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So many options.. What to pick??

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  • Member since
    November 2005
So many options.. What to pick??
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, May 8, 2005 1:30 PM
Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum hence this is my first post...

well I won't make this long, I've been building "stuff" since I was 2, from lego's to computers and now I would like to maybe do a wooden ship. but don't worry, I did my research.. I've read "alot" on these forums and others and found that the only kits I should go with are Model Shipways, Bluejacket, and Caldercraft (also known as Jotika), but i've also heard good things about mamoli.

Now keeping in mind i'm 16, and only have a limited budget.. I would like to try and keep the cost of the ship under 260. I don't like the small boat kits.. I would like something as big as possible but to keep difficulty and price down I thought about something like the rattlesnake, preferebly the mamoli kit (looks better :P)

if anyone has any comments/ suggestion on anything and everything they will be greatly apprechiated :)
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, May 8, 2005 3:06 PM
Well, if you've been reading the stuff in this forum the following may be superfluous, but here goes. Stick with Model Shipways, Bluejacket, and (if, unlike me, you can afford it) Calder.

You may hear some good things about about Mamoli from other members of this forum, but not from me. I can't claim to have seen all their kits; I've never bought one, and have no intention of doing so. But the ones I've seen have been characterized by non-existent research, lousy plans, shoddy materials, out-of-scale fittings, and outrageous prices. The company is typical of the "Continental plank-on-bulkhead" kit manufacturers who, in my personal opinion, are doing their best to wreck the hobby of scale ship modeling. I sometimes wonder whether the people in charge of those companies have any idea what a scale model is.

Having gotten that off my chest (regular participants are sick of hearing what I think of those Continental kits), I'll take the liberty of offering one other observation. Ship modeling is full of short but steep learning curves. A big model can take months or years to build. The newcomer usually finds such projects extremely frustrating, because he improves so fast. By the time he gets finished with the hull of his model, the stuff he did to it a few months earlier doesn't look satisfactory to him. That's one big reason why, as anybody who's ever worked in a hobby shop can tell you, the vast majority of those kits never get finished.

The Rattlesnake is a small, three-masted, full-rigged ship - not the most demanding project by any means, but a pretty sophisticated one that involves quite a bit of repetition. I'd suggest starting with something a little simpler. Something like the Model Shipways Phantom (a two-masted pilot schooner with beautiful lines), the MS Skipjack, the MS Emma C. Berry, or perhaps one of the Bluejacket fishing schooners. Any of those kits will produce a handsome scale model in a matter of weeks. And the investment in time and money will pay off later if you decide you do want to take on a more elaborate ship.

Hope this helps a little. Good luck. It's a great hobby.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, May 8, 2005 9:09 PM
thanks jtilley, I apprechiate your response.

I looked at the MS Phantom you reccomended and it would be considerabely cheaper and easier, but I don't like the fact that it has a pre-formed resin hull. I'd also like to note that I don't think i'm your normal begginer.. I've done other wood kits though not necessarily ships, and i've done plastic ships at that. I've also built numerous other things and know what it takes. But, I see your point and I do agree with you, the rattlesnake may just be abit too much yet. Therefore I was thinking of something in between?.. maybe one with a plank-on bulkhead?
I also want a harder one just for the sake of having a challenge when I build it.

I was just looking around and this is the first one I noticed, but what about something like the MS Bluenose? (well i don't like that in particular but just to get an idea.)... maybe something with cannons? lol
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, May 8, 2005 10:13 PM
I think you would get satisifaction with Model Shipways American Privateer. It's a beginners model but is plank on bulkhead, rigging one mast, building cannon assemblies, and scratch building the deck fittings. There are no shortage of wood, I did run short on wire but I screwed up a few times. You can rig all of some too since it is without sails and can be built so it appears it is launching ways. The model did not cost too much either. You will need to spend cash on paints, glue and some more specialized tools unless your resin kits used te same tools.
I am finishing mine up now and have started a second kit from them and am planning my first scratch built from plans in Ships in Scale.
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, May 8, 2005 10:28 PM
Regarding the Model Shipways Phantom - this kit has been through several incarnations. For a while Model Expo was indeed selling it with a cast resin hull. As a matter of fact I built one. (If anybody's interested, some pictures of it are posted in the "Gallery" section of the Drydock Models website: www.drydockmodels.com .) I had some reservations about it; in my opinion the basic concept was sound, but the hull in question left a few things to be desired. Apparently I wasn't the only one. The kit, it seems, didn't sell well in that format. It's been taken off the market; the one MerkavaM4 inspected must have been on the shelf for some time. The Phantom currently being sold by Model Shipways (via Model Expo) has a traditional, pre-carved solid basswood hull.

I think the kit cardensb is talking about is the one I mistakenly called the "Virginia Sloop." (I just checked the Model Expo website; the one I'm thinking of is labeled "Armed Virginia Sloop American Privateer 1768." Cardensb - are we on the same page?) I haven't seen it in person, but on the basis of the photos - and the firm's and the designer's reputations - I'm confident that it's a nice kit - and a genuine scale model. Not too pricey, a minimum of repetition, and fitted with an interesting armament. Looks to me like a great way to break into the hobby.

I've heard there are some minor problems regarding accuracy with the MS Bluenose, but it's basically a sound kit. So are the various Bluejacket fishing schooners. The Smuggler, to my eye, is a particularly handsome vessel.

One other point. Model Shipways, Bluejacket, and Calder/Jotika kits are famous for their excellent, detailed instruction manuals. Even the folks who like those Continental plank-on-bulkhead kits complain that their instruction books (or sheets, as the case may be) are inadequate. One more reason to start with an American or British kit.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 9, 2005 10:33 AM
TARGET, TARGET, TARGET... TARGET DESTROYED!
You are on target. Great kit.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 9, 2005 8:14 PM
Heh.. you know what, that's perfect.. that's pretty much all I wanted for starters, I think I might just go for it. But before I do, are there any other ships of similar characharistics that I may consider?

Oh and also, what else is needed with the kit? paint set? specialty tools?

Thank you again for your help ;)

EDIT: jtilley, I just looked at the pictures on drydockmodels.com and you did an amazing job on it! very nice!
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 11:13 AM
So which kit did you good for?
My starting tools include the following-
-xacto knife handle with about 5x #11 blades
-a small jeweler's saw with mitre block (cutting blocks of wood and brass strips)
-a steel ruler marked to 32's and metric scales
-a dial caliper to measure the wood in the kit and transfer measurements off the diagrams
-small hobby vise
-needle nose pliers
-needles of varios sizes with the little threading tools
-small paint brushes
-various sizes of sandpaper
-a dremel tool (rotary hand tool)
-a hole sizing gauge for when tapering to measure diametes quickly
-a pin vise (small hand drill) with lots of tiny bits that break often
-tweezers (i have 2 kinds one that locks onto the object and one that I have to squeeze)
-a large bucket to soak the strips in for a few hours
-lots of superglue and glue remover for when you glue your fingers to a part of each other
-small clamps to hold stuff while it dries
-i used my large sanding center that is normally for larger woodworking porjects for shaping blocks and tapering dowels (belt sander/disk sander combo)
If you already model you probably ave everything on hand.
as for paints some web sites sell the recommended sets as an add-on cost to the model.
I stuck with black, white, gold, bulwark red, hull yellow and hull tallow
don't forget a clear sealer like polyethalyene

Ships in Scale magazine has lots of good articles on filling your tool box too.


  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 11:10 PM
Actually I have about half of that list... I never did buy a pin vise and just ran out of sand paper.. lol, but should be easy to find. though i'm not very farmiliar with some of the tools/terminology you suggested.

-a dial caliper to measure the wood in the kit and transfer measurements off the diagrams
-needles of varios sizes with the little threading tools
-a hole sizing gauge for when tapering to measure diametes quickly
Could you clarify those for me?.. Thank you.

Also, I've been looking around lately since I don't really like that american privateer.. lol, it's too plain. The bluenose is actually more impressive to look at and hopefully to build, so I'm leaning toward it . I'm still not completely sure though. I think i'll do abit more research before I make my final descision.

Thank you again for your help.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 12:18 AM
-a dial caliper to measure the wood in the kit and transfer measurements off the diagrams
This is a measuring tool that gives very precise measurements on a dial. There are digital models too but cost more. You basically sandwich between the jaws a piece of wood you need a measurement for and then read the dial or digital display. I bought my a Sears in the same section as pin vises.
-needles of various sizes with the little threading tools
Sewing needles - various gauges are needed for the rigging thread. The little threading tool has a wire loop on one end. You push the loop through the eye of the needle, put your thread in the loop and pull the wire back out of the hole. It makes it easy to thread really small needles.
-a hole sizing gauge for when tapering to measure diameters quickly
This is a plastic sheet that has holes in it and the holes are marked with the diameter such as 1/4 in, 3/16 etc... Not really necessary you can use a caliper for the measuring but i already had one in my tool box and though it would help with tapering the masts.
If that still did not help just reply again, glad to help.
I picked the Armed Virginia Sloop because it was about $150, gave me a taste at planking, building fittings, rigging without sails, making cannons, and it did not look overwelming in the pictures. I also picked because I prefer armed ships.

I suggest you look to buy at Tallships on the web. (http://www.historicships.com/TALLSHIPS/Shipways/ShipwaysMenu.htm)
They offer a recommended paint set, beginners tool sets, and my two ships from them have included additional planking books.
The bluenose is a nice looking ship but I don't like sails and the AVS was about $20 more and had cannons and swivel guns!!

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:39 PM
ok, that's good, now I know what you meant by those descriptions, but wouldn't I need a plank bending tool? I noticed it was on the list at historicships.com for the reccomended tools. also, would any books help? are they worth the cost? oh, is it also necessary to have something to hold the hull when it's being planked or just the ship as a whole when working on it? would it be hard building when it's just sitting there?

thank you again.
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:20 PM
I've never built a plank-on-frame hull, but I've done several plank-on-solid ones. On that basis I don't think you need a special tool to bend the planks. In a Model Shipways kit they'll be made of basswood, which is a nice, soft material that can be bent pretty easily. That particular ship has some rather sharp curves in the bow; in those cases you may have to soak the planks, or notch the insides of them. Or maybe apply a little heat; for that purpose the fat part of a soldering iron works well. But I don't see much point in spending the money on one of those purpose-built tools.

The library of ship modeling books is a little weird. Most of them fall into two categories: (a) the ones by experts, who are understandably interested in demonstrating the most sophisticated techniques; and (b) the ones intended for beginners. Most of the latter, unfortunately, were written by people who never got beyond beginner status themselves. (A widely-distributed one that I most emphatically do not recommend is Ship Modeling From Stem to Stern, by Milton Roth. The pictures of finished models in it are nice, but the amount of misinformation in it is disgraceful.)

Another problem is that many of the classic books on the subject are getting old now. The ones by C. Nepean Longridge, George Campbell, and Harold Underhill, for instance, were great in their day but make reference to all sorts of materials and techniques that are obsolete now. There's a real dearth of good, up-to-date ship modeling books for newcomers to the hobby.

I suggest you start out by taking a good look at the instruction book that comes with the kit. Model Shipways instructions are generally pretty good; you're likely to find all the information you need there. If you want to go a bit beyond that, an excellent place to start would be How To Build First-Rate Ship Models From Kits, by Ben Lankford. He knows what he's talking about (I think he may have drawn the plans for the Virginia Sloop, as a matter of fact), and the book was published just a few years ago; the techniques, tools, and other products it describes are generally available. The book can be ordered from Model Expo (www.modelexpoonline.com), and it's quite reasonably priced.

You'll need some means of holding the hull firmly to your work surface. Several of the European model companies make fancy clamps that are designed for the purpose, but such things aren't necessary; in fact I question how sturdy they really are. The usual approach is to start the project by making a "building board" - a piece of plywood or other stable wood to which the hull timbers will be firmly but temporarily fastened as you make them. I suspect the kit instructions will have some good advice on how to make a building board. You want it to be firmly fastened to your workbench, but you also want to be able to move it around, in order to work on the other side of the model. My approach probably would be either to screw the building board to the workbench with removable screws, or just hold it in place with c-clamps.

On the general subject of work spaces - you'll find it far, far easier to build a model like this if you can arrange some dedicated space for it, where the model and the associated tools, etc. can be left standing while you aren't working on it. A model airplane or even a modern warship model can be built quite successfully on a kitchen table, and everything can be shoved out of the way when the family needs to eat. Good sailing ship models have been built that way, but life will be much easier for all concerned if you can get hold of some space in a basement or a garage. You'll be working on the model for several months, at least, and clearing everything away after every work session will be a major hassle.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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