Trumpeter USS North Carolina

I just wanted to say that the Trumpeter kit is very good. I have been to the USS North Carolina on many occasions. I have seen the ship in her haze grey color and the measure 32 paint job. I also have almost all of the books that the memorial sells that have pics of the ship. The staff at the memorial does an excelent job keeping the ship in great contition. There are planns to move the ship in the future so that the hull can be cleaned. They estimate that it will be gone for 4 months. Also, I have shot several rolls of film of the ship and the pics that I have provide a great reference point. True, the ship is without her catapults and the Kingfisher is off color but the ship still looks just like it did in WWII. The North Carolina does have something that the Washington does not. The North Carolina has an extra platform on her superstructure. Because of this it is easy to separate it from the Washington. Anybody out there building the Trumpter kit should visit the ship and take your instruction manual with you and make notes. I did that when I visited the USS Wisconsin in Norfolk. I found the staff there very helpful in pointing out things on the ship.

very true scottrc. Im trying to get my 8yr old intrested. He comes and looks but he still isnt ready to try. I don't want force it on him, if i do that he's just like me and would never touch them again.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jratz Well, at least we can hope that mass availability of cameras, especially digital, and the internet allow us to leave a much better pictorial rememberance of our "history" than previous generations were able to. John

I would also like to add "Model builders" as well. Without us and our soul searching ways of finding every tidbit of accuracy to how a ship looked in November of 1943 compared to how it looked in April 1944, or March 1964, future generations would not have three dimensional color representations to look at.
Scott

Interesting thread. I am a vet of Operation Iraqi Freedom. The band of brothers is alive and well. I lost my old man in Nov 2002 just before the War. Aside from other vets and men who've been there and done that he was the only one who could grasp some of the things I had gone through in my Marine Corps Career. I was talking to an ol retired Gunny buddy of mine (NAM). ( I got back July 4 2003) and he asked me if I enjoyed the fireworks. I know exactly what he was asking...did I jump. @$@#$ darn right I jumped! Some of those fire crackers sound just like AKs on the recieving end (if you know what I mean) So I asked him how long does that last. He says "Oh about 15 years!" I said great that's nice to know. Through out this whole shindig, I've buried brothers and it hurts. Now that I had to get out, it is my DUTY to teach my three kids that freedom is NEVER free of price, it is a gift from God and sometimes payment of that freedom against evil men must be paid for in blood. No kidding any chance you get thank a vet for what he or she has done for us, buy em a beer, maybe help em with their dinner bill at a restraunt, hell even a heart felt thankyou is more than enough...It was for me. It is imperitive that we preserve our history. If we forget we are doomed to repeat. I'll get off my soap box now.

Well, at least we can hope that mass availability of cameras, especially digital, and the internet allow us to leave a much better pictorial rememberance of our "history" than previous generations were able to.

John

Here here.

J

World War II submarines had rather different postwar experiences than most surface ships. When the war ended the Navy had no use for a lot of them. Some were updated to more modern configurations (the "Guppy" program, for instance), but sub technology moved so fast that quite a few were left as they'd been in 1945. They make particularly impressive "museum ships." Regardless of how many times one has seen "Run Silent, Run Deep" or "Operation Pacific," those first few seconds below decks in a WWII sub are impressive. How those people tolerated those cramped, mechanized quarters - even without depth charges being dropped on them - is beyond me.

The Kidd is an exceptional case. I've read a fair amount about her over the past few years (never been on board her - though I saw her from the nearby bridge once), but I can't remember all the details. My recollection is that generous and determined people have been on the prowl for quite some time, looking for various pieces of equipment to bring her back to her late war configuration. Maybe all the 20 mm guns are original to her, but I'm pretty sure some of the other weaponry has been gathered from other ships. The last I heard, the people in charge still had a considerable "wish list" of equipment they were looking for. From what I can tell, they've done an excellent job so far of bringing her back to her glory days. Imagine what it would cost, though, to do the same sort of thing to the North Carolina.

Museum and preservation types argue endlessly about such things. One view among academically-educated professionals is that it's improper to "restore" an old ship using pieces of other vessels; that the identity and authenticity of the ship are thereby compromised. Others argue that the ship can't tell the story if she doesn't look like she did at the most important time in her history. In most cases the issue is moot, because the people responsible don't have any choice in the matter: they restore the ship in what ever way they can afford.

Several ship preservation projects have failed because the folks responsible have had to make tough financial decisions. The biggest heartbreaker of them all, I think, was the Enterprise. If any American warship ever deserved preservation, that one did. Maybe the reason for that project's failure had something to do with what I was talking about earlier: the lack of enthusiasm among veterans and the general public that seems to follow the end of a war. If the Enterprise had eluded the scrap yard for a few more years, maybe the effort to save her would have worked.

The same thing happened, on an even more disheartening scale, in Britain - which, of course, had bigger financial problems after the war than the U.S. did. That the biggest surviving British warship of WWII is a light cruiser, the Belfast, is really depressing.

I'm sure this issue will come up again several times in the next few years. The hard fact is that not every important warship is going to be saved. (The joint where I used to work got phone calls every few months, asking why we didn't buy and "fix up" the S.S. United States. Good gawd.) Let's hope the decisions can be made intelligently, so our kids will be able to walk those decks and get at least some notion of what naval warfare used to be like.

Butch,

Thanks for your perspective. Interestingly, I often feel awkward at the other end of things. I go to air shows, talk with vets, and try to soak in whatever stories I come across. I've been like this since I was a kid.

But as I've gotten older, I've found it more difficult to talk to some veterans and hear their stories. Not because of them, but because of me. It dawned on me that I really can never understand just what those men (and some women too) went through. No matter how many books I read or documentaries I view, there will always be a gap in experience between the veteran and me.

Regards,

As a Combat Vietnam Vet ( No Hero stuff), but enough to not talk about it for 30 years except among my Vet Brothers. It just comes out strange trying to talk about your experiences unless you are with a Vet who has the same experience. When I do talk about the experiences I always found it easier to talk about my buddies experiences instead of mine.. Kinda like telling the story in the 3rd person. Hell I have found it just as difficult to translate my experiences on Submarines also for many of the same reasons. This inability or reluctence to communicate their experiences are not just a Vet thing. I'm sure people in many professions don't feel comfortable talking about their experiences to someone who would not fully understand them. It's really a modesty or respectful thing. It almost always brings up memories that are difficult to translate.. The Vet usually has to expose feelings he or she dosn't feel comfortable about doing. I have found that even in biographical war stories most writers will write about their experience in the 3rd person. I have also meet Vets who were very active and highly decorated for their exploits and they have no problem whatsoever talking about it. I.E. Audrey Murphy and Richard Marchinko, Robert Tuck and Chuck Yeager.. Go figure, like someone posted above everyone is different..

There's no rhyme or reason about vets, because each one dealt with his experiences differently. I know dozens of vets from my time as an air museum director, and some that experienced combat (fighter pilots, gunners, infantrymen) will talk about it for hours because they're thrilled that someone actually cares about what they did.

Others won't talk about it at all. I had a museum volunteer that passed away just before I left the museum, and it wasn't until I attended his memorial service that I learned he was a highly decorated infantryman with the 44th Div. during WW2. Two Silver Stars, two Bronze Stars, three Purple Hearts, and a DSC, yet in all the years I knew him, he never even mentioned he was in the Army. And he died with his experiences.

To most sailors, their ships are a part of their very being, since it was their home, their protector, and their universe for sometimes years on end. There's also a sense of pride in sailors that you won't find in most other branches.

As a sidebar, there are a few vessels that remain in their WW2 configurations. The USS Kidd in Baton Rouge is a late-war Fletcher in her 1945 Emergency AA fit, and still retains her 20mm. The USS Slater in Albany, NY, is a Cannon-Class Destroyer escort, and is still in her original configuration. There are also several Gato and Balao class subs that are in their WW2 rigs, I know of Ling (NJ), Pampinito (San Fran, CA), Cobia (WI), Cod (OH), and Bowfin (HI).

Jeff

Another big factor for these folks is time. It does different things to the memories of different people.

In my modern U.S. military history class every year I send the students out to do oral history interviews with people who can remember important events in military history. I've noticed in recent years that the Vietnam veterans are, in many cases at least, more willing to talk about their experiences than they were before. And the World War II veterans (generally speaking, with plenty of exceptions) are downright anxious to get their recollections recorded while they still can.

Historians have noted a pattern in the behavior of military veterans. For a few years after the American Civil War scarcely any books or articles about it were published, and the veterans on both sides tended to be extremely quiet about their experiences. Many of them formed small, local organizations in which they reminisced with their friends (and, in the case of the Southerners, debated who was to blame for what had happened), but that was about it. Then, in about the late 1870s, a big wave of Civil War commemorations started. Generals published their memoirs, The Century magazine published its "Battles and Leaders" series, Union and Confederate Memorial Day celebrations became major events, and there was a great boom in monument building. Something similar happened, on a smaller scale, in the 1920s and 1930s. That's when many of the big statues and other monuments got built at places like Gettysburg. The vets were getting old, and watching each other die in huge numbers. The survivors wanted to be sure the country didn't forget what they'd done.

In my lifetime the same thing has happened to at least two generations of veterans. In the mid-seventies little was said or written in this country about Vietnam. The veterans withdrew into themselves, or among their fellow veterans. (Huge numbers of them, when they got out of the military, settled in places like Jacksonville and Fayetteville, North Carolina, because the only people with whom they felt comfortable were other vets.) Then in the early eighties there was a boom in Vietnam-related books, movies, and TV shows. The veterans' organizations got bigger and more active. And the Vietnam Veterans' Memorial in Washington was opened - to the accompaniment of far more public interest than the government had expected.

At the moment we're seeing a burst of interest in World War II commemorations. Every time I go to the Air Force Museum, in Dayton, several new monuments to WWII squadrons have been erected in the memorial park. And it's no coincidence that the World War II Memorial in Washington just got built.

I find all this quite interesting and poignant. The reactions of military veterans to their experiences seem to be, at least to some extent, predictable. Historians, sociologists, and psychologists need to study all this a great deal more. If we can understand how the experience of combat affects people, maybe we can do a better job of appreciating and caring for the veterans.

Would'nt it have been wonderful if the WWII era USS Enterprise had been preserved instead of scrapped like junk . We should appreciate and support the North Carolina, Alabama, Texas, Yorktown, and the rest of the preserved ships, no matter there condition or location. I read an artical in National Geographic that says America is loosing most of the Cival War battlefields to commercial and residential developement at an alarming rate. It would seem greed wins out over history every time. Thanks,
emo07

QUOTE: Originally posted by jtilley Veterans seem to have widely varying reactions to their experiences - and that's completely understandable.

Sure, experiences will vary, and responses to service will too, though the men I've known who saw combat in WWII have generally not talked about it, and those who were not active combattants generally talk about it a lot. My uncle is one example -- he was a target for kamikazes countless times. My other uncle, a B-17 bombardier/navigator having flown numerous missions and then was in the midst of rotating over to Pacific duty to train on the B-29 when the war finally ended, is another example. He hated documentaries about WWII. I built the big Monogram B-17 when I was a kid, and he politely looked at it and praised me, but then quickly left the room.

He had some truly hair-raising experiences, but I learned them from my mother, not my uncle.

My father on the other hand did not see any combat, and he could talk about it for hours, and often did. (He was in a heavy AA battery, 90mm guns, in Europe.)

I visited the North Carolina maybe 20 years ago. (I saw crocs in the water next to the ship.) That visit is one of the highlights of my youth. My parents bought the Revell model of the ship in the ship's store, and I had a great time putting it together.

Recently, my wife's aunt, uncle, and their kids visited and did the same thing. They're working on the Revell kit now.

I'm glad to read that the ship is still in good condition and still provides a great experience for visitors.

Regards,

Veterans seem to have widely varying reactions to their experiences - and that's completely understandable. My father was a junior officer on board an attack transport during the latter part of the Pacific war, and never got tired of talking about it. Those six months of sea duty were a big feature in his life. (I remember the terrifying period, in the late sixties, when he was teaching me to drive. At one point I started to back out of a parking place into traffic. Dad yelled, "You can't do that! You're the burdened vessel!" He'd been out of the Navy for more than twenty years, but the International Rules of the Road stuck with him.) My father-in-law was in the Army during the last months of the war in Europe. A couple of years ago he and my mother-in-law took bus trip around Europe. One of the tour stops was a former concentration camp which, as it happened, my father-in-law's unit had liberated. He refused to get off the bus. He'd seen that place once; that was enough.

It probably isn't reasonable for us to expect those old ships to be restored to, and maintained in, their World War II configurations. Almost without exception, they got modified in some significant way right after the war. (The Navy almost immediately gave up on the Oerlikon 20 mm anti-aircraft gun; the number of those things that got taken off American warships and junked in 1946 and 1947 must have been in the thousands.) The modifications cost millions of dollars. Changing the ships back to their pre-1945 state would cost more than that - and, from the standpoint of preservation theory, they wouldn't be the real ships any more.

Imagine, for instance, what it would take to make the U.S.S. Yorktown look like she did in 1944. That would entail tearing off the flight deck and replacing it with one made of wood, in addition to all sorts of changes to the island and other parts of the ship. Then you'd have to find - or make - about a hundred full-size Hellcats, Helldivers, and Avengers. The cost would be utterly prohibitive - and even if the money could be raised, the result would be not the real Yorktown but a replica of her.

People who complain about the condition of any museum ship need to remember that when that vessel was in active service, several hundred people had full-time jobs maintaining her. Museum-type organizations just can't do that, and they never will be able to. They have to rely on fund-raising drives (assisted, in the case of the North Carolina, by a modest appropriation from the state every year), in-kind donations, and generous, energetic volunteers. For a long time the WWII museum ships have been relying on retired WWII veterans to do much of their volunteer work, from polishing brightwork to guiding tours. The day is rapidly approaching when that won't work. According to the last statistic I saw, American WWII veterans are dying at the rate of about 1500 per day.

I'm afraid that in coming years it may get harder for museum ships to sustain themselves. That's one reason why I always get a little nervous when somebody suggests "saving" another big warship. There's only so much money and generosity out there.

In the mean time, we should be extremely grateful for what we have. A visitor to the North Carolina needs to squint a bit and use his or her imagination. The 20 mm guns and the catapults are missing, and I suspect they always will be. But she provides the opportunity for a memorable experience.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jtilley I've spent a fair amount of time stomping around on board the North Carolina; she's about two and a half hours from where I live.

Thanks for the interesting review. It's true that it would be better to see the ship as she was as an active combattant, but then again the people who served on her might disagree -- my uncle served on a DD at the end of WWII in the Pacific, and he never wanted to go within a mile of a museum ship. It was a time he wanted to completely forget.

MBT,

It won't be until in FSM until the latter part of the year, because it has to be built, and of course, we work 3-4 issues out.

The kit does not have the Washington parts included, as the superstructure areas are different. The kit's deck section comes in three parts, forward (common) midship, and aft (common). All Trumpeter needs to do is include the new center section and some additional parts, and they've got Washington. If you can't wait, it's not too difficult to convert her.

Jeff

I've spent a fair amount of time stomping around on board the North Carolina; she's about two and a half hours from where I live. A couple of my students have done internships on board her. I used to be fairly well acquainted with some of the staff, but I suspect the folks I knew have long gone.

In some ways a visit to the great ship is a little disappointing. She's moored to a pier in a rather out-of-the-way area, across the river from Wilmington. Looking out from the captain's bridge one sees, not the thundering swells of the Pacific, but a dreary-looking swamp stretching off toward an industrial area in the distance. Some years ago it was established that the battleship was firmly stuck in the Cape Fear River mud. (I don't know whether anything has been done about that situation or not.) The water in the slip alongside her is reputed to be inhabited by several alligators - though I have yet to see one myself.

Many areas of the ship are not open to the public, and of course quite a bit of her World War II-vintage equipment isn't there any more. The last time I saw her she didn't have any catapults, for instance, and many of the 20 mm guns were missing. (I imagine most of those she does have are relatively recent replacements. I believe all the originals were removed shortly after the war ended - as were the catapults, when she started operating helicopters.) She does have a Kingfisher sitting on her fantail, though it's painted in a hokey color scheme (or was the last time I saw it).

On the other hand, she's in considerably better shape, and has retained much more of her World War II character, than most other "museum ships." By comparison with the Iowa-class battleships and the Essex-class carriers, the North Carolina and Washington underwent few major changes in their careers. The NC never got updated for Korea, Vietnam, or Desert Storm. To crawl around inside one of those 16" turrets is a real experience. So is a visit to the engine spaces - even the relatively small portions of them that are accessible to the public. And although finding money to maintain her is a constant battle, she is, generally speaking, in remarkably good condition. A few years ago her maindeck planking got replaced with some beautiful teak that was donated by the government of Burma. And at about the same time she got repainted with an authentic WWII-vintage "dazzle" scheme. If I'm not mistaken, that makes her the only surviving battleship painted in an authentic WWII camouflage measure.

I strongly recommend a visit to the North Carolina for anybody who's even faintly interested in warships. This isn't a bad time of the year for such a pilgrimage. During the next couple of weeks she's likely to be swarming with school kids on spring field trips, but after the first week of June, when school ends, there should be a partial lull in tourism before the big vacation rush starts. The best time for a visit is in the middle of the week. On a Wednesday or Thursday some parts of her may be practically deserted. The best way to appreciate her, in my opinion, is in near-silence, so you can really think about what you're seeing.

When you get finished on board the ship (or when you get thrown off, at 5:00), you may want to cross the bridge and take a look at the Wilmington waterfront. The old Cotton Exchange has been made into an interesting shopping mall (a great place to occupy non-nautically-oriented spouses), and there are quite a few good restaurants along the river. I recommend the seafood at Elijah's. My wife and I got engaged there - following an afternoon prowling around the North Carolina.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Larry_Dunn QUOTE: I'm scheduled to make a photo run on it in Wilmington, on the way home from the IMPS Nats in Atlanta. Oh man, John, there's gotta be no kind of inspiration like that kind of inspiration -- stand on the deck, look at the naval rifles ... imagine them firing ....

I'm a wonderful guy, may be I can get a special showing

John

Hey Jeff ... two questions: How soon in FSM and do they have USS Washington conversion parts enclosed?

QUOTE: I'm scheduled to make a photo run on it in Wilmington, on the way home from the IMPS Nats in Atlanta.

Oh man, John, there's gotta be no kind of inspiration like that kind of inspiration -- stand on the deck, look at the naval rifles ... imagine them firing ....

My Trumpeter BB-55 North Carolina is awaiting shipment at Great Models.
I already have the IronShipwrights 1/350 resin kit of same.
I have two of WEM's P/E for the Trumpeter kit on pre-order, asuming some might be useful on the ISW kit also.
I have all but one reference on hand & I'm hoping that last one arrives next month.
I'm scheduled to make a photo run on it in Wilmington, on the way home from the IMPS Nats in Atlanta.

I won't start work till after the IPMS-Nats.
I'm considering building the two in parallel.

And I'm not even a native Tarheel ....

John

I hope so Jeff, and i'm with you, hope to see more Trumpeter surprises.

Nice try PPVR, but I'm not saying a thing!!

My crystal ball tells me there's still lots of exciting stuff to come from Trumpeter.

Jeff

These Trumpeter guys are amaising, they are serious about 1:350 plastic ships, what will come next? Will we see more WW2 US Navy ships? i hope so, and some japanese would be great too.

We got our review samples today at FSM. My initial impression is that this will be a very nice kit. It certainly looks good in the box!

Jeff

Thanks Amtrak,
I cant wait to get mine. She looked good in that review!!
emo07

Steelnavy.com has a really indepth review of the kit. From what I understand it is already in production and for sale.