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Heller "Le Gladiateur" 1/200

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  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Monterey Bay, CA
Posted by schoonerbumm on Saturday, September 3, 2005 3:47 AM
Don't know how this train resurfaced, but I just happened to have one of Boudriot's books handy.

L'Indomptable was an 80 gun ship in service from 1788 to 1805. She was built in Brest to a design by J.N. Sane.

According to Boudriot's list in "Les Vaisseaux 74 a 120 Cannons", there was no "le gladiateur" built in France. I suppose she might have been built somewhere else and purchased.

I have the Heller kit, and have relegated it to storage, since I haven't been able find any reference to her or a painting or plan of a vessel with that extraordinary stern. She would have been a dog to sail.

Alan

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." Benjamin Franklin

  • Member since
    April 2004
Posted by Chuck Fan on Tuesday, June 14, 2005 2:51 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by aerowing

Also, the name plate in the kit also has "l'indomptable" on there (untameable in english I guess). Anyone knows what does that has to do with this ship? How would you rate this model? Appearently it shared the same hull with Aurora/Heller "royal louis". Thanks


I know there was a 80 gun ship called L'Indomptable in the French Navy around 1803. She participated in the capture of Lord Cochran's sloop speedy . She also fought in both battles of Algeciras Bay against the British Gibraltar squadron under Admiral Sumuarz. Hope this helps.
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, June 13, 2005 6:24 PM
Scott - That sorts everything out. I didn't think Crabtree had built a French ship of the line.

The Crabtree book you have must be the old one, with Bill Radcliffe's black-and-white photos. He was a master photographer. Ray Foster, who took the color photos for the newer book, was in the same category. The hours I spent watching him in action (I was the guy who had to move the models) were fascinating.

A great deal of lore, some of it near-mythological, has grown up around the Crabtree models. Much of their reputation stems from the brilliant design of the gallery in which they're exhibited. It was the work of Harold Sniffen, longtime curator (and one of the finest gentlemen I've ever had the honor to meet) and Robert Brushwood, exhibition designer (who left the museum before my time).

The truth is that the quality of Crabtree's workmanship, like everyone else's, developed over time and varied from model to model. The Venetian galleass, the French galley, and the English 50-gun ship are among the most beautifully executed ship models I've ever seen. The "Armed Brig, circa 1810" is one of several hundred models built to a set of plans allegedly representing the Continental brig Lexington that were published in Mechanix Illustrated magazine in the 1920s. Those plans are now widely acknowledged to be utter nonsense (which is why - over some loud protest from the Crabtree groupies - we took the name "Lexington" off the model). Crabtree' s model is neither better nor worse than plenty of others built to the same plans.

Crabtree was a fascinating and highly eccentric man with some remarkable talents. His models are artifacts of a particular time in the history of ship modeling. But people who regard them as the "be-all-and-end-all" of ship models are mistaken.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Monday, June 13, 2005 7:29 AM
I have to quite relying on my memory...... The book is "Color Encyclopedia of Scale Model Ships", 1972, Chatam Press.

The book is a collection of models from the Peabody Collection in London. The model is of the Royal Louis, and is from a Heller kit, and was built by A. Broughton.

I got it mixed up with Crabtree because there is a Crabtree model on the same page and the caption refers to all the models as Crabtree's. I ended up looking in the books glossary for the accurate information.

My mother bought the book during a visit to the Mariners Musuem in 1978 an I always kept the Crabtree brouchure from the musuem with the book.

Sorry for all this.

Scott

  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Friday, June 10, 2005 7:29 AM
John,
I'll get the name of the publisher and copyright date tonight. It has been awhile since I looked at the book and it is deep in my library. The title is "Scale Model Ships" and I got it in 1976. I think it was published in 1972 but then again, I rely on my memory about as much as a chicken relys on a fox not to eat him.

My guess that it is a conglomerate of models by various builders and Crabtree may be the only modeler mentioned? Crabtree, although legendary, has never sparked my interest in his techniques so I never really knew, until I got to FSM, about all the models he had built.

Again, after work today, I'll check and get some information on this model and how I came to the conclusion on why it was a Crabtree.


Scott

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, June 9, 2005 6:26 PM
Scott - In order to comment on this alleged Crabtree model I'd need to know what book the picture is in. The Crabtree collection at the Mariners' Museum doesn't contain a model of the Royal Louis. The closest thing to it is an English 50-gun ship from the reign of James II. That model doesn't have any masts or rigging. The only French ship by Crabtree in the MM is a seventeenth-century galley.

Crabtree finished his last model shortly after World War II, and sold the whole collection to the Mariners' Museum in, if my memory is correct, 1948 or 1949. That, of course, was before Heller - or anybody else - started manufacturing plastic model kits. I've done minor conservation work on all the Crabtree models that are at the MM. None of them has any plastic in it.

He did start one more model - a Swedish royal yacht. Nobody at the museum ever saw it; by that time the Crabtrees were on bad terms with the institution, and he was trying to keep the model a secret. So far as I know he never finished it. Crabtree apparently built some ship models for Hollywood in the thirties and forties (including some for the movie "That Hamilton Woman"), but I've never seen any evidence that any of them survive.

The visitor center of the National Park Service site at Jamestown has models of the Susan Constant, Godspeed, and Discovery that are labeled as having been built by Crabtree. I've never found out anything about those models. They look distinctly different from the ones in the MM; the Jamestown models have solid hulls. But they most emphatically aren't plastic. I don't think Crabtree ever did anything with plastic - and he scorned kits of all sorts.

Two books specifically about the Crabtree models have been published. The first has a text by Crabtree himself, and was published in the late forties. The photographs, all (except the one on the cover) in black and white, were taken by the museum's photographer of that period, Bill Radcliffe. (I hope I'm not mis-remembering his name.) The second book was published in either 1982 or 1983, with the photographs (all in color this time) by Ray Foster and the text by me. A slightly revised version of that second book (the revision mainly consisting of adding about a dozen typographical errors) was printed in about 1990. Unless the museum has published something since then, those are the only "official" publications about the Crabtree models.

I don't know what that picture in that book is, but if it claims to show a model of a French ship-of-the-line built by August Crabtree I'm 99.9 percent sure it's in error.

Heller's designers showed a great deal of ingenuity, and a considerable amount of artistic skill, in recycling all those hulls and other pieces. The problem was that they apparently knew virtually nothing about ships. Only a handful of the Heller sailing ship kits meet any reasonable definition of the term "scale model." In later years Heller got serious; its Victory and La Reale are surely among the best plastic kits ever. But most of the others are hard to take seriously.

It's interesting to speculate on how the airplane modeling community would react to similar stunts on its turf. Suppose a company slapped a couple of extra engines on a B-25 and called it an Avro Lancaster.

A couple of years ago Trumpeter issued a 1/32 F4F Wildcat whose fuselage contours were off by something in the neighborhood of half an inch. The modeling community set up an ear-splitting howl, and Squadron Mail Order refused to sell the kit until the manufacturer revised the molds - which Trumpeter thereupon did. But when a manufacturer produces a sailing ship kit that bears no resemblance to anything that ever floated, or recycles an eighteenth- century hull to make a "scale model" of a seventeenth-century ship, we're supposed to say, "well, that's nice." I'm sorry, but I can't regard such products as anything other than deceptively-advertised, overpriced junk.

The point is probably moot for all practical purposes, though. Few if any of those old Heller kits are still on the market, and the pipeline of plastic sailing ship kits has just about dried up. I miss them. The best of them showed the plastic kit industry at its very finest.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Thursday, June 9, 2005 9:47 AM
John,
You are not mistaking about the cross section issues of the Royal Louis. I have built this kit twice since it is about the only redition of a mid to late 18th century 1st rate, other than the "Victory", in a small scale.

I scratch built all the cross sectional transomes and also all the ladders and stairwells since they are too big. The cross-trees are too large and the top masts are too small and need adjusting as well.

I also have the Le GLadiator, which is a carbon copy of the Louis except Heller tried to make it a ship represented in the late 18th century and IMO is a better example of a model of an early Louis the XIV era ship. I have noticed that about Heller ships. They use the same hulls for ships that might have about 100 years difference between them. Other kits that come to mind is the Le Glorioux and Pheonix, and Stella Del Norte' and Le Comte'.

That is why I express that Heller kits are "builders" models. They make a good place to start, but would need a lot of creativity and skill to make it a scale model. Which is why I like building them. That and the fact I got about every kit they made back in the late 80's and early 90's when Squadron Mail Order was selling them at anywhere from $2 to $20 in their sales flyers.

John, I have a question about the Royal Louis that I hope doesn't bring up bad memories. I have an old Crabtree Collection photo book and it has a picture spread of the Royal Louis which I swear is the Heller kit. If not, then He did a great job at copying the enlarged cros-trees on the fore and main topmasts. Could you shed some light on this Crabtree model?

Scott

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, June 8, 2005 6:21 PM
I've been through several books looking for Le Gladiateur; so far no luck. I did find what seems to be an accurate list of the ships in d'Estaing's squadron; she wasn't on it. None of this proves anything whatsoever. My little private library isn't strong on French naval history.

Jake - I've spent quite a bit of time looking over that Golden Hind kit, but I haven't started it. I do think I found a goof in it (after considerable study): the bulwarks are too thin. They're about 1/16" thick - 6" on 1/96 scale. There's no way a 6" thick bulwark could include a timberhead and two layers of planking.

If I actually build the thing (big if) I think I'll depict the bulwarks as unceiled - that is, with no planking on the inside. (It seems some ships of the period were in fact built that way). That would involved gluing wood or plastic "timberheads" at appropriate distances apart inside the bulwarks.

Oh - I found two other mistakes. The door in the quarterdeck bulkhead and the one leading onto the stern gallery don't have handles. And if I have to look that hard to find a goof in a plastic sailing ship kit, it's pretty daggone good.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Wednesday, June 8, 2005 4:56 PM
John,

You played with your 'Hind yet?

Jake

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, June 8, 2005 4:04 PM
I'm no expert on the French navy, but quite a few years ago I did write a book about the British navy in the American Revolution and bumped into quite a few names of French ships that took part in that conflict. I just looked up the name Gladiateur in the index and couldn't find it. I can say with certainty that no ship of that name took part in either of the two major fleet actions between the French and British in North American waters, the Battle of Cape Henry (March 16, 1781) or the Battle of the Chesapeake (September 5, 1781). (The diagrams of those fights in the book have the names of all the ships on them.) I'm afraid my worn-out old memory doesn't go beyond that.

The best possibility - assuming Heller's description is correct (a dangerous assumption) - is that the Gladiateur was part of the French squadron under the command of the Comte d'Estaing that came to North America in 1778. D'Estaing made quite a nuisance of himself in the neighborhood of New York and Rhode Island for several months before taking his fleet on to the West Indies, leaving George Washington and the Continental Congress wringing their hands in frustration. I don't have a list of those ships handy.

The standard English-language source on the subject is Jonathan R. Dull's The French Navy and American Independence. It would be worth looking up the name of the ship in that book - but I wouldn't be terribly optimistic. Dull was a diplomatic rather than a naval historian; despite the title, he didn't really say much about the naval war on the operational level.

Does this kit have one or two gundecks? The Royal Louis had three. I remember buying that kit a long, long time ago; I believe it was one of Heller's first sailing ship efforts. My recollection is that it had a lot of parts and some fairly nice carved detail, but that the cross section of the hull was pretty hard to believe. (I could well be mistaken about that point.) In those days (the late sixties and early to mid-seventies) Heller was notorious for recycling hulls and other parts, sometimes producing reasonable scale models and sometimes concocting strange objects that, if enlarged to full size, wouldn't have been able to float. There were so many of them that I honestly never sorted them out.

Some years later (in the very late seventies) Heller did a two-decked, 74-gun ship of the line that was pretty good. It appeared under several names, one of which was Le Superbe. We had a good discussion of that kit here on the Forum a few months back.

I'm afraid I haven't helped much. Sorry. I'll do some digging through some other books and see what I can find.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Heller "Le Gladiateur" 1/200
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 8, 2005 2:34 PM
I've been trying to find information about the actual ship of this 1/200 heller "le gladiateur" I got. And so far there's nothing I can find, the search engine keep return information about the real gladiator. I don't know anything about this ship except the instruction manuel says it was part of the reinforcement sent to US during the American revolution. Also, the name plate in the kit also has "l'indomptable" on there (untameable in english I guess). Anyone knows what does that has to do with this ship? How would you rate this model? Appearently it shared the same hull with Aurora/Heller "royal louis". Thanks
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