WHAT COLOR IS "HULL RED" ?

i'll say 1 thing this is a hull of a topic

Thanks for everyones input into this topic. After airbrushing Tamiya XF-9 Hull Red, it was to dark in my opinion, almost plum or oxblood in color. I let dry and oversprayed with Model Master Insignia Red and I am happy wih the result.
Thanks again,
emo07

To throw in my worth - it also depends on the age of the modeller. When my 12-year-old daughter was picking out colors for her Titanic model, it said Flat Red on the box, and by God that's what we got! And as far as she is concerned, the end result of her first-ever model is perfect. What more could a proud Dad ask for?

P.S. - I will post pics soon ... I'm still clinging to "old fashioned" film so it takes awhile

QUOTE: Originally posted by emo07 I am building the Trumpeter USS NORTH CAROLINA and have a question about the hull color. The painting guide says to paint "hull red". The only paint I could find was Tamiya acrylic XF-9 HULL RED , but this color is very brown in color. Is this correct or do I need something more red ? Any suggestions would be helpful. Thanks, emo07

The color guide at the Titanic Modellers website recommends Rustoleum #1967 Metal primer, and the model-makers on the movie "Titanic" used that paint for the antifouling on the Titanic's hull. I think Rustoleum has changed their numbering system-- didn't find 1967 when I looked for it at WalMart, KMart and Menards) but most of their primers are that color or a shade or two off (well within the limits of the ambiguous antifouling range) and WalMart sells a generic oxide primer that is almost the same exact shade and cost only 94 cents a can.

Here's the Titanic color reference page:
http://titanic-model.com/articles/paints/WEBPAGE_Paint%20Reference%20Main%20Page/WEBPAGE_Paint%20Reference%20Main%20Page.htm#antifouling

And if you want accuracy, don't go by color photos, unless you know precisely how they've been processed.

John, while you and I both know how certain films will color shift over time (either towards red or blue), it's a little hard to tell guys without access to the resources we have to ignore color photos. Yes, a picture is worth a thousand words, but unless the color has shifted dramatically (along with everything else in the photo), color pics still give you a good basis to work from. For most modelers, that's good enough. We can continue this debate at the Nats...you going?

Jeff

Don't compare the USN's WW2 antifouling red to the current USN antifouling red--they are different colors. And if you want accuracy, don't go by color photos, unless you know precisely how they've been processed.

The US Navy in WW2 used Norfolk 65-A Antifouling Red. Our Colourcoats US 14 Norfolk 65-A is matched precisely to a sample of that paint. Similarly, our modern USN Antifouling Red (M 06) is matched to the FS reference for the current paint.

Cheers,
John Snyder
White Ensign Models

Tamiya XF-9 is actually far more brown than red, most likely because it's about the same shade as IJN hull red.

USN hull does vary in shade, but not when freshly applied. The amount of time a hull is in the water, the amount of movement the vessel does, the amount of time it sits at anchor, and even the theatre in which it operates can have an effect on the paint. Salinity, marine growth, pollutants, can all alter the paint's shade.

Model railroaders have several shades of paint that work quite well for USN subjects...Tuscan Red, Box Car Red, Oxide Red, and AT&SF box car red are all in my inventory...here's a photo of Pennsy in drydock in 1944. This is a classic, perfect example of hull red. Jeff



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I prefer enamels to acrylics and use Humbrol 177 'Hull Red'.
Sadly, this colour is NLA from Hmbrol, so I'll have to think again when my last 2 tinlets run out!

I checked with a source:
The antifouling red is a dark red. The color of the paint is not a major concern of the USN. The main idea is to supress the amount of growths on the ship and make it easier to clean them off. Redish brown is probably the best description.

emo,
If my memory serves me correctly, actually the Tamiya XF-9 hull red color isn't much off from the red lead that I recall from my navy days. The U.S. Navy antifouling red paint by White Ensign is also a brownish red, just not quite as dark as the Tamiya brand. So guess it basically comes down to you using whatever you have available at the time. I used the Tamiya hull red on the Arizona I'm currently working on, and it looks okay to me. But of course, I just got back into model shipbuilding so what do I know?

Mike

Hey jtilley,
Great story there! That story sure brought back alot of memories for me. Sure remember those days as a lower ranked enlisted man, and having to do my share of chipping and painting. And your Dad was right on target about navy zinc chromate being a sickly yellowish color. Was then, and still is. Just glad I wasn't a Boswain Mate, and had to paint for a living.

I have a picture of the USS Texas in dry dock, the hull red color is a orangish pink. Ive also seen it from dark red to a bright red, so it can even vary as to when the ship was in the water.

Ric

Speaking of primers - I've mentioned this before in other threads, but I'll take the liberty of passing it on again.

During WWII my father was a junior officer on board an attack transport that, though she never came anywhere near the fighting till after it was over, provided Dad with fifty years worth of anecdotes and trivia. One example was his story about primer.

Apparently red lead, which had been the standard, general-purpose primer in the prewar years, was scarce during the war and was used primarily in shipyards for major components of new construction. The primer issued to Navy ships for the standard routine of repainting was a zinc-chromate mixture, which, according to Dad, was a sickly, slightly greenish yellow.

The standard shipboard routine, of course, involved constant scraping and repainting of just about everything. ("If it moves - salute it. If it doesn't move - paint it.") The drill - hour after hour, week after week - consisted of chipping off the old paint (thereby keeping anbody within a 100-foot radius from getting any sleep), brushing on a coat of the primer, letting it dry a few hours, and finally applying the grey (or deck blue, or whatever) finish coat. (Dad recalled that "some of our great geniuses" tried to save themselves some time by mixing the finish coat and the primer. The result was a particularly disgusting green, which the officer in charge made them heave overboard.) Just about every piece of metal on board a ship got that treatment periodically. The only exception was the exterior of the hull, which was off-limits while the ship was under way.

As a result, at any given moment a lot of spots on the ship's interior and exterior would be yellow. The spots would vary in size from a few square inches to a few square feet - and their location would vary by the day or hour.

I once built a model of Dad's ship (U.S.S. Bollinger, APA-234), based on the old Revell attack transport kit, and gave it to him for Christmas. The look on his face when he put on his bifocals, took a close look at the model, and saw those miniscule yellow spots was something to see.

It's important to make it a dull yellow - and don't overdo it. You should only see the yellow spots if you examine the model carefully. If they're visible at first glance, they're too conspicuous. And they should be in the sort of irregular shapes that would emerge when a gang of none-too-enthusiastic sailors were told to chip the old, loose paint off something.

I've finished a couple of WWII-vintage USN ship models this way, and the yellow dots always get grins of recognition from veterans.

QUOTE: Originally posted by MBT70 In the vernacular, sailors refer to the color as "red lead," because it once contained high amounts of lead to resist corrosion. That's also why it has a brownish tinge to it. As you may imagine, today's red lead has other chemical contents to replace the carcinogenic lead and the red hulls on newer ships are closer to a true red.

When I was in the Navy "red lead" was a primer used on steel surfaces. Aluminum was primed with zinc chromate which was kind of lime greenish if I remember correctly. Everything got a coat of red lead before paint.

We've taken this up several times in the Forum. The bottom line is that, though I'm sure official "hull red" labels have appeared on paint cans at various times, there is no one color that can accurately (and universally) be labeled "hull red."

Anti-fouling bottom paint (which is what we're talking about) has been produced in different formulas by different manufacturers in different countries at different times over a period of about 125 years. The use of it isn't governed by the precise mixing rules that modelers feel obliged to apply to camouflage paints. (In my opinion a lot of the arguments among modelers about "correct" paint shades have little to do with reality - but that's a topic for another post.)

Take a look at a row of six U.S. Navy vessels and you'll probably see six shades of bottom paint - including some that's got a distinctly orange cast, some that looks more purplish, some that's brownish, and some that's oxidized to the point of leaning toward a revolting, dark brownish pink. And if you look at a warship (or merchantman) that's in drydock after having spent a prolonged time in saltwater, you'll see that the color varies a great deal from one part of the bottom to another.

My suggestion: if you don't like the "hull red" color as it comes out of the bottle - change it. As long as you keep the change with in reason (I'd recommend staying away from chartreuse or sky blue), nobody will be able to prove you're wrong.

Thanks MikeyG, MBT70, and Tigertankman!!
I have the Tamiya XF-9, but it just seems too dark. I will probably use it anyway.
emo07

Tamiya makes XF-9 Hull Red Acrylic

In the vernacular, sailors refer to the color as "red lead," because it once contained high amounts of lead to resist corrosion. That's also why it has a brownish tinge to it. As you may imagine, today's red lead has other chemical contents to replace the carcinogenic lead and the red hulls on newer ships are closer to a true red.

As an aside, the classic movie "Operation Petticoat" featured a pink submarine because the supply of red lead was so low they mixed it with white to cover the whole boat. But, before they could apply a top coat of Navy gray, they were attacked by Zeroes and had to push off with the pink paintjob. Nice babes in the flick, too ... they rescued a team of Army nurses and added them to the crew for a while .... ;)

emo, naval ships are actually painted with a paint called antifouling red or norfolk red. White Ensign Models in the U.K. makes a line of colourcoat paints that are the accurate colors for both WWII era, and modern U.S. naval ships. Also make accurate colors for several other countries naval ships. The paints come in 14ml tins, and cost around $1.60. These paints can be purchased over the internet from several sites. The Ship Camouflage site@www.shipcamouflage.com, and The Floating Drydock site@www.floatingdrydock.com both carry this line of paints. Hope that this info helps you out.

Mike