ship, are simple pine boards laid in the rabbets of the deck beams.  They probably got moved around quite a bit from time to time, but Revell shows them exactly as Brogger's and Shetelig's drawings do.  The layout of the hull planks at the kit's bow and stern, where there's a little variation in the widths of the planks as they taper, also matches the drawings precisely.

On the other hand, Revell's designers missed a couple of points about the hull planks:  there are no butt joints (easily fixed), and the "fluted" groove along the edge of each plank is missing.

I'm not sure whether Emhar got any of those details better than Revell did.  I doubt it.

4.  A few small pieces are missing from Revell's hull - most notably the wedge-shaped pieces with "scalloped" bottoms that stretch between the port and starboard gunwales at the bow and stern.  I don't know whether Emhar reproduced those parts or not.

5.  Emhar included some structural components of the hull below the level of the deck.  Revell doesn't - but unless some of the deck planks are omitted, those parts are invisible anyway.

6.  Revell didn't do such a good job with the knees that sit on top of the deck beams, connecting them to the bulwarks.  (The knees are represented by undersized shapes, molded integrally with the deck and the hull halves.)  I found it fairly easy, though, to build up the knees, using Miliput epoxy putty.  I think Emhar may have done better with these parts; I'm not sure.

7.  Both companies made an effort to represent a "dragon's head and tail" at the bow and stern.  (The stem- and sternposts of the Gokstad Ship projected into a more acidic layer of dirt in the burial mound, and rotted away long before the ship was excavated.)  Both designers made use of other Norse artifacts for inspiration, but I personally don't care for either of them.  (I left the "head and tail" off my model, and sliced off the stem and stern as those of the real ship are today.)

8.  The sail decal currently being packaged with the Revell kit is an utter abomination.  (It looks like a primitive caricature of the typical public perception of a Viking - complete with horned helmet.  One of the first things one learns when studying Norse culture is that the horned helmet has nothing to do with it.  Wagner operas yes; Vikings no.)  The original, American release of the kit had a much more believable falcon design on the sail.

I have the impression that in the U.S., at the moment, the Revell kit is easier to find than the Emhar one.  The opposite may well be the case in other countries.  If you want to build an accurate model of a Norse ship, I don't think you'll be dissatisfied with either kit.  Both have the potential to be turned into fine scale models.  (How often do plastic sailing ship enthusiasts have the luxury of choosing between two good kits that represent the same subject?)  When I started mine, the Emhar kit wasn't available.  If I were doing the project again I'm honestly not sure which kit I would choose.  But I certainly don't regret having built the Revell one. 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2009
  • From: Klaipeda, Lithuania, Europe
Posted by Wojszwillo on Saturday, November 20, 2010 5:48 AM

Proff. Tilley, You wrote right things.

I want to add only one thing - at scale 1/50 or 1/64 detail, that is 0,2 mm thick (or 0,00787'') on scale model, represents 10 mm (0,394'') or 12,8 mm (0,504'') detail on "real ship". Wood grain on Revell models is represented on about 0,2 mm thick. And here is the question - can You imagine a 10 or 12,8 mm wood "garden-beds" on real wooden ship's deck etc?

I do not.

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Saturday, November 20, 2010 8:15 AM

Whoa! Talk about a blast from the past.  This thread is from before Katrina, and I don't even have the model any more, BUt It did sail right out of the window on the hight tide.

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:27 AM

Wojszwillo

Proff. Tilley, You wrote right things.

I want to add only one thing - at scale 1/50 or 1/64 detail, that is 0,2 mm thick (or 0,00787'') on scale model, represents 10 mm (0,394'') or 12,8 mm (0,504'') detail on "real ship". Wood grain on Revell models is represented on about 0,2 mm thick. And here is the question - can You imagine a 10 or 12,8 mm wood "garden-beds" on real wooden ship's deck etc?

I do not.

I don't think this point is worth getting into an ugly argument.  But I will make a few points that, I think, are relevant and worth discussing.

First - the depth of the "wood grain" engraving on the Revell parts varies quite a big (as it should).  I haven't measured it (I'm not sure how one would go about doing that accurately), but I question whether that figure of 0.2 mm is accurate for the kit in general.

Second - even if it is, 0.2 mm is a mighty small measurement.  (For those of us who are accustomed to thinking in the English system - that's about 1/125 of an inch.) 

Third - yes, the wood grain of some pieces of wood (depending on the species of wood, its condition, its age, etc.) does result in grooves, ridges, and depressed areas that measure close to the equivalent of what Revell shows.  (Probably not half an inch, but certainly 1/8" and more.)

Fourth - any serious modeler who buys either of these kits surely will paint every visible part of it.  Modern hobby paints can be applied in incredibly thin layers, but they do add to the thickness of the plastic.  If the modeler applies any weathering techniques (I did a lot of dry-brushing on mine), the paint will be thicker.  And when we're talking about as tiny dimensions as we are here, the thickness of the paint (to say nothing of any clear finish the modeler applies over it) is significant.

Fifth - and most important - in good, serious scale modeling visual impressions often matter at least as much as precise mathematical measurements.  Some features of a real ship are simply too small to be represented accurately on the scale of a model.  (What would be the accurate thickness of a sail on a 1/96-scale ship model?  Would the edges of the copper bottom plating on a sailing ship really be visible if reduced to 1/200 actual size?  How thick should the plating of the tub for a 20mm gun be on 1/700 scale?  Or a flag - on practically any scale?  For that matter - should there be visible grooves between the panels of a 1/72-scale airplane model?)  The modeler, consciously or not, is constantly making judgments, not only about what the real object looked like, but also about how best to represent the real ship on the chosen scale.

And there's plenty of room for personal judgment and interpretation of such things.  Personally, I don't like the appearance of "set sails" on models, except those on very small or very large scales.  (In more than fifty years of modeling I have yet to see "set sails" on a model of a scale between about 1/200 and, say, 1/75 that have really impressed me.  The late Donald McNarry came mighty close - but he himself said he'd never been "halfway satisfied" with his "set sails."  Furled sails, in his opinion - and mine - are another matter entirely.) 

Does that mean that no modeler should rig a model with set sails?  Or that the 20mm gun tubs on a 1/700 battleship should necessarily be omitted?  Or that manufacturers ought to stop putting engraved detail on aircraft kits?  Of course not.  That sort of thing, in my opinion, should always be up to the individual modeler.  If it ever ceases to be so, I'll get out of the hobby.

The same goes for "wood grain" effects.  In my opinion, it's entirely appropriate for the grain of the planks on a large-scale model of a Viking ship to be visible on close examination.  I wouldn't suggest that it ought to be noticeable from across a room.  But if a person studying the model carefully from a distance of a foot or so can detect the wood grain, the model, in my opinion, will look more like a Viking ship than if the surfaces of it are perfectly smooth.

I've seen quite a few different approaches to the "wood grain problem" in plastic kits.  Most of them, to my eye, have been over-stated.  Heller may be the worst offender in that regard - though its later kits, such as the 1/100 H.M.S. Victory, certainly were superior than the ones from a decade or two earlier.  A comparison between early and more recent Revell kits is also instructive.  (Compare the "wood grain" on the decks of the 1/96 Cutty Sark, from 1959, with that Viking ship, which was originally released in 1977.  The "wood grain" of the Viking ship looks remarkably like what one finds in the excellent Imai kits from the same vintage.  In fact I've wondered more than once if that's a coincidence.)

The longer I take part in this hobby, the more conscious I am that there are lots of "right" ways to do things.  And as far as I'm concerned, the only person whose way is "wrong" is the one who thinks his way is the only "right" one.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2009
  • From: Klaipeda, Lithuania, Europe
Posted by Wojszwillo on Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:40 PM

jtilley


I don't think this point is worth getting into an ugly argument.



And why not? We talking about scale models or model-like toys?

jtilley


Third - yes, the wood grain of some pieces of wood (depending on the species of wood, its condition, its age, etc.) does result in grooves, ridges, and depressed areas that measure close to the equivalent of what Revell shows.  (Probably not half an inch, but certainly 1/8" and more.)



We talking about oak - wood that was used for viking's ship's. And i have'nt seen "bugrakes" with "teeths" of 10 or 12,8 mm in oak's planks on real wooden ships (not models) - historic replica's, that are aged ~ 50 years (50 years is too "much" as "living time" of viking's ship's on that era).

I can agree only on 1/8'' i.e. 3,175 mm - and thats is "normal". But 3,175 mm in scale 1/50 would be 0,0635 mm, and in scale 1/64 0,0496 mm - Revell's "wood grain" is'nt such "small" :-).

jtilley


Fifth - and most important - in good, serious scale modeling visual impressions often matter at least as much as precise mathematical measurements.  Some features of a real ship are simply too small to be represented accurately on the scale of a model.  (What would be the accurate thickness of a sail on a 1/96-scale ship model?  Would the edges of the copper bottom plating on a sailing ship really be visible if reduced to 1/200 actual size?  How thick should the plating of the tub for a 20mm gun be on 1/700 scale?  Or a flag - on practically any scale?  For that matter - should there be visible grooves between the panels of a 1/72-scale airplane model?)  The modeler, consciously or not, is constantly making judgments, not only about what the real object looked like, but also about how best to represent the real ship on the chosen scale.



Yes, agree. Some proffesional modelers overall does'nt understand what SCALE model can be made in 1/700 or 1/1200 scale...

jtilley


But if a person studying the model carefully from a distance of a foot or so can detect the wood grain, the model, in my opinion, will look more like a Viking ship than if the surfaces of it are perfectly smooth.



Sorry, but viking ship model look as minature viking ship becouse of the hull shape etc, and that does'nt depends on overscaled wood grain is visible or not...

jtilley


The longer I take part in this hobby, the more conscious I am that there are lots of "right" ways to do things.  And as far as I'm concerned, the only person whose way is "wrong" is the one who thinks his way is the only "right" one.



Du sublime au ridicule il n'y a qu'un pas (Napoleon)

Dixi :-)

  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:02 PM

Where is the "thumbs down" button, for what has become neither discussion nor debate, but a literally ugly and one-sided argument about one small point...?

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:00 PM

So sand off the grain if you don't like it. i'm stuck on that point with my Heller Victory, now that I'm up to the Upper Gun Deck and it is readily visible. But we are modelers, no?

Can't complain if there's not a better option available, if the original is otherwise accurate.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, November 22, 2010 2:55 AM

vonBerlichingen

Where is the "thumbs down" button, for what has become neither discussion nor debate, but a literally ugly and one-sided argument about one small point...?

Agreed.  I don't care much for the tone of Wojswillo's last two posts - but I think a great deal of "benefit of the doubt" is in order.  English isn't his native language.  If I tried to communicate in a modelers' forum using either of the two languages I took in college (French and German - many years ago), I'd probably declare war on somebody without knowing I was doing it.

The worthwhile points have been made.  I suggest we drop the matter.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Saturday, November 27, 2010 4:35 PM

Sometimes it seems that people forget what a scale model is. Somethings just can't be repliacated at small scales, nor should they have to be for people to enjoy them. If people are worried about wood grain on plastic ships then maybe plastic isn't the medium they should be working with. More often than not it seems that people get more enjoyment from critizing a kits flaws and debating it's short comings more than actually building the kit itself.

"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, November 27, 2010 7:16 PM

enemeink,

Your comment is a breath of fresh air! I couldn't agree more!  Enjoy building the kit; you can modify any perceived shortcomings!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Wednesday, December 1, 2010 12:25 PM

A friend who use to post on here did some scratch building on the revell kit. here's something to wet your whistles.

"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
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